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Mongol enemies

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Poll Question: Who presented the most difficult challenge for the Mongols?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
15 [13.16%]
34 [29.82%]
2 [1.75%]
13 [11.40%]
1 [0.88%]
6 [5.26%]
36 [31.58%]
3 [2.63%]
2 [1.75%]
2 [1.75%]
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TranHungDao View Drop Down
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  Quote TranHungDao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mongol enemies
    Posted: 02-Jun-2007 at 10:20
Originally posted by Temujin

there was no Vietnam back then, the first "invasion" was in fact a raid carried out by Sube'edais son whose name is just too long and complicated for me to remember. Dai Viet was invaded once, and Champa was ivnaded once from sea AFAIR.


Dai Viet and Vietnam are the same thing.  Champa was a non-Vietnamese kingdom which occupied the central region of Vietnam.  Southern Vietnam was then part of the Khmer empire.  (Vietnam overran Champa back in the 1600's, annexing the land.  Southern modern day Vietnam, then controlled by the Khmers, fell shortly after.)  Dai Viet was tiny compared to modern day Vietnam, probably only 1/3 of the size.

There were three invasions into Vietnam. 


1257:    25,000 men
1284:  500,000 men  vs 200,000 Vietnamese (including some women & children)
1287:  300,000 men  vs 200,000 Vietnamese (including some women & children)

These figures, on the Mongol/Yuan side, are found in ancient Chinese/Yuan records and are accepted by (third party) Western scholars.

One invasion of Champa, probably not that big.  By way of comparison, the two invasions into Japan 1274 (about 25,000 men) and 1281 (140,000 men), were much, much smaller than the 2nd and 3rd invasions of Dai Viet/Vietnam.

All four invasions ended in disasters.  Very few returned alive. 
Vietnamese abandoned the cities, used scorched earth, guerilla warfare and frontal battle to defeat 2nd and 3rd Mongol invasions.  I'm not sure what tactics were used to defeat the much smaller first invasion.

A 4th invasion was planned for Vietnam, but it was cancelled due to Kublai's death.

Without question, Vietnam was the Mongols toughest enemy.  And FYI, Vietnam also defeated, and more often than not routed, enormous Chinese armies (200,000 men) from Ming and Q'ing, as well as the PRC in 1979.  These were not guerilla wars at all.  North Vietnam vs the US was a guerilla war.

With the notable exception of nearly 100 years of French colonial rule, Vietnam has been undefeated since independence from China back in 938 CE.  But then again, the French were beaten at Dien Bien Phu back in 1954.


----------------------
Lol, it's pretty funny that Vietnam was left out of this list.


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Penelope View Drop Down
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 01:16
Well, you've all made some good points. But also keep in mind, that the "most hated" enemy of the Mongol Nation as a whole, had to have been the Kharezmian Empire. As a Last resort, Genghis sent a final group of ambassadors to meet the Shah himself. The shah had all the men shaved and all but one Beheaded. Not only did the Mongols and Turks see this a disrespecting of their culture, but more importantly, they saw it as a Total "abomination" towards the Great Khan, whom they in fact, believed was a God. And ofcourse, if you disrespected the "God" of any nation, you could definately expect to "have it coming".
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  Quote Erdene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2007 at 17:33
For the Ilkhanids, I think the Malmuks were a side project, the main foe was the Golden Horde.........If only the different Mongol Khanates got on well Cry  
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  Quote Hulegu Han Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2007 at 14:07

Haha, It's not my interest to find Vietnamese on forum, I just want to know distinctions among Annam, Champa and Angkor to make it clear. If you know about it, enligthen me; I'll appreciate you.

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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 08:48

No, actually I'm not Vietnamese.  I'm just well-read in world history (LOLhaha--patting myself on the back).  This is mostly stuff I got out of college textbooks and the like.  You might have a little trouble finding Vietnamese people in online history forums.  Like most Asians, you'd have more luck finding them in an engineering forum or something like that hahaLOL!

BTW, if you really want to know my heritage is, I'm a mixture of Polish, Lithuanian, Irish and Spanish.  I get my interest in the Mongol Empire from my Polish and Lithuanian side.
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  Quote Hulegu Han Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 15:24
Originally posted by TheMysticNomad

Chams were originally a seperate nation from the Viets, as they are of a different ethnicity.  Their kingdom was eventually absorbed by Vietnam, but the Chams still exist, scattered across S. Vietnam and Cambodia. 
Are you vietnamese? If so, I want to ask questions related to Vietnames history to you?
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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2007 at 04:58
Chams were originally a seperate nation from the Viets, as they are of a different ethnicity.  Their kingdom was eventually absorbed by Vietnam, but the Chams still exist, scattered across S. Vietnam and Cambodia. 
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 19:17
so what about Champa, is it not Vietnam? there was no Vietnam back then, there were two Vietnam back then...
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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 07:41

There are probably Vietnamese out there who would take issue with your statement that "there was no Vietnam back then."  It would have been more appropriate to phrase it as something like "the country now known as Vietnam was known as Dai Viet at the time."

I know, people often have the urge to respond a little harshly to my posts.  Must be some kind of bad karma.Cry



Edited by TheMysticNomad - 07-Mar-2007 at 07:42
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 13:43
there was no Vietnam back then, the first "invasion" was in fact a raid carried out by Sube'edais son whose name is just too long and complicated for me to remember. Dai Viet was invaded once, and Champa was ivnaded once from sea AFAIR.
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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 09:51
I'm surprised the Vietnamese weren't mentioned yet.  There were two or three Mongol invasions of VN and each time the Mongols were repelled.  In the end, the Vietnamese submitted to a tributary relationship, but this was not very different from the standard tributary status of Vietnam toward earlier Chinese dynasties. 
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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 15:29
Definitely Mamluks , they defeat Ilkhanids in at least four major battles (Ayn Jalut, 1st and 2nd Homs and Elbistan) and in effect they expelled Mongols from Syria.
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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 04:38
The choice is actually for Poles, Hungarians, Russians, etc., not just Poles.  With that in mind, the 14 votes makes sense due to the long series of dust-ups between the Russians and the Golden Horde.
 
BTW, my vote went to the Japanese.  There were few defeats in history more dramatic than the "Divine Wind" episode of the Mongol naval invasion of Japan. 
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  Quote Top Gun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 15:10
hahaha 14 votes for the poles
 
a bit pro polish aren't you
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  Quote ProMongol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 01:40
I don't see any of these Russia, China, Mamlukes, Turkics as real challenging enemy of Mongols at that time.  They were all lost one after another
 
Well.. 
Actually most dreadful Mongol enemy was Mongols themselves. Mongold decline was laid within Mongol family, within family struggle of Chinggisids.
 
It even started when Chinggis Khaan was alive, it finished with destruction of Zhungar Empire.
 
Even Mamlukes won the battle with help of Berke.
 
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  Quote Onogur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 00:20

Yes, Genghis Khan lost to Jamuka, but that was a kind of a civil war - the enemies of the mongols were mongols. The point is.... if we consider mongols the greatest enemy of themselves, then there I do not see the idea of this topic.

And as I know the only war that Genghis Khan was defeated, was the war against Volga-Bulgaria. There was another war 13 years later,  that led to the distruction of Volga-Bulgaria, but it was after the death of Genghis Khan.
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  Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 21:37
Genghis Khan was also defeated once or twice in his early career. Of all people, it was his 'blood-brother' Jamuka who was the victor over him. Genghis eventually came out on top though. He may have lost some other battles (other than to Jamuka and Volga- Bulgars) too. 
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  Quote Onogur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 21:26

Nice question...

I have not vote yet, because I would have voted for Volga-Bulgars, and they are not on the list. These guys were the only army ever to defeat Genghis Khan.
 
Otherwise, my would vote for Russia, not for "Poles, Hungarians, Russians, other european kingdoms", but for Russia. If you take a look at a map of 13th century and then at a map of 19th century, you will see that most of the territories hold by the Mongols were taken over by the Russian empire. Hungarians and Poles were just wiped out by the mongols, China was conquered by the mongols, Japan was saved by a typhon, etc...
 
Anyway, I vote for Volga-Bulgaria!
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 07:19

The Northern Indian Turkic armies defeated the Mongols, they were some tough enemies for the Mongols.

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  Quote shurite7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2006 at 16:41
Here is part of the article I wrote.  The whole article was published in Lance and Longbow Historical Society. 
 

The Mongol Siege of Xiangyang and Fan-cheng and the Song military

By Chris Hanson

 

 

            The Siege of Xiangyang and Fan-cheng was one of the longest sieges of the medieval world lasting almost 5 years, from 1268 until early 1273, and was the longest campaign in the war against the Song Dynasty (pronounced sung). 

            Over the course of the campaign chroniclers record many heroic deeds were recorded, yet there is limited information about the siege itself.  Unlike the siege of Acre during the third crusade, between 1189 and 1191, where many separate events are recorded. Examples are the fraternization amongst Latin and Arab troops playing chess, and children wrestling where the parents of the losing child had to pay a ransom. Oriental sources quite often do not to cover individual battles/sieges in detail like the west.  However, oriental sources tend to give a broader perspective of the strategic war.  Finding detailed information about the siege of Xiangyang and Fan-cheng is difficult, however, there is some information in English sources regarding the siege of the two cities. 

            After Khubilai stabilized his northern territories he established himself as the great Khan of the Mongols and the emperor of China.  Khubilai then turned his resources to the south against the Nan (Southern) Song.  Although, Khubilai took part in earlier invasions of Song territory he did not participate in the siege or other campaigns against the Nan Song.  Instead Khubilai appointed A-chu as the principal commander of the siege.

            A-chu was a gifted commander coming from a family of great generals.              A-chus father was Urriyangkhadi, one of Khubilais greatest commanders, who in turn was the son of Subedei, the famous general under Chingis Khan. 

            Emperor Duzong appointed Lu Wen-huan and Zhang Tianshun, both committed military leaders and loyal to the Song court, as the military commanders to defend the cities.  Xiangyang and Fan-cheng, known today as Hubei, were located on opposite sides of the Han River which led to the Yangtze River.  Its strategic location made it a stronghold which blocked the invasion of Song territory.  In Morris Rossabis book Khubilai Khan: His Life and Times he states Rashid al-Dins, (a Persian historian), informant told him Xiangyang had a strong castle, a stout wall and a deep moat.   The two cities were connected via a pontoon bridge allowing troops to move from one city to the other.  The garrison inside both cities were well armed, morale was high and they had plenty of supplies--supposedly enough grain to last 10 years.  However, they lacked less unessential supplies such as salt and clothing.  To support the two cities, the Song used their fleet of ships (river junks) to bring in supplies or to support troops sallying from the cities.  The Song had many forms of siege engines, including gun powder weapons, to counter Mongol siege equipment.

Khubilai realized the capture of both cities would enable the Mongols to use them as a base of operations during the war.  Liu Zheng, a former Song officer who defected to the Mongols, recommended several forts be built in the Sichuan area to cut off grain and food supplies to the two cities.

            In 1268 the Mongols, led by A-chu and Liu Zheng, surrounded Xiangyang with an unknown number of troops.  After viewing the defenses, A-chu realized he could not assault the city without taking heavy casualties.  Therefore, he decided to blockade the city and starve the people.  However, A-chu discovered without a fleet he could not stop supplies from coming up the Han River into the twin cities.  A-chu sent word to Khubilai explaining his problem that his troops consisted primarily of cavalry and were not entirely suitable for the siege.  He requested Shi Shu, a northern Han Chinese commander in Mongol service who commanded several thousand northern Chinese troops, be sent to support the siege.  After the arrival of Shi Shu and his troops, which consisted almost entirely of Chinese infantry, both cities were surrounded.  Again the number of troops is unknown. 

            As the Mongols surrounded the twin cities, troops from Xiangyang tried to break out through the siege lines but failed.  There are no records of the number of soldiers who attempted to break through the Mongol lines, but Chinese sources state many Song troops were captured and beheaded.  From this point forward, the Song troops stayed within their walls and waited for supplies and reinforcements to arrive.

            When Shi Shu arrived, he commanded his troops to start building 500 river junks, training the crews and he was able to capture some river junks from the Song.  Two fortresses, Po-ho-kou and Lu-men shan, were built downriver from the twin cities to deal with the Song navy coming up the river.  In August of 1269 the Mongols and their Chinese allies were to have their first naval battle.  A Song general named Hsia Kuei with 3000 junks attacked Lu-men shan.  Hsia Kuei was defeated and fifty of his junks were captured.  What happened to the crews and other junks is either not recorded or possibly not translated into a western language.

            Over the course of the siege it appears Khubilai became unhappy with the lack of results and sent one of his trusted military advisors, Shih Tien-tse, to inspect, review and make suggestions to capture the two cities.  One of the suggestions Shih Tien-tse made was to build a rampart between the two forts, P-ho-kou and Lu-men shan to stop Song river junks from supplying the two cities.  After his review Shih Tien-tse authorized an additional 20,000 troops to reinforce A-chus army.  The Mongols even tried to dam the river or at least restrict the flow to render the pontoon bridge between the two cities unusable.  However, the garrisons of both cities still resisted the Mongols assaults and would not submit.  Even the Mongol changes in their siege tactics, Song officials were still able to find their way into the two cities.

            Throughout the siege, the Song imperial court remained adamant that it would not to surrender the two cities.  Some sources they indicate the Song emperor was kept ignorant of the siege and the threat of the Mongols.  Jia Sidao, the emperors chief advisor/councilor was in control of the imperial court and by some sources considered a treacherous minister full of corruption.  Other sources tend not to be as harsh and give him credit for changes within the court to reduce corruption.  However, he was not a military leader and was despised by many within the Song military.  Many commanders defected to the Mongols due to the decisions of Jia Sidao.  In one source, a concubine informed the emperor of the siege.  Later Jia Sidao had the concubine executed.  There is no doubt Jia Sidao was a ruthless and cunning individual who cherished his position within the imperial court.  The continued resistance of the two cities was important to Jia Sidao.  In an earlier campaigns against the Mongols, Jia Sidao claimed a victory after killing fewer than 200 of them, (yet in reality Khubilai was pulling back to deal with his succession).  If the two cities were to fall then the credibility of Jia Sidao would be undermined.  If they held, his position within the court would only strengthen.

            There seems to be little record about the Song Emperor Duzongs views on the siege of the twin cities in any literature reviewed.  Emperor Duzong was the adopted son of the previous emperor, Lizong.  Emperor Lizong was one of the weakest emperors of the Song Dynasty, taken to the pleasures of his concubines and neglecting his duties as emperor.  Duzong seems to have followed the examples set by his step-father and left the duties of government to Jia Sidao.  Had the emperor put as much effort into the defense of China as his people did the Song army may have held out much longer or even may have stopped the Mongol invasions. 

            There were many attempts made by the Song to break out of the cities.  One example occurred in March of 1270, when Lu Wen-huan decided to break out of the city with 10,000 troops consisting of infantry and cavalry.  The exact composition of the force is not given, but the Song took heavy casualties and had to retreat back into the city behind their walls.  The fact that 10,000 troops were involved is a testimony to the size of the garrison holding out inside the two cities. 

            Over the course of the siege several attempts were made by the imperial court to relieve the siege, primarily by river.  In October of 1270 Fan Wen-hu tried to break through the blockade.  He failed, loosing 2000 men and thirty boats.  August of 1271 the Song experienced another failed attempt to relieve the siege, loosing 2000 soldiers.  In September of 1272 two famous commanders with 3000 men broke through the Mongols lines.  Chang Shun, one of the commanders, died and was considered a terrible loss.  Sometime later the other commander with the remainder of his original 3000 troops tried to break out.  This time the Mongols were ready.  To help them see at night the Mongols put straw on the banks of the river and set it on fire to light up the boats.  Many of the troops were captured and the commander was killed.

            Still, Lu Wen-huan would not surrender, and the Mongols could not storm the city without taking heavy casualties without a strong probability of taking the city.  Khubilai realized something had to be done and sent word to his nephew, Abakha, the Il-khan of Persia.  Abakha sent two renowned engineers, Ismail of Hilla and Ala al-Din of Mosul, who built the first counterweight trebuchets in China called hui-hui pao, or Muslim trebuchet.

            The Mongol commanders employed the new siege weapons against Fan-cheng first.  Chroniclers report the siege engines shook heaven and earth when they fired and the projectiles destroyed everything they hit.  The projectiles weighed weigh 150 catties, (approximately 165 lbs. or 75 kg), and had a range greater than anything the Song had within the city so they couldnt counter the attack.  The Mongols launched explosives and who knows what else into the city with their new siege trebuchets.  Fan-cheng could not hold out against such a barrage and fell several days after the weapons were employed.  When Lu Wen-huan received reports regarding the fall of one of the twin cities, he was in dismay but did not give up right away.  The hui-hui pao, or Muslim trebuchets, were moved to other side of the river and placed at the southeast corner of the Xiangyang.  Lu Wen-huan continued to hold out against the continued assaults of the Mongols.  Eventually he was offered the command of the two cities if he was to surrender and defect to the Mongols.  Khubilai Khan encouraged such defections and many Song commanders, seeing Khubilai as the one with the mandate of heaven to be the new emperor of the Yuan Dynasty, defected.  Lu Wen-huan surrendered, ending the long tiresome siege, and the two cities were given to him to govern under the Yuan Dynasty.

            The fall of Xiangyang and Fan-Cheng marked the turning point in the war against the Song Dynasty.  Morale collapsed within the Song imperial court, and the Song army was able to hold out for several more years before the Mongols conquered the rest of China.

 
Cheers

Chris
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