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Continuity from the Roman Empire to Byzantium

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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Continuity from the Roman Empire to Byzantium
    Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 23:18

There have been several topics lately discussing Byzantium's relationship with the Roman Empire and the medieval West.  If we can agree for the moment that Byzantium was the heir of the Roman Empire in terms of the imperial tradition of government, then I would like to discuss the other characteristics that Byzantium inherited from Roman civilization.  Specifically, in what ways was there continuity from the Roman Empire to Byzantium?

1. Economic continuity:

2. Military continuity:

3. Administrative continuity:

4. Technological continuity:

Further considerations:

Were there any instances or innovations in which Byzantium diverged from the old Roman Empire?

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2005 at 03:00
hmm sounds like a midterm paper for one of my classes.  I wil venture to say that in the woefully corrupt and ineficient sucession they were quite similar.  I would also venture that the using of specific areas for certain economic (almost mercantilist) means of specialty like Egypt being the breadbasket etc was a carry over, and a logical one at that.
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  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2005 at 07:19
Isn't this a daft question ?
What we refer to as Byzantine Empire wasn't the 'heir' of Rome it was the Roman Empire.  There was a continuous rule ???

Central administration of the Empire moved from Milan to Constantinople (always referred to by inhabitants as 'New Rome') under Constantine, but that was a swap of emphasis amongst the four sections of the Empire, not a change of goverment.  The economy, law courts, military and civil administration all remained.
rgds.

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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2005 at 10:19
The obvious divergence was the language, especially after Heracleios. The other one I can think of is the mentality. The Romans tried to get involved wherever they could : "whatever happened in the world was in Rome's interest, and if it wasn't in Rome's interest, Rome made it its interest". Sorry, I can't remember who said that... Anyway, by contrast, Byzantines were much more pragmatic and they tried to save and protect their resources (especially military) via diplomacy and bribes.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2005 at 10:43

Well I think we see them clealry trying to be the one unified Roman Empire until the massive territorial losses in the 7th century finally made them face the facts. When we speak of continuity with Rome though, I stress I am discussing continuity with the Late Roman Empire and not the early or republican Rome.

One thing I differentiate on is that Byzantium saw a revival, renewal and change for a period of about 4 centuries which defies all the stereotypes that negative historians have applied to it. This period saw the Byzantine Empire at a state when it was critically challenged for its very survival, it proved resilient and adaptable in meeting the numerous challenges it faced and I think this period sees a number of original changes made by the Empire. In each category you brought up Byzantium saw a number of changes over the period 650-1050 AD. For example, thematic organisation replacing the Roman prefectures (efficient enough to make up for the shortfall of having lost Egyptian grain supplies) as well as the development of a highly centralized guild system, thematic troop organisation and such military devices as Greek fire, thematic (again) administrative districts complete with some alterations to the structure of the Imperial bureaucracy. Technologically there is not a hell of alot of change, but enough for Emperors like Theophilus to have machanical birds and lions in his court which could move and make noise.

All up there is a hell of alot of continuity with Late Imperial Rome, but if you look there is still plenty of innovation and change which Byzantium deserves credit for.

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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2005 at 14:37

Originally posted by Tobodai

hmm sounds like a midterm paper for one of my classes.  I wil venture to say that in the woefully corrupt and ineficient sucession they were quite similar.  I would also venture that the using of specific areas for certain economic (almost mercantilist) means of specialty like Egypt being the breadbasket etc was a carry over, and a logical one at that.

 

Ouch, I hope my topic did not sound that boring!   Basically, having read a few things on Byzantine economic history (Hendy's The Economy, Fiscal Administration and Coinage of Byzantium and Laiou's new volumes published by Dumbarton Oaks), I noticed some interesting connections and wanted to find out if you all had picked up on this too.

 

I would contend that corruption was kept to a minimal amount--except in extreme cases--because of all the controls that the Byzantine government set on trading and production.  There were official monitors all throughout the Empire to keep an eye on things in port cities and treading cities.  Runciman talks about this in the Cambridge Economic History of Medieval Europe, volume 2.

 

Egypt was very important to both the Western Roman and the Byzantine economies, because the grain dolence was extracted from there.  After Egypt was lost, however, Byzantium had to try and make do with Anatolian grain, which did not work quote as well.

 

Originally posted by tadamson

Isn't this a daft question ?
What we refer to as Byzantine Empire wasn't the 'heir' of Rome it was the Roman Empire.  There was a continuous rule ???
 

 

Well shucks, thanks for being so polite!   No, it was not merely the heir of Rome.  I do believe that Byzantium was the continuation of the Roman Empire, right down to 1461.  I worded it this way for a purpose.  Have a look at my posts in this thread and you will see my position.

 

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5258& ; ;PN=1

 

Originally posted by Decebal

Anyway, by contrast, Byzantines were much more pragmatic and they tried to save and protect their resources (especially military) via diplomacy and bribes.

 

Yes, especially in the late Byzantine period when the army was in such bad shape.

 

Originally posted by Constantine XI

Well I think we see them clealry trying to be the one unified Roman Empire until the massive territorial losses in the 7th century finally made them face the facts.

 

Yes, this is very true.  I think the most continuity was from the fall of the West to the 7th century.  Even after the sack of 1204 by the crusaders, and the subsequent decentralization and fragmentation of the Byzantine government, certain Roman traditions were preserved and were restored along with the Empire by Michael VIII Palaeologus.  However, it was not an unbroken continuity by this point, but fragmentary.

 

Originally posted by Constantine XI

...thematic (again) administrative districts complete with some alterations to the structure of the Imperial bureaucracy.

 

Yes, I agree.  The Palaeologan emperors began to grant "appenages" to their sons and relatives to insure some kind of smooth succession.  Because the territory of the Empire was so small at this point, this did work well for administrative purposes.  Interestingly, it seems that the "appenage system" had similarities with both the Tetrarchy of Diocletian's reign and medieval western feudal agreements.



Edited by Byzantine Emperor
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 14:32

A very important characteristic of the Roman Empire that was slightly modified, and then outright changed in the middle and late Byzantine periods was the means of the succession of emperors.  This was one of the unique institutions of the Roman imperial system, that they had a working method to ensure a smooth succession.

In the old Roman Empire, a new emperor was elected based on his experience and accomplishments. This stabilized the succession in that the new emperor already had experience going into the job. Also, a new emperor was acclamated by the army, the Senate, and the people. This practice continued into the early Byzantine period.

Eventually, however, there was a shift towards hereditary succession and it became based on the degree of kinship to the preceding emperor (see Ostrogorsky, History of the Byzantine State). In the Comnenian period it became policy that a son was named the successor and was often made co-emperor with his father. Imperial offices and titles were subsequently given out to prominent members of the emperor's family. The Palaeologan government was almost exclusively dominated by members of the imperial family or family related by marriage.



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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2005 at 23:51

It is interesting to see that certain Roman administrative titles were carried over into the Byzantine period.  The jobs which these administrators performed, however, changed over time.  The Pretorian Prefect, for example, no longer was in charge of the emperor's bodyguard.  The Prefect in Byzantium was an official who watched over and regulated the economic activity of Constantinople and other big cities in the Empire.

A reigning emperor often made his chosen successor a Caesar.  Sometimes the successor was elevated to co-emperor and was given the title of Augustus.  This process carried over into the Byzantine period, but it went through some changes.  By the late period, the title of Caesar seems to have been given to prominent family members in the government, regardless as to whether or not they were considered to be a successor.  Eventually the title of Caesar phased out in importance in the wake of new appellations such as Despot and Protosebastos.



Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 14-Aug-2006 at 18:19
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  Quote Philhellene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 17:24
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

In the Comnenian period it became policy that a son was named the successor and was often made co-emperor with his father. Imperial offices and titles were subsequently given out to prominent members of the emperor's family. The Palaeologan government was almost exclusively dominated by members of the imperial family or family related by marriage.

 

It was common practice of all Roman and Byzantine emperors. It was some kind of tradition that emphasized the continuity between Roman and Byzantine Empires.



Edited by Philhellene - 14-Aug-2006 at 17:43
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 18:04
Originally posted by Philhellene

It was common practice of all Roman and Byzantine emperors. It was some kind of tradition that emphasized the continuity between Roman and Byzantine Empires.
 
Indeeed, if I think about it, it seems that the Armenian dynasty had the smae policy, along with others. Although in the Roman Empire, wouldn't the son or daughter be an 'Augustus' or 'Augusta' and that is not an Emperor...


Edited by rider - 14-Aug-2006 at 18:05
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  Quote Philhellene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 18:43

I don`t understand... Once again, what are you trying to say? You don`t think that the Roman emperors proclaimed their sons as co-emperors?

 
Augusta is a wife of Augustus-Emperor, not his daughter, am I right?
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  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 03:38
On a lesser note and I dont know if this is so much relevant but one way in which byzantium was an innovator was on the subject of architecture. They created and shifted the spaces used and in a simpler sense they got more away from the "classical" style. I guess you could say they put their Eastern flavor on thingsWink

Edited by arch.buff - 15-Aug-2006 at 03:39
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 05:21
Originally posted by Philhellene

I don`t understand... Once again, what are you trying to say? You don`t think that the Roman emperors proclaimed their sons as co-emperors?

 
Augusta is a wife of Augustus-Emperor, not his daughter, am I right?
 
No, I don't think that either that the Roman Emperor's sons were the co-emperors, but I was thinking that their son would be an Augustus or daughter Augusta. Wasn't Augustus/Augusta just a title for the royal house?
 
The wife should be Empress (Caesaria)
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  Quote Philhellene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 05:56
Originally posted by rider

No, I don't think that either that the Roman Emperor's sons were the co-emperors, but I was thinking that their son would be an Augustus or daughter Augusta. Wasn't Augustus/Augusta just a title for the royal house?
 
The wife should be Empress (Caesaria)
 
You maybe don`t know but Augustus and our emperor are the same titles and there is no difference between our empress and Roman Augusta. And Roman "Imperator" is not equal to our "emperor", it is a military title of honour and the Romans didn`t have any female analogue of this title.
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  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 08:12
I thought "Augustus" meant sacred or revered, that is what the senate bestowed on Octavian. I dont know if the meaning changed there after. But you are right "Imperator" basically means military chief of staff.
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 08:18
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

There have been several topics lately discussing Byzantium's relationship with the Roman Empire and the medieval West.  If we can agree for the moment that Byzantium was the heir of the Roman Empire in terms of the imperial tradition of government, then I would like to discuss the other characteristics that Byzantium inherited from Roman civilization.  Specifically, in what ways was there continuity from the Roman Empire to Byzantium?

1. Economic continuity:

2. Military continuity:

3. Administrative continuity:

4. Technological continuity:

Further considerations:

Were there any instances or innovations in which Byzantium diverged from the old Roman Empire?

The main proble is that many people associates the Empire of Julius Caear and Augustus as the Roman Empire and comapared Byzantium to the republican/early imperial Rome. There was changes naturally (Who would dare said that the England of William I and Elizabeth II are the same), but this doesn't mean that a new state formed in place of the old.
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  Quote Philhellene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 17:33
I thought "Augustus" meant sacred or revered, that is what the senate bestowed on Octavian. I dont know if the meaning changed there after.
 
The title Augustus was a legal substitution of the title "rex", the Romans tried to emphasize that their state was still the same republic and nothing changed - they just improved their state. Each new head of the Roman state was to be proclaimed Augustus - that meant that he was a legitimate ruler.


Edited by Philhellene - 15-Aug-2006 at 17:42
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 21:19
The Byzantine monarchy can be seen as a continuum, though one which was naturally subject to change. Byzantium had an unbroken line of succession stretching all the way back to Augustus. Unlike Charlemagne or the Germans, they didn't simply arrogate themselves a place in succession, they inherited it.
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 10:01
I know that Imperator was a military title, Caesar however was not.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 10:52
Roman Political theory, Greek Civilization and Christian faith were the three elements that defined the Byzantium development.
Is the known imperium romanum or Byzantiym administration
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