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Mongol enemies

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Poll Question: Who presented the most difficult challenge for the Mongols?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
15 [13.16%]
34 [29.82%]
2 [1.75%]
13 [11.40%]
1 [0.88%]
6 [5.26%]
36 [31.58%]
3 [2.63%]
2 [1.75%]
2 [1.75%]
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mongol enemies
    Posted: 22-Aug-2005 at 15:34
Pick an enemy to oppose the illustrious mongol war machine. Who stood the best chance of survival? Why?
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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2005 at 16:33
I voted for the Japanese because they did have light horse arhcers and pretty good lancers. 

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  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2005 at 01:10
All the factions exterior of their borders: the Mameluks, Japanese, SE asians, Indians, and even Europeans were challenges the Mongols never totally subdued.

Of all their conquests and campaign, the most formidable foe was probably the Jin and Song Empires.
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2005 at 01:17

 

i would vote for the Memluks not that i have huge big reasons its just i dont have enough info about any other mongols challenges.

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  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2005 at 09:01
ps  Kara Khitai - by the time of the Mongols arrival they had been usurped and effectivly ceased to exsist.  Khitan remnants (and Uighir subjects) became enthusiastic allies of Temuljin, Mongol troops were seen as liberators.

rgds.
         Tom.. 
rgds.

      Tom..
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2005 at 12:55

Temuchin accepted his title Genghis Khan in a kurultai in the year 1206. Following his unification of the steppe tribes, he sent Jebe in 1218 to subdue Kuchlug and the Naimans. Eventually Kuchlug was killed after taking refuge among the Gurkan of Kara-Khitai.. Hence the Kara-Kitai land he hid in was then integrated into Mongol suzerainty.

I will soon present a brief note on all the Mongol enemies. Today's choice is about the European heavy cavalry. The easiest target for the Mongols were the Europeans. Such heavy cavalry were usually effective when they could successfully attempt and complete a charge onto the Mongol forces. The problem with this tactic is that the Mongols were too fluid. They never put themselves into a position where mounted knights could hurt them. Battles like Leignitz and Mohi were such occasions where European armour was overcome by Mongol tactics.

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  Quote dick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2005 at 18:52
Where are the Naimans and the Jin? These are by far the most formidable enemies of the Mongols, because they actually threatened Mongol existence, none of the others did.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2005 at 21:23

Good question. Again a case of picking only 10 enemies out of numerous possibilities. The Naimans were double jeopardy for the Mongols. At first during the mongol-turk civil wars and later when 30,000 Naimans aided Kuchlug in their rebellion. 

The Jin were difficult to overcome. However, they were one of the first to lose to the mongols. So maybe I did not think so highly of them as I created this poll.



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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2005 at 04:35

Hmmm......Let's see:

From the start of Mongol campaign against an empire to its final demise

The Jin lasted from around 1211 (start of Mongol campaign) to 1235.  Intersting to note that a Jin general, Wanyan Chenheshang, actually beat Subutai in a battle.

The Song lasted from 1242 (start of Song attack on Luoyang and former Jin land controlled by Mongols) to 1279.  Mongke Khan died during the campaign at Sichuan.  Battle of Xiangyang started in 1272 and lasted 3 years.  Surrender of Linan. 

The Khwarazmian empire lasted from 1219 (start of Chingghis Khan's Western trek) to 1223.  Capture of Buhara and Samarakand.  Jal Al Din managed to last a few more years.

The Cumans were immediate casualties of both Mongol European campaigns, 1226 and 1236-41.  Later Cumans sought refuge in the Kingdom of Hungary, until Batu's men sacked Hungary.

Assassins were swept by Hulegu during his campaign from 1256-60.  Capture and destruction of Alamut.

Survivors of Mongol invasion: Mamluks and Japanese

Mamluks own their survival to the death of Mongke Khan and Hulegu's withdrawal, allowing Baybars to outnumber the Mongol-Armenian troops in Ain Jalut

Japanese own their survival to geography

 



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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2005 at 08:07

Mongol enemies continue:  The Assassins (Ismailis-Shiites). The Assassins stationed their garrisons on a series of castles located on various hilltops near the Caspian sea. Fortresses were also built along mountains from Afghanistan to Syria. They used taraction trebuchets and hand-held crossbows in their defense. The Mongols used large siege crossbows positioned on opposing mountain peaks. For ammo were 'fire arrows'. Soon they were to use mangonels as well. Anyway, after spying and jousting for supreme positioning of 'artillary', the Assassins eventually surrendered their castles to relentless mongol aggression. Hulagu didn't have to capture all enemy fortresses. The Assassins already killed their grandmaster. Yet other important Imams were to be dealt with. Offers of peace and the fear of mongol firepower, was enough for the Mongols to attack only a few castles of prominance. Once captured, the Mongols would offer clemency to defenders of other castles. The path towards Baghdad now lay open.

Assassins lacked a conventional military army. Yet they excersized tremendous political power due to their system of terror and assassinations. They would recruit young men with the promise of instant martyrdom (sounds like todays fanatical leaders). Recruits were often enticed by the abuse of hashish also. The Hashashin leaders thus controlled their followers with obedience and made them fearless. Their motto was to kill any opposing leader.

History for the Assassins currently reflect a more linguistic note due to their political means of murder.



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  Quote Nagyfejedelem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2005 at 14:51

Hungary had not only heavy cavalry in that time.

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  Quote dick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2005 at 15:29

Seko, so you didn't include Naiman and Jin because they were the first to fall?

But they Aren't! The Khwarazmian fell before the Jin, even though Genghis invaded Jin first.

Jin actually defeated the Mongols on the field with inferior soldiers and in sieges many times.

The Khwarazmian hardly put up a fight, they only defeated the Mongols once.

 

 

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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2005 at 16:25

I would not say that the Jin army was inferior, at least not in size.  The Jin had twice as many infantry as the Mongols, and as many cavalry. 

Although the Song was weak politically, its army, in the later years, was geared toward the Mongols.  It's core was massive anti-cavalry units of heavy infantry with zhan ma dao (these units are similiar to billmen and halbrediers in later Middle Age Europe, but armed to the teeth)  The Song also featured the most technically advanced firearms of the time, and the war between the Song and the Mongols was the first in which true firearms were used.

Khwarazm would have fared better if the Sultan had listened to the words of his son Jal Al Din.  In theory, Chingghis Khan traveled thousands of kilometers to Khwarazm, making the Mongol Army extremely vulnerable in foreign lands.  The correct strategy, as promoted by Jal Al Din, was to attack the Mongol Army when before it could rest, and not to scatter the Khwarazmian army into various cities and wait for the Mongols to capture the cities eventually.

The Mamluks and the Japanese were simply lucky.

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2005 at 20:51

Ode to dick.

 Since you are keeping me on my toes I will add the Jin in a future installment of Mongol enemies.

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  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2005 at 01:11
It is thought that the Jin had more cavalry than the Mongols, as well as a ton of infantry, so they were a potentially powerful opponent.

The least formidable in terms of performance was probably the Kwarezmians. The rate they collapsed for such an empire of its size is just remarkable, even embarassing. It is said that they lost Samarkand to the Mongols even though the city garisson outnumbered the besiegers.


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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2005 at 09:40

Mongol enemies part 3: Naimans and Kara-khitai

Prior to official unification in 1206, the warring tribes of mongolia consisted of Tungus, Turkic and Mongol stock. Naimans were from the Altai range, Keraits were in the central zones of mongolia, Tatars in the east, and Merkits from the north. Around the Onon river were the Mongols.

During their civil wars, the last of the tribes to succomb to Mongol power were the Naimans. The Turko-Naiman Khan sent his bowmen to the east to meet Temuchin head on before any destruction could be laid to Naiman pastures. The battle turned sour for the westerners. The Naimans retreated to higher grounds and half hazzardly drew back all together. One of the last to face the onslaught was the Naiman Khan who lost his life. His son Kuchluk fled southwest to take shelter with the Kara-Khitans.

The Kara-Khitans were a non-denominational confederacy led by members of a Chinese imperial dynasty known as the Khitan. Most of the inhabitants of the Kara-Khitai were Uighurs, Persians, Chinese and other Turkic tribes. At the time of Ghengis Khan's expidition against them the Kara-Khitai were weakened by wars with the Kwaresmians in 1210.

Soon the fleeing Kuchluk seized the throne. He persecuted the Moslem Turks of who formed the majority of his subjects. With requests form the oppressed, Ghengis had a new reason to explore the boundaries of his empire and take out retribution against Kuchluk. The Khan sent Jebe and twenty thousand troops for an invasion with the pretext to restore religious freedom. They were welcomed as liberators. In 1218 the Mongol confederation killed Kuchluk and became masters of the inner steppe.

Closer then he would like, the upstart Kwarezmian Shah also had a new neighbor to deal with...

 

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2005 at 15:31
Originally posted by poirot

The Jin lasted from around 1211 (start of Mongol campaign) to 1235.  Intersting to note that a Jin general, Wanyan Chenheshang, actually beat Subutai in a battle.

The Song lasted from 1242 (start of Song attack on Luoyang and former Jin land controlled by Mongols) to 1279.  Mongke Khan died during the campaign at Sichuan.  Battle of Xiangyang started in 1272 and lasted 3 years.  Surrender of Linan. 

I would not say that the Jin army was inferior, at least not in size.  The Jin had twice as many infantry as the Mongols, and as many cavalry. 

Although the Song was weak politically, its army, in the later years, was geared toward the Mongols.  It's core was massive anti-cavalry units of heavy infantry with zhan ma dao (these units are similiar to billmen and halbrediers in later Middle Age Europe, but armed to the teeth)  The Song also featured the most technically advanced firearms of the time, and the war between the Song and the Mongols was the first in which true firearms were used.

 

sorry, but where do you have that utter _____ from? CHF?



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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2005 at 18:29
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by poirot

The Jin lasted from around 1211 (start of Mongol campaign) to 1235.  Intersting to note that a Jin general, Wanyan Chenheshang, actually beat Subutai in a battle.

The Song lasted from 1242 (start of Song attack on Luoyang and former Jin land controlled by Mongols) to 1279.  Mongke Khan died during the campaign at Sichuan.  Battle of Xiangyang started in 1272 and lasted 3 years.  Surrender of Linan. 

I would not say that the Jin army was inferior, at least not in size.  The Jin had twice as many infantry as the Mongols, and as many cavalry. 

Although the Song was weak politically, its army, in the later years, was geared toward the Mongols.  It's core was massive anti-cavalry units of heavy infantry with zhan ma dao (these units are similiar to billmen and halbrediers in later Middle Age Europe, but armed to the teeth)  The Song also featured the most technically advanced firearms of the time, and the war between the Song and the Mongols was the first in which true firearms were used.

 

sorry, but where do you have that utter bullsh*t from? CHF?

Temujin, read my reply below.



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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2005 at 18:30
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by poirot

The Jin lasted from around 1211 (start of Mongol campaign) to 1235.  Intersting to note that a Jin general, Wanyan Chenheshang, actually beat Subutai in a battle.

The Song lasted from 1242 (start of Song attack on Luoyang and former Jin land controlled by Mongols) to 1279.  Mongke Khan died during the campaign at Sichuan.  Battle of Xiangyang started in 1272 and lasted 3 years.  Surrender of Linan. 

I would not say that the Jin army was inferior, at least not in size.  The Jin had twice as many infantry as the Mongols, and as many cavalry. 

Although the Song was weak politically, its army, in the later years, was geared toward the Mongols.  It's core was massive anti-cavalry units of heavy infantry with zhan ma dao (these units are similiar to billmen and halbrediers in later Middle Age Europe, but armed to the teeth)  The Song also featured the most technically advanced firearms of the time, and the war between the Song and the Mongols was the first in which true firearms were used.

sorry, but where do you have that utter bullsh*t from? CHF?

Temujin, don't **** with me.

 I am very sure that I know more about Jin and Song history than you do.  I respect you as a knowledgeable historian, but in this area, I think you don't want to be overly offensive.   As a native I know what I am talking about. 

Some things in CHF may be crap, but I respect Yun's scholarly approach and would prefer to listen to him than to you.

Oh, just for your satisfication, I did not get the information about the Jin from CHF!

Make sure that you think before you write little comments about other people's posts



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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2005 at 19:00

Seems like you are unconvinced that the great Subutai could be defeated in a battle.

Subutai DID LOSE to Wanyan Chenheshang.

Wanyan Chenheshang was a Jurchen general, of the Wanyan royal clan of the Jin Empire.  He was born in what is now Inner Mongolia.  His personal troops consisted of Jurchens, Hans, migrant Naimans, Tibetan minorities, and Uguhirs.

In 1229, Wanyan, commanding a group of 400 men in what is now Kansu Province, defeated a Mongol cavalry force consisting of 8000 men, led by one of Chingghis Khan's most senior generals.

In 1230, Wanyan led his personal troops to counter Subutai, whom Ogedai Khan commissioned to attack Tongguan Pass.  Wanyan defeated Subutai in Lantian County, west of Tongguan Pass. 

Wanyan's success against the Mongols convinced Ogedai Khan to personally mobilize a campaign against the Jin Empire.  In 1232, Wanyan was finally captured and brought to Toulei, Chingghis' fourth son.   Toulei ordered Wanyan's execution.



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