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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Aryan Invasion Theory
    Posted: 29-Jul-2011 at 18:52
If any of you guys, who ignore my postings like the plague, have any missing relatives, or some that you have been unable to contact for the last few years, I would suggest that you take a trip across America, and even the poorest State (Mississippi) and you might well be able to find them?

Your former citizens now are enveloped within our old Southern culture, and most of them seem to be doing quite well and some of them are even friends of mine.

But they all seem to have but one thing in common. They seem to easily become business people, and tend to become easy people to speak to and become friends with. I have never really questioned their "caste!"

And they are "Legion!" Smile!

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Posts: 21 		  Quote Ancient Dravidian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2011 at 19:08
Originally posted by balochii

^ that is true for most of india today, but not for the northwest part of south asia, places like all pakistan, kashmir, himachal and northern punjab, all have a lot off dna from outsiders.

True, but that does only apply to upper classes. the lower class strata is similar to surrounding Indians.
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2011 at 13:59
^ that is true for most of india today, but not for the northwest part of south asia, places like all pakistan, kashmir, himachal and northern punjab, all have a lot off dna from outsiders.
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Posts: 21 		  Quote Ancient Dravidian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2011 at 04:22
Indian genes are not "diverse". Studies say, that there has ben little genetic influx into India.Clap
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Posts: 62 		  Quote Wadjet Horus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2011 at 18:48
What is the earliest evidence of PIE? The sanskrit!! Other tablets which are considered to PIE are les supported by evidence than the aryan invasion.
 
Indian people is genetically diverse, it explains there have been if not only one, but several waves of invasion from the west. Maybe aryans were just one of them.
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2011 at 21:42
Actually, I would prefer to offer the proposal that it was not a racial or language problem that engendered the problems seen above, but a "religious" problem, E.g., the "Arian" problem?

Only the time periods need be adjusted!

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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2011 at 17:14
^ DNA has proven that out of india theory is 100% bogus, there are so many haplogroups thaht exist with in the india that hardly even exist in pakistan, let alone countries like afghanistan, iran, central asia or europe, clearly indicating that no indian travelled outside india, because if they did you will these (indian) haplogroups in other populations, but they dont, even in most pakistanis they dont.
 
DNA is the best way to prove this theory false
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 18:34
I reiterate, that I do not ascribe or subscribe to the "skin colour" theory!

I would rather relate it to the clothing worn by those in power!

That is, all classes (rich, poor,religious, etc.) were recognized by the clothing that they wore! It might have especially been recognized by the head-gear (and its colour) that one wore?

And, if not the head-gear, then it was distinguished by the "tunic" and its markings! But, perhaps both had meaning?

But, this is just my opinion, and like ass-holes, we all have them!

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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2010 at 22:39
There is no proof available to justify an Aryan Invasion/migration to Indian subcontinent.
AIT is a theory generated from the race prejudice of British Colonial rule.And there are many Indians and pakistanis who blindly believes in such a theory eventhough there is no Genetical,Archaeological,Linguistic,geographical or Historical proof for such a Migration or Invasion.And till date it is being taught as part of academics in many institutions.

Every Archaeologist & Geneticist in this field has attested a long presence of these people in thgeir own lands.
Every Genetical study has attested the continuity of the genetical traits of the people in this area and has ruled out any invasion or migration from 7000BC till 600BC.

Archaeologists has outruled any sort of migration or invasion based on the continuity of material culture in the indus-sarasvati sites.

Geographical proofs indicate climatic and tectonic issues for the decline of the civilization.Drying up of Sarasvati and change of path of other major rivers which resulted in changing the area from semi Arid to arid area was the reason for the decline of the civilization.

The place names and rivernames of the Area are, were and had been sanskrit and no trace of any other names in any other languages is till date unavailable.

Astronomical references provided in the texts like Rigveda are known to have occurred during 4677BC placing it much before the period of any migration/invasion.

And there is no indo-centric view involved in this and proofs for each of this had been already provided in the earlier posts.And it is an individual's choice whether or not to believe it.
But no matter who believes or not believe, time will uncover the truth


Edited by ranjithvnambiar - 19-Dec-2010 at 22:41
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2010 at 10:33
^ they have clearly disagreed with you, out of india theory is only believed by nationalistic hindus, nobody else believes that Dark skinned indians would go in to central asia and Europe and bring the indo-european languages and culture to them, the whole thing is so bogus. Let me repeat, Indians have never ever stepped outside india ok, no proof of this exists at all, while all other empires have invaded india from the west, this is clear
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2010 at 09:49
Originally posted by balochii

^ dude give it up already, nobody is trusting you, your false knowledge has already been exposed. Your thinking is exactly like afro-centric people, who think africa and  blacks are the source of every civilization, in your case you think India is
 
in all their history, original people of india, who are darkskinned have never gone outside their borders, almost everybody has invaded india from the west and so did the aryans
Speak for yourself, not for others...

Let others think what they want to..They have the capability of thinking and analysing..


Edited by ranjithvnambiar - 18-Dec-2010 at 09:53
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2010 at 17:41
As a total outsider, with no axe to grind, I would suggest that both of you consider a "truce?"

There seems to be no head-way being made by either side and it is becoming more and more a racists or skin colour argument!

So, I would suggest that both of you just "agree" to "dis-agree?"

"Lions, tigers and ?, oh my!"

Any takers?

Look, if one side does not agree with the other side, then this becomes an endless argument!

You might well argue if it was not an "Arian" invasion? That is a conflicting religion!

Do, either of you intend to do this for eternity?

Edited by opuslola - 16-Dec-2010 at 17:55
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2010 at 13:51
^ dude give it up already, nobody is trusting you, your false knowledge has already been exposed. Your thinking is exactly like afro-centric people, who think africa and  blacks are the source of every civilization, in your case you think India is
 
in all their history, original people of india, who are darkskinned have never gone outside their borders, almost everybody has invaded india from the west and so did the aryans


Edited by balochii - 16-Dec-2010 at 13:53
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2010 at 02:51
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Provide proofs for your claims.
If have genetical prooof to substantiate your claim, provide it, instead of preaching wrong theories.
Originally posted by balochii

you just posted some actors/models and saying that dravidians look like that??
With due deference to the above points, I have the following anecdotal observation:
 
My Catholic church has several dozen families of Indian immigrants.  With the exception of one woman and her husband, none of the families have light complections or strong indo aryan physical features. 
 
Most Indian Christians are from the south. The ratio at the church seems to be 90% dark complected to 10% light complected (to varying degrees) with perhaps 3% of the total (one family and a visiting priest) very light. If there are substantial numbers of light complected Indians who are native to the south, should not the sample population at the church have a higher light to dark ratio?
 
I am also assuming that the light complected people are from south India (the priest was from Mumbai). I realize that this observation is anectdotal, but I made it as objectively as possible. Is there an explanation?
 
Ofcourse thereare darkskinned people in South India.
Dont mix your church to find this out.
There are several Syriac orthodox christians in South India who has a history of nearly 2000years.
They are believed to be converted by St.Thomas.Most of them are wheatish complexion.

The Catholic and other(pentecostal,CSI etc) christian churches are actually targetting the tribal populations all over India.And most of the tribals from Kerala,Tamilnadu,Andhra & East India has converted to christianity.

South India has both darkskinned and light skinned populations.Western states of South India(kerala,Karnataka) has less number of Darkskinned people as compared to that of Eastern states(Andhra,Tamilnadu).The percentage of Darkskinned people in South India are more compared to that of North India, but the ratios proposed by balochii are wrong.

Present Indian population as per studies , are a mix of two resident populations ie that of Ancestral North Indian and that of Ancestral South Indian
Ancestral South Indian population is known to have migrated to India from Africa 64000years ago.
Ancestral North Indian population is known to have migrated to  India 44000 years ago from Central Asia.Studies had proved this


And Ancestral South Indian population
 are more close to Africans and Ancestral North Indian
population to Central Asians.Every community in India has 30-70% of genetical traits of ASI.And communities closer to ANI are found in the North western part of India and people closer to ASI are found in the south eastern parts of India.
Studies had proved that Pure ASI populations are not available today and the most close communities to ASI are known to be in Andaman and Nicobar islands and may be Siddi community of Karnataka.

Balochii is misleading the whole debate.Dravidians belong to south India and there is no skincolour attached to dravidians.It is infact a language family.

Earlier he used to say whole of South Indians are dark skinned now he is saying 90%.He is clearly speaking about something which he has no idea about.

And about Aryan Theory He earlier spoke about some Russian Aryan Cities and now he says  Aryans originated in Central Asia. 
And about the skin colour of Aryans there is absolutelly no genetical proof available about the skin colour of Aryans.
But there are enough proofs available showing the long presence of Indians in the so called invaded areas. 
And this theory of white aryans invading Indus valley and producing hybrids doesnt have any genetical proof to substantiate it.
Aryan Invasion.migration theory says Horse riding hrdes of White Aryan migrated to /invaded Indus valley  in 1700BC.
But this theory has no genetical proofs.There is no proof for any change in genetical traits indicating the intervention of a new race in the area.
I have in my earlier posts  provided links to the studies conducted on the various ethnic people of Asia and also specific to this area and other parts of India.None of the studies indicate a change in genetical traits.

And archaeological studies till date has not recorded any change of material culture during this period(1700BC to 1500BC) whicyh is negating any possibility of a migration or invasion to this area.




A "Sumerian seal of Gilgamesh having two lions" was collected from Indus valley but no Indus valley seals are not known to have lions.


And  AIT proponents also claims that the aryans after the invasion/migration started composing Rigveda and all other vedic literature.
Rigveda extensively speaks about the River Sarasvati and its banks and the holy sites where the Bharatas conducted fire rituals like Manusa titra,Apaya tirta and Ilayaspada of Haryana.
Sarasvati River is mentioned in almost all its mandalas and several hymns are devoted to River Sarasvati.
Detailed Geographic studies and satellite imagery had helped in locating the Rigvedic Sarasvati and has identified the Gaggar-Hakra river as sarasvati.This river is now ewnding at thar desert in Rajastan.
Studies say that Sarasvati was a mighty river which at palces were wide upto 15kms and it dried up in 2000BCdue to tectonic changes.


Rigveda mentions sarasvati as a mighty river and it is praised as Naditama(best of all rivers) and Nadimata(mother of all rivers) and describes sarasvati as a river originating in Himalayas and flowing to the ocean.So the composers of Rigveda were familiar with the mighty Sarasvati which originated in the Himalayas and ended in Ocean.
This proves that Rigveda was composed during the healthy flow of Sarasvati
ie centuries before 2000BC.
According to AIT Aryans came in 1700BC,and Sarasvati dried up in 2000BC 300years before the coming of Aryans and Rigveda was composed much before that ie before the drying of Sarasvati.


Edited by ranjithvnambiar - 15-Dec-2010 at 08:51
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2010 at 12:52
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Provide proofs for your claims.
If have genetical prooof to substantiate your claim, provide it, instead of preaching wrong theories.
Originally posted by balochii

you just posted some actors/models and saying that dravidians look like that??
With due deference to the above points, I have the following anecdotal observation:
 
My Catholic church has several dozen families of Indian immigrants.  With the exception of one woman and her husband, none of the families have light complections or strong indo aryan physical features. 
 
Most Indian Christians are from the south. The ratio at the church seems to be 90% dark complected to 10% light complected (to varying degrees) with perhaps 3% of the total (one family and a visiting priest) very light. If there are substantial numbers of light complected Indians who are native to the south, should not the sample population at the church have a higher light to dark ratio?
 
I am also assuming that the light complected people are from south India (the priest was from Mumbai). I realize that this observation is anectdotal, but I made it as objectively as possible. Is there an explanation?
 
 
 his post is really deceiving, even north indians from punjab are not light skinned like that, your observation is correct, 90%+ people from the south have dark skin, even in the north around punjab, i would say 60% have darkskin just like dravdians, the rest 40% have brown skin ranging from dark brown to light brown.
 
He is just picking and choosing the best looking actors/models from the south and saying all dravdians look like thisLOL


Edited by balochii - 14-Dec-2010 at 16:32
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2010 at 12:51
^  indeed lions were very comman throughout, but trust me this guy wont even believe you
there are so many articles on lions being in the indus valley itself: http://www.suite101.com/content/unlocking-the-secrets-of-ancient-iconography-a187646
 
Indus valley was once a very fertile valley, infact lions are found on indus valley seals themselves: http://www.conservationandsociety.org/article.asp?issn=0972-4923;year=2008;volume=6;issue=4;spage=337;epage=338;aulast=
 
but yet he is still arguing that lions are only present in east india


Edited by balochii - 14-Dec-2010 at 16:32
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Posts: 326 		  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2010 at 12:45
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Then why they are mentioning about wild elephants..?
And if you say pakistan has wild elephants..provide proofs..

Lions are not good swimmers.And they were not at all known to be present in Pakistan..
Are saying that lions swam to pakistan to show their presenceLOL
 
I would like to help the discussion with little information. The scientific abbreviation of Asiatic lion is "Panthera leo persica" and lions were quite common to all Iranian plateau and the Middle East in the very near historical time. The last sighting of a live Asiatic Lion in Iran was in 1941 between Shiraz and Jahrom in Fars province. In 1944, the corpse of a lioness was found on the banks of Karun river, Khuzestan province.
 
 
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2010 at 10:39
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Provide proofs for your claims.
If have genetical prooof to substantiate your claim, provide it, instead of preaching wrong theories.
Originally posted by balochii

you just posted some actors/models and saying that dravidians look like that??
With due deference to the above points, I have the following anecdotal observation:
 
My Catholic church has several dozen families of Indian immigrants.  With the exception of one woman and her husband, none of the families have light complections or strong indo aryan physical features. 
 
Most Indian Christians are from the south. The ratio at the church seems to be 90% dark complected to 10% light complected (to varying degrees) with perhaps 3% of the total (one family and a visiting priest) very light. If there are substantial numbers of light complected Indians who are native to the south, should not the sample population at the church have a higher light to dark ratio?
 
I am also assuming that the light complected people are from south India (the priest was from Mumbai). I realize that this observation is anectdotal, but I made it as objectively as possible. Is there an explanation?
 


Edited by Cryptic - 14-Dec-2010 at 11:36
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 23:07

Genetic evidence for the origin of Indian caste populations



Genetic heritage of the earliest settlerspersists both in Indian caste and tribe populations



Central asian ethnic groups

Afganistan ethnic groups
Pakistan ethnic groups

India

Aryan & Dravidian Languages
Linguistic groups
Vedic India


Aryan Invasion Theory
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 22:52
Originally posted by balochii

Originally posted by Cryptic

Please keep try to keep the discussion civil.
 
As a side note, light complections seem to be indigenous to some parts of Europe.   Study the photos of the  Sa'ami and other Finno Ugaric people in this thread.   These peoples have been in Europe and northwest Siberia since neolitihic times. 
 
Please note their very distinctive cheek bones which are unlike Indo Aryan peoples. 
 
These people do not resemble any Indo Aryans. Therefore, light complected genes seem to be indigenous to both some parts of Europe and also indigenous to some parts of the ancient Indo Aryan homeland.
 
Originally posted by medenaywe

My personal opinion is:Those that were conquerors have left traces,but had not changed mayor DNA plan.
I think this guy has a good point.  Indo Aryans did not bring light complected genes to Europe. Rather, their light complected genes supplemented what was already there.
 
indo europeans were a people of central asia, not of india nor europe. Central asians were caucasians before the invasions of turks and mongols, most likely they looked like the some caucasian we still see in places like central asia, northern iran, northern afghanistan, northern pakistan. ofcourse i am not denying that europeans were already white before the indo aryans cames, however indo europeans themselves were also white, perhaps with a bit different facial features, like modern day white pashtuns.
 
But to say that they were from india, which is a largerly dravdian land is not true, if this was true, surely they would have left traces of their culture/looks in central asia and even europe, this is not true at all. India is a very hot land, how could indians even leave that place go in to central asia/europe and survive there in the harsh winter, espeically central asia where temperatures can drop to -30.  there is no archaeological evidence of this at all. The aryans cities that are being found in Russia and Kazakhstan, do not resemble any thing indian. There is no record of indians ever leaving the subcontinent.

Provide proofs for your claims.If indo-eoropeans originated in central asia prove it.
None of the genetical studies conducted so far has attested this claim
The word Dravidam itself is related to Tamil.Dravidians are inhabitants oof South India.And there  are many races of people belonging to this group.


Here is astudy report which says Indian Ychromosomehas a presence inthis area from Neolithic age and it is not attesting any sort of migrations from west asia towards India.
Your repeating your concepts and beliefs is not going to make it a fact.

If have genetical prooof to substantiate your claim, provide it, instead of preaching wrong theories.
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