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Continuity from the Roman Empire to Byzantium

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  Quote Herschel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Continuity from the Roman Empire to Byzantium
    Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 11:38
I am really pissed off because last night I wrote an entire essays worth of material for a reply, only to get a forum "error" that seems to strike this site a lot. I had not backed up what I had written, either! :(

So here is my abridged response:

Latin did not die out. It remained the first language of the Dalmatian coast until at least the 15th and 16th centuries before finally sucumbing to Slavitization. There is also a theory that the modern inhabitants of Romania are not the descendents of the Romanized-Dacians, but rather of the Romanized-Illyrians who migrated from the Adriatic Sea to Bulgaria, and then to what is now Romania during the Byzantine period.

Also, regarding technology, I aruge that they did not continue the Roman tradition of Science and Technology, but rather the Alexandrian/Hellenized form of learning. In my post last night I argued that the road system was more developed in the West and did not have the same results in the East due to terrain, climate, and culture. I also used engineering points that are too long to include. Famous examples of Roman engineering in the East such as the Aspendos aqueduct were constructed by (and for) Latin immigrants in Lycia.


Edited by Herschel - 20-Aug-2006 at 11:39
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 22:40
Originally posted by rider

Definetly, the Byzantines as we call the mtoday did call themselves Romans and not Byzantines. Maybe even Greeks but the official name of the Empire stayed as Roman Empire until 1453, even the Nicaean Empire was called such.
 
Supposedly some of the Greeks living in the Aegean islands were calling themselves Rhomaioi even as late as World War I!  My undergraduate Byzantine history professor told us a story about his advisor (Peter Charanis), who said this growing up on an island.
 
Originally posted by Temujin

Roman empire in medieval times was almost JUST Greek with NO Latin elements at all, except for those inherited from roman overlordship.
 
Justinian I was the last Byzantine emperor who spoke Latin as his main language.  Illyricum, his birthplace, was pretty much the dividing line between the Latin and Greek parts of the Empire. The Latin element definitely died out and the focus shifted east after his reign and all the "reconquests" were lost.
 
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 14:54
Originally posted by Raider

1. the core moved westward?
 
sorry, what i meant to say was that the core of the empire was the western part. western rome = latin italy and assimilated Celt provinces & colonised northern africa which became new Romans. when the empire was created, Rome was all that + some Greek states as vassals which were not part of the empire. Roman empire in medieval times was almost JUST Greek with NO Latin elements at all, except for those inherited from roman overlordship.
3. different language and ethnicity
Language and ethnicity are not key factor in ancient or medieval empires. In the east the hellenism was decisive, but this was the case even in the time of the early emperors.
 
yeah i agree, that's why they continued to call themselves Romans even though they weren't. had nationality played any part back then, there's no chance in hell they would have still called themselves as Romans.
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 03:29
Originally posted by Temujin

yeah we all know there was a continuity of emperors but can we really ingore the fact that the core and the population of the emprie moved wetswards? also, i completely disagree that there was a political continuation of both empires. back then there were 2 ideologies, the western republican world domination ideology (supreme ruler of all the world) and the Persian (basically Assyrian in origin) ideology of the despotic King of Kings = supreme ruler over other countries, not one single emprie inclduign everyhting. so it si clear they moddeled themselves idoelogically on Sassanian iran, not their Roman ancestors. and as i already mentioned, you cannot really ignore the fact that the empire changed from Latin culture & tongue to Greek (Graeco-Roman) culture & tongue. the classical Roman empire included around 30% to 50% native latin speakers (including assimilated Celts etc), the medieval roman empire was more like almost 100% greek in population (including assimilated ppl).
 
also people happily ignore the fact that the roman empire offically split in 2 halfs, so you cannot really say there was a perfect continuation. the same hereditary split btw effectively led to nations that are today known as france & germany who aren't really the same language & culture even though a group of german people call themselves as Franks even today just like the french.... and even religiously there was a discontinuation.
1. the core moved westward?
2. different political ideologies
This is why I wrote before that some people are unable to differ the Roman Republic/early empire and the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire is changed, evolved during its existance. The Roman Empire of BC 30 and the Roman Empire of AD 400 are the same empire, while their structure and ideology is different.
3. different language and ethnicity
Language and ethnicity are not key factor in ancient or medieval empires. In the east the hellenism was decisive, but this was the case even in the time of the early emperors.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 16:04
When I spoke for Byzantiym administration I didn't mean that they identified as Byzantines.Just I tried to give  the picture what was the meaning of the imperium romanum

Edited by akritas - 16-Aug-2006 at 16:06
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 15:30
yeah we all know there was a continuity of emperors but can we really ingore the fact that the core and the population of the emprie moved wetswards? also, i completely disagree that there was a political continuation of both empires. back then there were 2 ideologies, the western republican world domination ideology (supreme ruler of all the world) and the Persian (basically Assyrian in origin) ideology of the despotic King of Kings = supreme ruler over other countries, not one single emprie inclduign everyhting. so it si clear they moddeled themselves idoelogically on Sassanian iran, not their Roman ancestors. and as i already mentioned, you cannot really ignore the fact that the empire changed from Latin culture & tongue to Greek (Graeco-Roman) culture & tongue. the classical Roman empire included around 30% to 50% native latin speakers (including assimilated Celts etc), the medieval roman empire was more like almost 100% greek in population (including assimilated ppl).
 
also people happily ignore the fact that the roman empire offically split in 2 halfs, so you cannot really say there was a perfect continuation. the same hereditary split btw effectively led to nations that are today known as france & germany who aren't really the same language & culture even though a group of german people call themselves as Franks even today just like the french.... and even religiously there was a discontinuation.
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 14:51
Definetly, the Byzantines as we call the mtoday did call themselves Romans and not Byzantines. Maybe even Greeks but the official name of the Empire stayed as Roman Empire until 1453, even the Nicaean Empire was called such.
 
 Therefore, the Byzantines could not call themselves Byzantiym administration.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 10:52
Roman Political theory, Greek Civilization and Christian faith were the three elements that defined the Byzantium development.
Is the known imperium romanum or Byzantiym administration
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 10:01
I know that Imperator was a military title, Caesar however was not.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 21:19
The Byzantine monarchy can be seen as a continuum, though one which was naturally subject to change. Byzantium had an unbroken line of succession stretching all the way back to Augustus. Unlike Charlemagne or the Germans, they didn't simply arrogate themselves a place in succession, they inherited it.
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  Quote Philhellene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 17:33
I thought "Augustus" meant sacred or revered, that is what the senate bestowed on Octavian. I dont know if the meaning changed there after.
 
The title Augustus was a legal substitution of the title "rex", the Romans tried to emphasize that their state was still the same republic and nothing changed - they just improved their state. Each new head of the Roman state was to be proclaimed Augustus - that meant that he was a legitimate ruler.


Edited by Philhellene - 15-Aug-2006 at 17:42
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 08:18
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

There have been several topics lately discussing Byzantium's relationship with the Roman Empire and the medieval West.  If we can agree for the moment that Byzantium was the heir of the Roman Empire in terms of the imperial tradition of government, then I would like to discuss the other characteristics that Byzantium inherited from Roman civilization.  Specifically, in what ways was there continuity from the Roman Empire to Byzantium?

1. Economic continuity:

2. Military continuity:

3. Administrative continuity:

4. Technological continuity:

Further considerations:

Were there any instances or innovations in which Byzantium diverged from the old Roman Empire?

The main proble is that many people associates the Empire of Julius Caear and Augustus as the Roman Empire and comapared Byzantium to the republican/early imperial Rome. There was changes naturally (Who would dare said that the England of William I and Elizabeth II are the same), but this doesn't mean that a new state formed in place of the old.
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  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 08:12
I thought "Augustus" meant sacred or revered, that is what the senate bestowed on Octavian. I dont know if the meaning changed there after. But you are right "Imperator" basically means military chief of staff.
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  Quote Philhellene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 05:56
Originally posted by rider

No, I don't think that either that the Roman Emperor's sons were the co-emperors, but I was thinking that their son would be an Augustus or daughter Augusta. Wasn't Augustus/Augusta just a title for the royal house?
 
The wife should be Empress (Caesaria)
 
You maybe don`t know but Augustus and our emperor are the same titles and there is no difference between our empress and Roman Augusta. And Roman "Imperator" is not equal to our "emperor", it is a military title of honour and the Romans didn`t have any female analogue of this title.
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 05:21
Originally posted by Philhellene

I don`t understand... Once again, what are you trying to say? You don`t think that the Roman emperors proclaimed their sons as co-emperors?

 
Augusta is a wife of Augustus-Emperor, not his daughter, am I right?
 
No, I don't think that either that the Roman Emperor's sons were the co-emperors, but I was thinking that their son would be an Augustus or daughter Augusta. Wasn't Augustus/Augusta just a title for the royal house?
 
The wife should be Empress (Caesaria)
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  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 03:38
On a lesser note and I dont know if this is so much relevant but one way in which byzantium was an innovator was on the subject of architecture. They created and shifted the spaces used and in a simpler sense they got more away from the "classical" style. I guess you could say they put their Eastern flavor on thingsWink

Edited by arch.buff - 15-Aug-2006 at 03:39
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  Quote Philhellene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 18:43

I don`t understand... Once again, what are you trying to say? You don`t think that the Roman emperors proclaimed their sons as co-emperors?

 
Augusta is a wife of Augustus-Emperor, not his daughter, am I right?
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 18:04
Originally posted by Philhellene

It was common practice of all Roman and Byzantine emperors. It was some kind of tradition that emphasized the continuity between Roman and Byzantine Empires.
 
Indeeed, if I think about it, it seems that the Armenian dynasty had the smae policy, along with others. Although in the Roman Empire, wouldn't the son or daughter be an 'Augustus' or 'Augusta' and that is not an Emperor...


Edited by rider - 14-Aug-2006 at 18:05
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  Quote Philhellene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 17:24
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

In the Comnenian period it became policy that a son was named the successor and was often made co-emperor with his father. Imperial offices and titles were subsequently given out to prominent members of the emperor's family. The Palaeologan government was almost exclusively dominated by members of the imperial family or family related by marriage.

 

It was common practice of all Roman and Byzantine emperors. It was some kind of tradition that emphasized the continuity between Roman and Byzantine Empires.



Edited by Philhellene - 14-Aug-2006 at 17:43
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2005 at 23:51

It is interesting to see that certain Roman administrative titles were carried over into the Byzantine period.  The jobs which these administrators performed, however, changed over time.  The Pretorian Prefect, for example, no longer was in charge of the emperor's bodyguard.  The Prefect in Byzantium was an official who watched over and regulated the economic activity of Constantinople and other big cities in the Empire.

A reigning emperor often made his chosen successor a Caesar.  Sometimes the successor was elevated to co-emperor and was given the title of Augustus.  This process carried over into the Byzantine period, but it went through some changes.  By the late period, the title of Caesar seems to have been given to prominent family members in the government, regardless as to whether or not they were considered to be a successor.  Eventually the title of Caesar phased out in importance in the wake of new appellations such as Despot and Protosebastos.



Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 14-Aug-2006 at 18:19
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