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The origion of the Türks

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The origion of the Türks
    Posted: 03-Sep-2005 at 16:01

hokagenaruto3

Well If they want, They can call themself as Turk too. Noone is against It. Infact I prefer If they call themself as Turk.

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  Quote AydoluAtsiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 07:44

having a right to call yourself a turk is a right everyone that speaks a turkic language has. every anatolian turk has just as much a right to call themselves a turk as any kazak uygur kyrgyz etc. does. this racial purity stuff is only something ultra nationalistic people subscibe to. there is no such thing as a pure race. everyone is mixed to some extent. some more some less. there are alot of turkified mongols who are kazaks today. nursultan nazerbayev called himself a turk for example. i'm not saying that he is a turkified mongol tho. in his case i just dont know. if in your heart and mind you feel that you are a turk go ahead and call yourself one. that is not a right anyone can deny you. its a linguistic and historical bond. my father worked with alot of central asian turks that didnt live under soviet occupation and non of them was ashamed of calling themselves turks. the urum for example are ethnic greeks. they say they are greeks ethnically but they also say that they are turks in soul. can anyone tell them no you cant be a turk in soul? no! if thats how they feel then thats how it is.

 



Edited by AydoluAtsiz
Türk duygusu her Türkçüye en tatlı kımızdır;
Türk ülküsü candan da aziz bayrağımızdır...
Darbeyle gönüllerde yatan ülkü silinmez!
Atsız yere düşmekle bu bayrak yere inmez!...
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  Quote AydoluAtsiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 09:28

oh and to say the turks had no relationships with the arabs persians greeks is insane. ever heard of the devsirme period??? the turks did mix with these people. Slavs were also among them. they were taken from christian homes at a very early age and were put into turkish homes where they learned the turkish language culture and traditions.  then when they were old enough they were taken to be at service of the ottoman state as kapikulu, janisaries, scribes etc. etc. these people were not ethnically turks, however they called themselves osmanli. which as we all know was a turkish state. and this touches base with what i have written above. if in heart soul and mind you feel you are a turk then you are. states are not formed by genetics. they are formed politically and culturally. these people didnt just disappear. they still contribute to the gene pool of the turkish republic today.

and on a side note.

yildirim beyazit's mother was a greek does this make him a greek sultan? No!

mehmet akif ersoy who wrote the istiklal marsi is of albanian origin. but if he felt like an albanian could he have written the istiklal marsi? no!

other ottoman sultans were also of foreign origin either maternally or paternally. they ruled the ottoman state though. they spoke the language of the empire. they didnt rule as people belonging to these other nationalities.



Edited by AydoluAtsiz
Türk duygusu her Türkçüye en tatlı kımızdır;
Türk ülküsü candan da aziz bayrağımızdır...
Darbeyle gönüllerde yatan ülkü silinmez!
Atsız yere düşmekle bu bayrak yere inmez!...
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 11:27

mehmet akif ersoy who wrote the istiklal marsi is of albanian origin. but if he felt like an albanian could he have written the istiklal marsi? no!

He called himself as albanian at his one poet. I think we should differentiate Turkish nation before Ataturk and after Ataturk.

Before Ataturk, at ottomans People who is muslim called as Turks too.(Special at the west anatolia and balkains)

And I cant say İstiklal Marşı glorify Turkish race, It glorify Turkish(ottoman) nation. I dont think Mehmet Akif feel more Turkish than albanian. After all for him, Race has not any importance but religion. We cant say Mehmet Akif called himself as Turk. Even He is hero of Turkey, I can say he is a hero of Turkish race.

 

 

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  Quote AydoluAtsiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 12:13

First of all there is no such thing as before and after ataturk! the people of anatolia didnt change overnight when we went from empire (ottoman) to modern day republic of turkey. and secondly iskiklal marsi glorifies a races fight against aggression, it doesnt glorify the ottoman nation as you claim.

"I dont think Mehmet Akif feel more Turkish than albanian."

your sentence above seems to me to be absurd. If you had read my sentence "but if he felt like an albanian could he have written the istiklal marsi? no!" carefully you wouldnt have written something like this. the istiklal marsi is not for muslims! not for albanians! but for the entire TURKISH Nation. its as simple as that.

btw. saying "I dont think Mehmet Akif feel more Turkish than albanian" and then "Even He is hero of Turkey, I can say he is a hero of Turkish race." doent make sense and defies all logic. would you please ellaborate.

if he is a hero of the turkish race and he wrote something that glorifies a turkish struggle how could he have felt more albanian???

Türk duygusu her Türkçüye en tatlı kımızdır;
Türk ülküsü candan da aziz bayrağımızdır...
Darbeyle gönüllerde yatan ülkü silinmez!
Atsız yere düşmekle bu bayrak yere inmez!...
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 12:30

btw. saying "I dont think Mehmet Akif feel more Turkish than albanian" and then "Even He is hero of Turkey, I can say he is a hero of Turkish race." doent make sense and defies all logic. would you please ellaborate.

I write wrong, I mean even he is a hero of Turkey, I cannot say he is a hero of Turkish race. He didnt cared for Turkish race. He cared for Ottomans and Turkey people.

 

After all he is not a nationalist but a pan-islamist.

First of all there is no such thing as before and after ataturk!

There is, Infact even Ataturk changes his idea of nation after sometime. Why do you think Karaman Christians sent to Greece? Even They were Turk and They helped Independent war, They sent to greece.

At the ottomans Turk=Muslim. This is reason for exiling Turkish Karaman Christians.

I dont think Turkish nationalist have right to claim Mehmet Akif. If you read Istiklal marsı , You cannot find any word like Turks, and you can find a lot words related with Islam.

And I read a poet from him, He was claiming that He is arnavut.So I dont think He is a hero of Turkish race and I dont see why do you think he is interested with Turkish race?

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  Quote AydoluAtsiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 12:43

karamanlis who were orthodox were exchanged for muslim turks! which was a political move wheather it was right or wrong

I think you need to read the istiklal marsi before you come to conclusions.

O benim milletimin yıldızıdır, parlayacak;
O benimdir, o benim milletimindir ancak.
it is my nations star, it will shine
it is mine, and only my nations

Ebediyen sana yok, ırkıma yok izmihlal:

there will be no anihilation to my race and to my flag.

do you think hes talking about the albanian race? if so i dont have anything else to say to you and i guess were all albanians!

 



Edited by AydoluAtsiz
Türk duygusu her Türkçüye en tatlı kımızdır;
Türk ülküsü candan da aziz bayrağımızdır...
Darbeyle gönüllerde yatan ülkü silinmez!
Atsız yere düşmekle bu bayrak yere inmez!...
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 12:51

Sure, why do you think his nation means "Turk race" as I said you before Turks =Muslims.

He is a pan-islamist, He dont cared race. Why do you think when he is calling himself as albanian, he supported Turkish cause?

Not because he feels he is Turkish, but because he feels he is muslim and because he feel ottomans were last muslim nation who was free at that time.

If I am a pan-islamist, If I am albanian, why should I feel as a Turk ? this is complately agains to common sense. any idea? He support Turkey, Turkey people (Turks are majority of Turkey people) but he is not a Turk, he is not a Turkish nationalist. I dont think He will support a christian Turkey against a muslim Greece.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  Quote AydoluAtsiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 13:00

could you please point out to me where i said he was a turk? i never said that. and besides i dont care which way you look at it mortaza muslims are not a race!

why does he call himself albanian? same reason the urums call themselves ethnic greeks. as i said above they feel they are turks in soul.

so if you say turks = musllims and he means his race by that then i guess he is saying that he is a turk in soul. not ethnically.

Türk duygusu her Türkçüye en tatlı kımızdır;
Türk ülküsü candan da aziz bayrağımızdır...
Darbeyle gönüllerde yatan ülkü silinmez!
Atsız yere düşmekle bu bayrak yere inmez!...
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  Quote AydoluAtsiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 13:05
And besides what else can he do? he wrote for a race he wrote for a nation he is obviously stateing whose side he's on. of course he supported the turkish cause  if the turkish state was the only free muslim state around as you put it.
Türk duygusu her Türkçüye en tatlı kımızdır;
Türk ülküsü candan da aziz bayrağımızdır...
Darbeyle gönüllerde yatan ülkü silinmez!
Atsız yere düşmekle bu bayrak yere inmez!...
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 13:07

Well, becoming a turk in soul is a little weird. I mean If he called himself Turk and If he felt he is a Turkish, I accept, he was a Turk at soul.

But He call himself as Albanian, and sorry Maybe you can see his soul but I cant see. So I dont think he have a Turkish soul.(I dont know what is meaning of this much) I dont think we are god who can claim souls of other. We should accept him as what he called himself. and He called himself as Arnavut.

muslims are not a race!

Well I agree with this too, but claiming someone who say, I am albanian is a little wrong. As I said he is a hero of Turkey, I can claim is a hero of us(If US means people of Turkey).

But If US means Turkish race, well he is not.

 

 

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  Quote AydoluAtsiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 13:19

holy smokes mortaza i never said i was god and this topic isnt about god either. and i never claimed anyones soul. im not shang tsun from mortal kombat buddy.

and besides what i mean by being turk at soul is explained above. if you cant understand it then there is nothing i can do about that. sorry. it written in plain english and i havent used any complicated wording either. maybe others who read this can enlighten you. i have tried.

he is an ethnic albanian! and what he did he did for the turkish nation not the albanian one. thats about as simple as i can can put it to you.

anyway thats the last im gonna write about mehmet akif ersoy.



Edited by AydoluAtsiz
Türk duygusu her Türkçüye en tatlı kımızdır;
Türk ülküsü candan da aziz bayrağımızdır...
Darbeyle gönüllerde yatan ülkü silinmez!
Atsız yere düşmekle bu bayrak yere inmez!...
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 13:33

if in heart soul and mind you feel you are a turk then you are. states are not formed by genetics. they are formed politically and culturally.

Well If you mean this, ottomans are not a Turkish Empire, they were an islamic Empire build by Turks. Their culture is neither Turkish too, It have a big Turkish side, but It also effected from every other nation who live in ottomans.

And For know, Our culture and Ottomans culture is much different after Ataturk revaluation. Do you think, now we are different race from Ottomans?

im not shang tsun from mortal kombat buddy.

I am a fun of him, I wish you is

he is an ethnic albanian! and what he did he did for the turkish nation not the albanian one

He did it for Turkish nation at that times.

Meaning of Turkish nation is changed much, Mehmet Akif will call a Laz (who will call themself as laz) who dont know Turkish as a Turk. Do you call also? This laz is ethnically and culturaly a laz, but for Mehmet Akif It is a Turk.(Or ottoman)

As I said you before, Meaning of Turkish nation changed last 70-80 years

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  Quote AydoluAtsiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 13:53

heheh yeah actually i am a fan shang tsun that game was awesome.

well to put it to you like this i knew a lot laz people when i lived in turkey. they knew they were laz but they also called themselves turks. when some went to the army they said i love turkey i love the nation and will die for it if i have to. and thats the sort of spirit i was talking about when i said turk in soul or ruhen turkum.

of course cultures change that is inevitable. its called cultural exchange. every culture grows that way.  i hope to tanri that the turkish culture keps evolving if it doesnt it will stagnate and die. when the turks arrived in anatolia they adopted alot of non turkic elements into theirs. when it comes to the mehter marsi for example when we speak of the military that isnt turkish in origin it comes from the byzantines. there is alot of greek food in todays turkish cuisine aswell.

do i think we are a different race then ottoman times? no. turks in turkey are the decendants of the ottomans. i mean people called themselves turks then and they still do today.

and if the ottoman empire was build by turks it was a turkish islamic empire. there were other islamic empires too but not all were turkish ones. there were arabic islamic empires too. can we say they werent arabic in nature? i  personally dont think so. but their population included non arabs too.

he did do it for the turkish nation of that time and that is exactly my point.

Türk duygusu her Türkçüye en tatlı kımızdır;
Türk ülküsü candan da aziz bayrağımızdır...
Darbeyle gönüllerde yatan ülkü silinmez!
Atsız yere düşmekle bu bayrak yere inmez!...
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 13:58

he did do it for the turkish nation of that time and that is exactly my point.

I agree with this, but somehow I dont think he will support now Turkish nation, for him Turkish nation was different than Turkish nation of this time.

At that times, Turkish nation include other races too, now It exclude other races.

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  Quote AydoluAtsiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 14:08
oh dude i never said he would or wouldnt support the turkish nation now. i was talking historically only.
Türk duygusu her Türkçüye en tatlı kımızdır;
Türk ülküsü candan da aziz bayrağımızdır...
Darbeyle gönüllerde yatan ülkü silinmez!
Atsız yere düşmekle bu bayrak yere inmez!...
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 15:55
Let all keep this as historical as possible. This is not the intellectual discussions forum. Thanks.
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  Quote Hak-Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 22:44
the word of "Turk" is written thousands years ago in Orkhun Scripts in central asian steppes, its the oldest word for using a central asian warlike nation

so your ideas about anatolian Turks(a mixed nation idea) are only a bullsh*t rally

Turks didnt mixed with other nations(when and which turk married with an armenian or greek?, have you ever heard about that?)
Greeks, Armenians,Persians,Arabs has sent their homelands when first Turks came into anatolia.
you dont have any document or source about mixed nation Turks

so ,dont waste your time, no kid around here





Edited by Hak-Khan
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  Quote AydoluAtsiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 23:05
it was with the gok turks that this term was applied to a people and nation. and they rose to power in and around the 5th century. i cant believe u think we are not mixed. thats preposterous. read history man. the gok turks took chinese brides too. and yes actually i know turks who have married greeks. not everyone in turkey and greece is racist you know and wasnt back then either. if a greek converted to islam there was nothing stopping a turk from taking her as a bride. then how come yildirim beyazits mother was greek? man learn your history. are you saying yildirim beyazit wasnt a turk?  as far as i know his father was. genetically he was a half breed. but what he did and fought for was for a turkish state. if you know better about him for instance and have sources let me know and i will gladly look at them. seriously these claims for racial purity are seriously absurd. and my ideas arent bullsh*t either. they happened to be shared by alot of people when it comes to racial purity issues. no such thing. there is a difference between selcuk turks when they came to anatolia and turks today. i am not claiming that we are not turks. we are totally! but ethnically and genetically we arent pure. besides being a turk or belonging to any nation is not about how you look. mankind has been intermingeling for millenia! how can you claim that we and other nations never mixed. this defys logic. if turks never mixed as you claim. well then there wouldnt be any around today.  a ton of people from other nations  and ethnicities became turkified and some turks became assimilated into other peoples and nations ie the bulgars. and what of all the turkified people during the devsirme period? u think they just vanished?  and being a turk doesnt mean you have a genetic bond to the ancient turks but you may have a linguistic and cultural bond. which ever one you have it doesnt matter. if you feel you are a turk then you are. and no can say otherwise. it doesnt mean there is a direct linkage between you and lets say bilge kagan or any turk that lived during his time. the look of people wheather you are mongoloid caucasoid or turanoid or whatever is based on where you actually lived. people evolved to suit their environment. if you can have turks that are mongoloid and caucasoid then obviously we have mixed. why is this so hard for you to accept? im only curious because i really dont understand your stance on things and i would like to. and im not kidding around or wasting my time either Hak-Khan. im trying to have a civil conversation and debate with people on these forums and i have every right to do so.

Edited by AydoluAtsiz
Türk duygusu her Türkçüye en tatlı kımızdır;
Türk ülküsü candan da aziz bayrağımızdır...
Darbeyle gönüllerde yatan ülkü silinmez!
Atsız yere düşmekle bu bayrak yere inmez!...
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  Quote AydoluAtsiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2005 at 00:11
and how do you think anatolia became turkified? you think we slaughtered its inhabitants until there was no one left? no! when turks came into the region we werent the majority. anatolia has been inhabited by other ethnic groups. these were turkified when we came. and by turkifying i dont mean we need to have sexual relations with them. that did happen of course its human nature. other however were turkified on a cultural and linguistic basis only. can we say they arent turks now? i dont think so. fatih sultan mehmeds mothers was genovese read prof franz babinger. he is one of the major sources for info on fatih sultan. besides its a major principle of history that you can not project ideas that evolved in the 19th century like racism and nationalism in peridds of time before the 18th century, before the ideas came to fruition. it is like the leftist saying that sheykh bedrettin was the first socialist or communist as has been claimed by the turkish leftist about 20 years ago. trying to be a rightist you make the same mistake as a leftist. the decision is yours so learn your history please before you accuse me of bullsh*ting.
Türk duygusu her Türkçüye en tatlı kımızdır;
Türk ülküsü candan da aziz bayrağımızdır...
Darbeyle gönüllerde yatan ülkü silinmez!
Atsız yere düşmekle bu bayrak yere inmez!...
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