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Uyghurs in Central Asian Steppe

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    Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 09:21
 There were actually no nation called Uyghurs in East Turkistan 2500 years ago, and the inhabitants of Central Asia  were not Turks as well. Who can tell me the relationship between present Uyghurs and ancient Uyghurs who esteblished the Uyghur Empire in modern Mogolia? The name of Uyghur came to the history in two distinct times. One is when it was time for Uyghur Empire which overthrew the Gok Turk Empire, and later was overthrown by the Kyrgyzs. The ancient Uyghurs were only Turks, and were not a seperate nation. If they were Uyghurs, like the modern Uyghurs now, why did they clain themselves as Turks after their big  move to  Central Asia from Mongolian Steppe? Why did Mahmoud Kashigari claim themselves as Trks, not Uyghurs? It's certain that, he wrote about a country which was named Uyghur in his book 'Divanu Loghatit Trk, and it was close to Trk's border. As the centuries went by, the people of Central Asia preferd to call themselves as Muslims, not Uyghurs, nor Trks. They had already forgotten who they had been, and who they were. The whole Central Asian Steppe was called Turan. However, after the arrival of Russians, this area had a new name Eastern and Western Turksitan, all of inhabitants were called Turks of Central Asians, except Kazaks and Kyrgyzs. There were three languages were spoken in this area.
1. Arabic. It served as a holy, religious language.2.  Turkish, or Chaghatoy Turkish, which served as a daily language, or converstaonal language.
And the last one Persian served as a Cultural language. When it's time for the Soviet to govern this area, they made up many races here, such as: Uzbek, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Uyghur, Turkmen etc. This is the result of Soviet. Then there were the nations called Uzbek , Uyghur, Kazakh, Kyrgyz,...etc. Turks of Central Asia no longer existed.
 
Before the occupation of Trks in central asia, there had been living Iranic people. During the Ghinggiz Khan's ruling time, numbers of Mongols arrived to Central Asia, and make the origion more complicated, more confused. So we even cannot be clear about who we are, who we were.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 09:32

Interesting. The Central Asians were mostly of Iranian stock prior to the Turks arrival. The Turks were more in the vacinity of Mongolia and Siberia at such a time. But this is going back to a time that predates the huns and later the Turk empire. Eventually central asia became a quasi-Turk haven.

Do not know much about the history of soviet influence on tribal (ethnic) names though. Thanks for the info.

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  Quote Nagyfejedelem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 16:50

YELKEN:

Very good. But not only the Arab was foreign language for Turks. In Gok Turk Empire the language of the rulers and nobles was Sogd.

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  Quote Sultan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 23:18

 

Yelken ,

 The Modern Uyghurs In Eastern Turkistan Are The Same People From The Uyghur Empire , You Can Find Uyghurs EveryWhere , In The Mongolian Steppe , Kazakhstan , Kyrgyzstan And Even Inside China Which We Call Them Sari Uyghurs "i am not talking about the uyghurs of eastern turkistan here" , And Mahmud Kashgari Said That They Are Uyghurs Turks My Friend , Which Version Of His Book You Have : /

 One More Thing , i Sometimes Read That The Old Uyghurs Are Not The Modern Uyghurs In Some Chinese Books And Other Russian Like You Mentined Here But This Is Totally Not True , The Uyghurs Are The Same Old Uyghurs And This Is What The Chinese Historicals Made It Up To Prove Thier Lies About Eastern Turkistan , Please Read Yasin Turan The Uyghur Turk Historical Who Wrote The History Of The Uyghurs And The Turks And His Book And All His Work Was Destroied By The Russians And Chinese When They Took Our Lands "Turks" And Destroied All Our Ancient Books , i Hope Anyone Who Is Interested In The Turks With All It Groups To Read Books Written By Turks Not Chinese , Russians Nor Persians.



Edited by Sultan
Turkistan is a door to two worlds,
Turkistan is a cradle of the Turks,
Living in beautiful Turkistan
Is Tengri's blessing to the Turks.

FREEDOM FOR EASTERN TURKISTAN
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  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 10:20
Originally posted by Sultan

  One More Thing , i Sometimes Read That The Old Uyghurs Are Not The Modern Uyghurs In Some Chinese Books And Other Russian Like You Mentined Here But This Is Totally Not True , The Uyghurs Are The Same Old Uyghurs And This Is What The Chinese Historicals Made It Up To Prove Thier Lies About Eastern Turkistan , Please Read Yasin Turan The Uyghur Turk Historical Who Wrote The History Of The Uyghurs And The Turks And His Book And All His Work Was Destroied By The Russians And Chinese When They Took Our Lands "Turks" And Destroied All Our Ancient Books , i Hope Anyone Who Is Interested In The Turks With All It Groups To Read Books Written By Turks Not Chinese , Russians Nor Persians.



I would strongly suggest that anyone interested should look at books from as many viewpoints as possible and, whenever possible, try to see the original sources.  All authors and historians have their bias (deliberate or otherwise).

rgds.

      Tom..
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 16:40
I agree with tadamson. 
AAAAAAAAAA
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  Quote Nagyfejedelem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 04:39

Yelken:

Before the Turk occupation really Iranic people lived in Central Asia. They had important position in trade of Chinese silk goods and lived in cities.

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  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 05:02
As to nations replacing nations..  remember that the great federations etc we list (Scythian, Saurmation, Xionnu, Tujue, Ruanran, Uighur, Kirguz, etc..) were named afer the ruling tribe/clan/federation etc... when one replaced another it was by transferring the alleigance of the population rather than by replacing them.  There were lage scale migrations (probably caused more by climate changes) and there was massive interchange of people and bloodlines (all steppe peoples tried whenever possible to marry outside the clan/tribe).

After the Uighur capital was overthrown by the Kirghiz, the ruling classes migrated to thhe Khotan whare they set up and ruled semi settled kingdoms untill the Mongols came.  Many Uighir were merchants and they travelled widely across Asia.  The Mongols used large numbers of Uighir as merchants, scribes, soldiers etc.
rgds.

      Tom..
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 06:54

T Sultan,

Thank you very much for your feedback. I love to discuss these with you , as I think we can share our ideas in certain point.

I have been the regional museum of Sinkiang, and had the chance to see ' the Kroran Beauty', and ' the Cherchen Man' , and ' the Cherchen woman' which made the western scholars to have big interests on Uyghurs. I have read a book about the mummies of Urumchi. At the same time I saw another mummified body found from Qamul. The body was nothing different from the other bodies which have absolutely Iranic origion. Maybe they had Turkic origion! This is confusing. The body found form Qamul led me to think that the inhabitants of Qamul have a close root which the main part of Uyghurs have. I'm not making seperation, and I'm not a seperist. The reason why I talked about the differences of Uyghurs from Qamul, and other parts of East Turkistan is to seek for more information about the history which can offer us more evidence to make sure of who we were, and who we are, and who we will be. There is another conflict about the findings of the mummies. Everybody likes to state his own opinions about te history by taking evidences from those mummies. For western scholars, the mummies were the evidence that some ancient Euroepeans had immigrated to China. For the Chinese scholars, they are very strong evidences to prove the China's connection to the West from very early period. It's redicilius! Actually they have no rights to say anything. They are what we have to examine. They are what from we can find something of our origion!

I'd like to talk about the present sitiuation of Uyghurs and other ethniciites, as we were same people, and are the very close peoples. Maybe you've known. Before the Stalin's devision of the Turkic nations in the Central Asia, there were only three different languages in this area: Arabic, Persian, and Chaghatay Turkcesi, or the common Turk language. The common Truk langauge serverd to the local people as a communication langauge despite of the fact that they had different cultural background. These three languages had the whole inhabitants of the Central Asia tied strongly together. They had used one language and one alphabet. After Stalin's great invention of making people into differnt ethnicities, they had an idea about ethnicity and own identity. Then there were different languages, and different scripts. It caused Uyghurs cannot understand Turkmen, and Uzbeks to cannot read Uyghur, for example. I'm not talking more about others. Let's take an example of the Uyghurs in Sinkiang and Kazakhstan, and Uzbekstan. How much do the Uyghurs of Sinkiang know about the Uyghurs of the Central Asia? How much do they know about the Uyghurs of Sinkiang? How is the cultural touch between these two groups of Uyghurs? Even these Uyghurs use two different alphabet. You see the Germans, Austrians, Swiss, although they are different nations, they have the same cultural background. And to have cultural communication is a way of easy for them. What I'm mostly interested in is not only the history of Uyghurs, but the future of the Uyghurs. How can we make a strong cultural connection between these Uyghurs? And then between Uyghurs and Uzbeks?....

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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 22:26
Originally posted by YELKEN

 There were actually no nation called Uyghurs in East Turkistan 2500 years ago.
 
There were actually no nation called Uzbeks, Qazaqs, Turkmans 700 years ago. But this never means they don't have history before that time. what I mean here is that name of a group of people may change though the history. The main reason might be the compositional change within the group (Mixing). Among Turkic people Qirghiz and Uyghur are more ancient names.  You can guess why.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 22:37
Originally posted by YELKEN

 If they were Uyghurs, like the modern Uyghurs now, why did they clain themselves as Turks after their big  move to  Central Asia from Mongolian Steppe? Why did Mahmoud Kashigari claim themselves as Trks, not Uyghurs? It's certain that, he wrote about a country which was named Uyghur in his book 'Divanu Loghatit Trk? and it was close to Trk's border.
 
The language that Mahmod Kashigari wrote his book is "Haqaniye Turk Tili", scholarly proved to be Uyghur as the texts in Turpan. Why did he avoided calling themselves Uyghur? After converting to Islam, the Buddist Uyghurs in the east become the biggest enemy of Qarahanid. Uyghur equalled "Kafir", "Buddist", that's why after the People from Kucha and Turpan to Jimsar discarded the term Uyghur after they converted to Islam, too. They simply called themselves Musulman, or Turpanliq, Qeshqerliq etc.
 
 
 
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 22:51
Originally posted by YELKEN

 There were three languages were spoken in this area.
1. Arabic. It served as a holy, religious language.2.  Turkish, or Chaghatoy Turkish, which served as a daily language, or converstaonal language.
And the last one Persian served as a Cultural language. When it's time for the Soviet to govern this area, they made up many races here, such as: Uzbek, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Uyghur, Turkmen etc. This is the result of Soviet. Then there were the nations called Uzbek , Uyghur, Kazakh, Kyrgyz,...etc. Turks of Central Asia no longer existed.
 

You are totaly wrong.  The three languages taught at Madrises (Shools), not spoken among people.

Arabic was a religious language, very few people who were involved in religious activities understood it. People prayed in Arabic, but not awaring what they were saying.

Some poets wrote their poems in Persian, as well as in Turkic. However, there were abundant, continuos Turkic literature all through the history. People sang in Turkic, recite epics in Turkic,  wrote philosophical, historical and other types of books in Turkic. So how come Persian can be the cultural language?

 

 

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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 22:58
Originally posted by YELKEN

 When it's time for the Soviet to govern this area, they made up many races here, such as: Uzbek, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Uyghur, Turkmen etc. This is the result of Soviet. Then there were the nations called Uzbek , Uyghur, Kazakh, Kyrgyz,...etc. Turks of Central Asia no longer existed.
 

They didn't made up the names, just encouraged these people to split themselves. Actually these people did have historical differences, especially in the near history, although they can be catogorized to one term "turkic" or "Turk".

 

  

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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 23:03
Originally posted by YELKEN

 
Before the occupation of Trks in central asia, there had been living Iranic people.
 
Not necessarily, Tocharians were Indo-European. 
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 23:16
Originally posted by YELKEN

 
Before the occupation of Trks in central asia, there had been living Iranic people. During the Ghinggiz Khan's ruling time, numbers of Mongols arrived to Central Asia, and make the origion more complicated, more confused. So we even cannot be clear about who we are, who we were.

We modern Uyghurs are a  mixure of Uyghurs in the Steppe and the local Indo-European, Iranic people such as Tochri, Soghdi and Saka etc. It's out of question we assimilated some mongols, but the number isn't significant at all.

The region had already almost been Turkified ( Uyghurfied) prior to the movement of the Uyghurs' in the steppe (Ruling class). As this region was under the continuos control of Hon, Aqhon, Gok-turk, Qanqil, Uyghur rulings, since before 2000 years.  Or you can never explain the three Uyghur kingdoms built in this region just after the collapse of the Uyghur Empire. Remember, they were in a very few number, due to  the plague, famine, natural disater, and war between Qirgizs.

 

 

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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 23:20
Originally posted by Sultan

 i Hope Anyone Who Is Interested In The Turks With All It Groups To Read Books Written By Turks Not Chinese , Russians Nor Persians.

I doubt they are also not biased.  My point is read many types of books, and get the conclution yourself.

 

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  Quote JiNanRen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 23:23
So you agree that Uyghurs, migrated into the Tarim Basin in the 8th century A.D., and assimilated/turkified into the local populations of indo-europeans, turks and settle nexts to small remnants of Chinese population in the region.

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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 23:26

Originally posted by tadamson


After the Uighur capital was overthrown by the Kirghiz, the ruling classes migrated to thhe Khotan whare they set up and ruled semi settled kingdoms untill the Mongols came. 

Where did you learn that?

Uyghurs took three routes, one to the south west( Gansu) and built Kangsu kingdom, one to the west (Turpan and Beshbaliq) and built Ediqut kingdom, and one to the far west (Qeshqer) and built Qarahanid kingdom. Hoten was included in the Qarahanids.  

 

 

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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 23:27

Originally posted by JiNanRen

So you agree that Uyghurs, migrated into the Tarim Basin in the 8th century A.D., and assimilated/turkified into the local populations of indo-europeans, turks and settle nexts to small remnants of Chinese population in the region.

Read intently my posts, I said the region was well Uyghurified before the ruling calss migration.

 

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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 23:30

Originally posted by JiNanRen

So you agree that Uyghurs, migrated into the Tarim Basin in the 8th century A.D., and assimilated/turkified into the local populations of indo-europeans, turks and settle nexts to small remnants of Chinese population in the region.

I think you people always confuse the modern Uyghurs and the ancient Uyghurs.  Use the brain above your head, it isn't stone.

 

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