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Topic ClosedDestruction of historical remenants:Ottoman Ajyad Castle in Mecca

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Destruction of historical remenants:Ottoman Ajyad Castle in Mecca
    Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 04:32

That is the main reason why Alevites and many people are not in mosques. I will never go to a mosque and never call my self muslim while it is ruled by fanatic people who are against any kind of a discussion. Alevites are not in mosques because they can not enter the mosques. They say lets do this in Turkish and you guys say, go to your Cem House and do what ever you want there.

Realy? are you alevi? you are talking nonsense, why dont alevi do their namaz in their home. Noone is banning alevis to come mosque. I  think you should expand your knowledge about this. Alevis(some of them accept) are refusing namaz itself, not arabic namaz. Noone say them go Cem House, are you sure, you live in turkey? They choose to go Cem House, this is not something wrong, and they dont need any reason to go Cem House. They choose to go.

By the way,Mosques are ruled by Turkish goverment, not fanatics. As you know, turkish goverment was choosen by people, and Turkey is a secular country.

I remember, the transsexual Bulent Ersoy also backed the arabic praying and ezan. Always fanatism requires psychological problems  in their home?

yes when I look, turkish nationalist fanatics near my house, this is also what I think.They are mostly agresive  people. Instead of  talking, they accuse people  with becoming traitor.

Anybody should do whatever they like. If you want to pray in the superior race Arabic language Mortaza, you are wellcomed to do that.

Nonsense, I didnt said It is superior.

Mortaza, your Arabic Nationalism divided the mosque, and continuing to divide.

Again nonsense, I have no reason to become arab nationalist, If one day, I decide to become a nationalist, I will become Turkish nationalist. I am turk, why should I care for arab nationalism. It looks like, instead of discussing, you accuse me something complately I am unrelated.

Regarding Ezan, it is an announcement, should be in Turkish.

Well, for someone who dont enter mosque, why are you caring this, IIRC, you were an atheist.

It can be Turkish or Arabic, It is another question, but It should not be changed because of turkish nationalism. If  It was changed, It would be again for islam itself.

Interestingly people who dont go mosques, interest langauge of ezan. isnt this a little weird.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 04:45

By the way,Mosques are ruled by Turkish goverment, not fanatics. As you know, turkish goverment was choosen by people, and Turkey is a secular country.

I can not share that sentiment.

yes when I look, turkish nationalist fanatics near my house, this is also what I think.They are mostly agresive  people. Instead of  talking, they accuse people with becoming traitor.

That is what I say, you cropped by paragraph. Read the whole. I said, islamists, nationalists, seperatists...

Nonsense, I didnt said It is superior.

Again nonsense, I have no reason to become arab nationalist, If one day, I decide to become a nationalist, I will become Turkish nationalist. I am turk, why should I care for arab nationalism. It looks like, instead of discussing, you accuse me something complately I am unrelated.

Well your paragtraph clears everything, so in this case I am wrong. I should have understood that you were against Turkish racism, do not worry I do not love it more than you.

Well, for someone who dont enter mosque, why are you caring this, IIRC, you were an atheist.

I am not an atheist. Non-muslim does not mean Atheist.

It can be Turkish or Arabic, It is another question, but It should not be changed because of turkish nationalism. If  It was changed, It would be again for islam itself.

Definitely agreed.

Interestingly people who dont go mosques, interest langauge of ezan. isnt this a little weird.

My words are just humble advices and comments. Fanatical nationalism, islamism will drift people away from these events.

Racist Turks drove me away from nationalist, patriotic thoughts like religious fanatics drove me out of mosques. In overall these are my comments. I do not say, everything should be in Turkish , and I do not want it for nationalism. It is for Islam, people will be less divided. Kurds should have their own language, Turks will have their.

If we did not have strict nationalist and religious doctrines over us, there would be no Alevite, Sunni, Shiite division. LIkewise if we did not have fanatic nationalist movements, we would not have a problem of traitor inflation. You know anybody who says I am not a nationalist is traitor.

Americans are not religiously strict and they are not racist. but they are patriotic and they are very very pious. They have never encountered a religious pressure, so that they like religion. They have never encountered a racist pressure and they are now patriotic.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 04:48

Do you remember the former coach of Milan and Italy, Arrico Sacchi, I think his name was.

He never played football. When they criticize this, he replied, a jockey should not be a horse, if he wants to ride it.

People should not ve a Muslim or a Sunni/Shiite muslim to make comments on Islam. After all Bernard Lewis is a real authority on this issue. He is neither muslim not a middle easterner..

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 05:07

Well in turkey, turkish ezan was a nationalist campaign. It was not wanted by muslim but by nationalist.

otherwise I am neutral about this topic, afterall, Ezan is calling people to mosque.So people should understand it.But It is also an universal calling, You know what is ezan in germany, Turkey or US, because of  one langauge. So I am undecided about this.

But aim is important.

He never played football. When they criticize this, he replied, a jockey should not be a horse, if he wants to ride it.

People should not ve a Muslim or a Sunni/Shiite muslim to make comments on Islam. After all Bernard Lewis is a real authority on this issue. He is neither muslim not a middle easterner..

well, I agree, commenting is true and necessary. I am wrong about this. Lets hope, It would not forced to people.(Like it happened before)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 09:42

It's too bad that you let other's behaviors influence your decision to enter a mosque HulaguHan. We are all entitiled to pray there.

Azimuth. The salat (namaz) is in Arabic. I accept this. In fact the key,  'Fatiha suresi', should be in Arabic. My point of contention is that all moslems need to know what they are praying about and this comes from understanding the Koran in ones own language. As I mentioned before we all know what the Islamic beliefs are. As for the Ezan this could be in any language that brings people to the mesjid. Thats why it is called a call to prayer. Even though I go to a mosque with the Arabic ezan, this makes no difference in the point I am making. Regarding the Koran, it is and will stay in Arabic. Yet one's undestanding of it needs to enter the conscious mind. And this is through forthought. This is by a language that each person can understand. If one has doubts or questions about content one could ask others who are more knowledgeable for gathering the info.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 10:52

Originally posted by Iranban

Well you were the one who began with personal attacks, when you had nothing more to say 

I heard a similar argument (you are the one who started it) in my kindergarden years . I'm just glad you stopped posting other people comments and comment on them without reading.

Originally posted by HulaguHan

My words are just humble advices and comments. Fanatical nationalism, islamism will drift people away from these events.

I totally agree. Extremism in both sides is a terrible thing.

Miller,  prove what point? Quran is already translated already in other languages. Arab scoring points on both life? Are you talking about Basketball?

Dude, it is simple as nana nini. Quran has its meaning translation in almost all languages. But those are not Qurans. Only Quran is the one that comes with its original text. You can understand the Quran reading its translation, other than that, what extra advantage you gain from calling Quran itself?

Sorry, your talk still with no examples. I cannot grasp your point how is it a nationalism to have things in their origin, but call their translations a translations and not an original work. This is a no-brain common sense.

And Yeah, Islam will be the same if we liked or not. You want Azan in Hindu, you want prayer in Albanian, won't work. 1400 years already proved that. Work on something else. Like inventing a new religion. I said it is easier. Seikhs did it, so it is not hard. just pick a Guru and write a book in your spare time



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 12:08
Nice Comeback, how come it took you so long to reply that to such a small statement? maybe you failed reading it until now
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 12:10

Did you hear about something called travelling?  

And yes, I read it twice so I won't embarrase myself as you did to yourself << (copyrighted please, you cannot have each posts with a smily as mine)



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 12:26

^

So it takes you extra long time to read such a short comment?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 12:32

yeah, I was doing nothing in my life than just waiting for your great posts

hmm, I'm now certain you don't understand English as I thought you would. No problem, I will translate to you the word travelling in Farsi. Dear, I was in ﻥﺩﺭﻜ ; . comprendas?

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 12:40

Wow, where are your sensibilities? Inventing a new religion? Tell us. If we do not read Arabic who are we to learn the religion from? The bright students of hadith? Islam has been around but the understanding of it and the Koranic ayats will be studied for many more years. Scientific discoveries varify much of what was once unknown by past 'scholars'. Their is much to learn and discover. Conservative blindness will not get anyone further in knowledge.

We already shared our different opinions on the ezan. On the other hand, personal prayers to Allah are from oneself to the All-Knowing, in any language. He will understand. Salat is in Arabic.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 12:48

Uha, as I said. Please leave Islam as it is and donnot tailor it and cut it and glue it as you wish. If you wish for inventing a version of Islam where it fits your wishes, then I encourage you to invent a religion rather than using the name of Islam. Please don't pollute it further

Funny enough, tons of excelling scholars came from non-Arab background. The largest and most authoratative book of Hadith for most muslims (especially sunnis) is collected by Imam Bukhari. What is the difference? they had two brains and you got one?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 12:50
Originally posted by ok ge

yeah, I was doing nothing in my life than just waiting for your great posts

hmm, I'm now certain you don't understand English as I thought you would. No problem, I will translate to you the word travelling in Farsi. Dear, I was in ﻥﺩﺭﻜ ; . comprendas?

 

 

I see you were travelling, so you could not answer my post, but you could answer others posts

And what's farsi? Je ne comprends pas  

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 12:52

I told you don't post before stopping and thinking. Check the time, I haven't posted anything for about 24 hours in all forums.

  How old are you again?

Lemme stop here. I myself feel going back 15 years in the past.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 12:58
Originally posted by ok ge

Uha, as I said. Please leave Islam as it is and donnot tailor it and cut it and glue it as you wish. If you wish for inventing a version of Islam where it fits your wishes, then I encourage you to invent a religion rather than using the name of Islam. Please don't pollute it further

Funny enough, tons of excelling scholars came from non-Arab background. The largest and most authoratative book of Hadith for most muslims (especially sunnis) is collected by Imam Bukhari. What is the difference? they had two brains and you got one?

It is evident that with your mentality you will be stuck in the middle ages. Neither you nor I have created or are creating a new religion. But I will question it, especially being a moslem myself. It is to my own benefit. I will challenge you and the likes of whom rely on heresay and use it as a basis of religious guidance.

Instead of invent it is more proper to say that I am doubting centuries old policies that are pushed onto the naive and the novice.

Oh, I know much about Bukhari's book and his chain of stories two centuries after the prophets death. I do not need it. But if I do need such for religious guidance than perhaps you can tell me why and enlighten us.

* No need for an emoticon.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 13:08

Originally posted by Seko

It is evident that with your mentality you will be stuck in the middle ages. Neither you nor I have created or are creating a new religion.
 

I think you misunderstood me. We speak the same idea. Quran is in Arabic, its translation can be in any language. Azan in Arabic, and Namaz too (cause you recite Quran again). Prayer to God can be in any language. Where is the middle ages mentality  here? In fact, the post was not directed to you senor.

Originally posted by Seko

Oh, I know much about Bukhari's book and his chain of stories two centuries after the prophets death. I do not need it. But if I do need such for religious guidance than perhaps you can tell me why and enlighten us.

Again, don't worry, not everything is directed to you. you can cool down. You will notice that I use names when i direct my points to any person. There are others who read our posts by the way and they can learn from it. Right Miller & my other persian friend?

guys, Im off for another another 24 hours, limit your typing to shorter thana novel so i can follow  (still uses smilies)



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 13:44
In the heat of the moment I tend to jump in with my opinions. Yet this is an open forum where even my niblets are open for display. So, my kind regards in return.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 13:53

Well in turkey, turkish ezan was a nationalist campaign. It was not wanted by muslim but by nationalist.

Mortaza, it was not. Why do you come up with this idea? Turkish Ezan and many revolutions like this was to make people understand what they are doing.

If these revolutions was nationalist, why are we using Latin Alphabet now, instead of Orkhun Turkish script?

If you cathegorize Ataturk with people like NIhal Atsiz, sorry I would advise you, read Ataturk more.

It was for Islam, it was for people to understand Islam. Never forget, the traslation of Koran was also done by so called nationalists of Turkey.

Let me tell you again, your family can know Arabic and Arabic scripts but 99% of Turks never learned Arabic and Arabic Alphabet, and did not know what was being announced in the mosques.

Anyway, it occurs because Turkey is poor. When Turkey becomes rich, it will be Turkish again, like the education will become Turkish. Poor countries have politicians who likes to use religious events...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 14:20

Let me tell you again, your family can know Arabic and Arabic scripts but 99% of Turks never learned Arabic and Arabic Alphabet, and did not know what was being announced in the mosques.

No, they dont. I am not saying this is true or false, everyone know what is aim of Ezan, even If they dont know meaning of it. But I dont think, there is big problem for Turkish Ezan. I dont think It is against islam.

If you cathegorize Ataturk with people like NIhal Atsiz, sorry I would advise you, read Ataturk more.

Ataturk was not like Nihal Atsz, but I dont think he care much for Islam. He maybe be even atheist. What he cared for is his nation. Deleting arabic words are purely nationalist, and his aim was nationalist.Infact, He try to change our way of living, he did it somewhat, and failed somewhat. I am not anti-Ataturk.It would be stupidness to refuse such hero,(He helped Turkish people much) but I dont think his main interest is islam.

Anyway, it occurs because Turkey is poor. When Turkey becomes rich, it will be Turkish again, like the education will become Turkish. Poor countries have politicians who likes to use religious events...

I dont think, It would be happen again, maybe people interest religion more, It can become again. But without knowledge people refuse it.

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 15:51
Originally posted by ok ge

I told you don't post before stopping and thinking. Check the time, I haven't posted anything for about 24 hours in all forums.

  How old are you again?

Lemme stop here. I myself feel going back 15 years in the past.

Sure

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