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Topic ClosedDestruction of historical remenants:Ottoman Ajyad Castle in Mecca

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Destruction of historical remenants:Ottoman Ajyad Castle in Mecca
    Posted: 05-Sep-2005 at 19:33

Built in 1780, The Ottomans built the al-Ajyad Castle in Mecca to protect the city and its Muslim shrines from invaders. The castle was torn down by the Saudis in 2001 to make way for a trade center and hotel complex. Turkey called this a "cultural massacre."
    (SFC, 1/8/02, p.A6)

What do you think of this? What are the limits to destruction of prior work and remenants of historical eras? What are the priorities?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2005 at 21:11
The destruction of the castle was needed for a trade center and a hotel complex? Maybe the hotel complex is designed for pilgrimage and will constitute much more benificial than the castle. I mean the net positive impact at the end.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2005 at 21:18

Well Pharoah, I think it is truely a cultural massacre. Lemme explain why:

1- A trade center is not at all needed in front of the holy mosque of Mecca

2-Hotel complex! well, these will be facing the mosque directly and probably will be new fancy hotles that charges a lot. So, they are not hotels needed for average Hajji, but for affluent rich people. And even if it was to serve and to accomodate more pilgrimage, I don't think destroying an over 220 years castle just so they can be closer to the mosque justify that. That is history. That caste is built by the Ottomans, the Arab revolution of 1916 started from  the steps of that castle too.

3- I used to set on my grandmother house steps and i can see the castle lighted in night with green light. Now it is gone and only ugly hotels will be erected there . When are we going to learn to preserve our history?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2005 at 22:27
Originally posted by ok ge

I don't think destroying an over 220 years castle just so they can be closer to the mosque justify that. That is history. That caste is built by the Ottomans, the Arab revolution of 1916 started from  the steps of that castle too.

Ok, i understand that. But I did a quick search and I found that on the Saudi Embassy website on Washington DC:


The Saudi Governments plans for the Ajyad Fort, which is not listed by UNESCO as a World Heritage site, have called for its rebuilding by experts in the same traditional way it was first built and at the same location, albeit not on Bulbul Hill. This action conforms with international conventions and agreements that allow the relocation of antiquities to other sites for the greater good.

So if they are moving it to another location for a greater good, isn't this follow the international agreements?

Also, why is the turkish government so angry? they turned Haja Sophia in Istanbul from a cathideral to a mosque! That is even worst.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2005 at 23:14
How insane is that... maybe everybody should do the same..

Istanbul, lets move the Hagia Sophia, as say we need to have metro entrance there.., or its in a tourist location so we will construct a hotel there.. come on..

Turkish government didnt turn it to a mosque, it was done a couple of hundred years ago, the Turkish goverment turned it into a museum..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2005 at 23:48

Originally posted by baracuda


Istanbul, lets move the Hagia Sophia, as say we need to have metro entrance there.., or its in a tourist location so we will construct a hotel there.. come on..

I am not debating that removing Ajyad was a good decision. It is the Saudi Government decision and I am not going to defend governments' actions.

However, Im only saying that moving historical subjects for a greater good is a right that cannot be disputed. For instance, in Egypt here, we moved Abu Simbel Pharoanic temple because we needed to build the El Aly dam to control the nile river water flow and prevent seasonal flooding. Im not talking about building a metro entrance! 

Also, even if it was not the turkish government. Who gave them the right to change Haja Sophia from an orthodox cathideral to a mosque and later to a meuseum? Take a look inside, it is like a mosque with prayer mats and everything. Funny enough, Ommar the caliph in 638 AD way before the Ottoman had a better sense of protecting historical properties. He didn't destroy any churches there, and even further, he was offered to pray inside the Church of Nativity but he refused so it won't be taken as an excuse and be turned to a mosque.

So again, what is the big deal about moving a castle??

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 01:15
How in the hell can you compare the 2 events? Even the Turks did convert hagia sophia into a mosque did it occure any damage to the church? Who gave the right to do it? well, I might have to check my history books to find out to whom the Turks actually asked to see if they can convert it. Who gave you the right to move Abu simbel pharoanic temple?

funny enough? today you can see Christian Cross and Islamic scripts under the same roof in Hagia Sophia.I don't know what you call it but we call it harmony, tolerance, universality.





it seems to be you have lost your sense of humor after Caliph Ommar.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 01:46

Originally posted by erci

I don't know what you arabs call it but we call it harmony, tolerance, universality.

Hmm, so now Pharoah represent all the Arab world? I guess you didn't read any replies from the begining and you jumped to the end...

PLEASE stop generalization...generalization is only for lazy peoples who donnot want to think in details.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 02:06
I read it all and appreciated your thoughts.I wish everbody have the same manner as you do
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 02:19

Originally posted by erci

  Who gave you the right to move Abu simbel pharoanic temple?

Do you have a phone book? Ok, find me Ramsis phone number to call him. Or you know, maybe I can walk in Cairo and ask permission from pharoahs. Hello!! They are gone! But for you to enter Istanbul while there are christian there and convert their biggest church in front of them to a mosque, THAT you need a permission for. Understand now? or too much kebob today?

Originally posted by erci


funny enough? today you can see Christian Cross and Islamic scripts under the same roof in Hagia Sophia.I don't know what you call it but we call it harmony, tolerance, universality.

Oh yeah! Tolerance...Let me take your church my dear christian and convert it to a Mosque and place Islamic scripts there. See, tolerance, beautiful, right? 

What do you expect from people who even deny a whole genocide!!



Edited by Pharoah
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 02:29
I rest my case
"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 02:39
Originally posted by Pharoah

What do you expect from people who even deny a whole genocide!!

Ok, do you read our topic for today? yes, it is not about genocide. Maybe a different topic out there.

To bring you back to the topic, it is basically, can we destory or even move historical subjects and remenants? and if we can? what are those criterias that allows us to do so?

Moving Abu Simbel might be a necessity because of the essential need to control flooding in the Nile and store water. Now don't tell me we need the trade center and the hotel compelx really bad? Do you understand the difference now?

Much worst, if you destroy historical subjects because you don't like them. Im not sure about my government. But im sure that Taliban destroyed that ancient buddha statue because of hatred.

Finally, are you coptic christian? You can open a whole topic about Haga Shopia somewhere else. Stick with the subject here....thank you

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 02:43

Originally posted by ok ge

Finally, are you coptic christian? You can open a whole topic about Haga Shopia somewhere else. Stick with the subject here....thank you

No, Im Muslim. Didn't I use Omar example? Let me rest my case on the following:

Turkish official underestimate differences with Saudi Arabia over Ajyad castle
Saudi Arabia-Turkey, Politics, 1/19/2002

The Turkish minister of defense Sabbah Eddine Oglo has underestimated the importance of the differences between Saudi Arabia and Turkey over Ajyad castle, recently demolished by the Saudi authorities.

Oglo said in a statement to the Saudi daily al-Watan issues on Friday that his country desires to back and develop relations with Saudi Arabia in particular and with other Arab and Islamic states which used to have a common history with Turkey.

The Turkish minister added that his country's policy is based on a main principle which is that the Ottoman heritage which used to be one day the property of Turkey is today the property of the Islamic countries and peoples whose territories own these ruins.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 02:48
better yet we can destroy the Stonehedge or Mayan temples, since the people who built them are all gone
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 03:20

However, Im only saying that moving historical subjects for a greater good is a right that cannot be disputed.

Yes, I agree, but damn, building an hotel is not greater good. Their respect to history is zero.

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 07:38

Murtaza how can you wait respect form some envious and disrespectful bedouins?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 07:57

save your generalization for other place.In fact, what you said is close to racism.

It  is goverment guilt, not people.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 08:18
those ugly vahabi rejim!!! i dont generalyz..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 14:03
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

Murtaza how can you wait respect form some envious and disrespectful bedouins?

Now I know who fuels anti-turk feelings .  Unfortunately, it is some of the turks themselves.  I will remain objective despite the insult.

Just a correction Jagatai Khan, are bedouins nomand people travelling in desert and steppes? As far I remember, egyptions had a civilization and cities and an empire at the time where turkic tribes were travelling the steppes like "bedouins" raiding and searching for grazing steppes.

I can tell you one thing, you are not helping people for sure realizing the lose of Ajyad

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 14:15

Originally posted by erci

better yet we can destroy the Stonehedge or Mayan temples, since the people who built them are all gone

If Egypt decided on day to move one pyramid, what government has the right to protest that? Yes, if England decided to move the stronehedge, who has a right to protest that?

Also, historical subjects are the property of its land. If we want to remove an Ottoman castle, they have a right to move it. It is only a castle and no significance in that castle except it is built in 1780 only.

And Im not a bedouin. I have a civilization older than you when you turks were raiding each others like animals for food and grass.

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