Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

The real Edward I of England

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Emperor Barbarossa View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Jul-2005
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The real Edward I of England
    Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 07:26
Originally posted by Turkic10

In the interest of historical accuracy, it would be nice to hear the heroes of the American Revolution in movies and tv shows speaking with the English accents that they  would have had. It would be a reminder as to where they came from. Of course, Americans would scream blue murder if that happened.
That would be the most historically accurate way to show the real heroes,  but many nationalists wouldn't put up with it.

Back to Top
rangerstew View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 12-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote rangerstew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 09:39
I think I may have mentioned this in another thread, but what do you guys expect from Hollywood, or any other movie maker. They are not in the movie business to accurately portray history. They are in the movie business to make money. If you want accuracy, watch the History Channel.
Back to Top
Constantine XI View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended

Suspended

Joined: 01-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5711
  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 17:28
The History Channel can be just as inaccurate at times. The fact is Hollywood's products get distributed to a massive audience, who then are poisoned by the incorrect garbage they passively consume.
Back to Top
rangerstew View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 12-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote rangerstew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2005 at 09:38

And the mass public isn't poisoned by the crap it is indoctrinated in by the public school systems?

If you want true history, you will really have to dig on your own. There is bias everywhere. Its all America's fault anyway..........

Back to Top
rangerstew View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 12-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote rangerstew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2005 at 09:43

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

Originally posted by Turkic10

In the interest of historical accuracy, it would be nice to hear the heroes of the American Revolution in movies and tv shows speaking with the English accents that they  would have had. It would be a reminder as to where they came from. Of course, Americans would scream blue murder if that happened.
That would be the most historically accurate way to show the real heroes,  but many nationalists wouldn't put up with it.

I dont think that the majority of colonist, especially those from the more rural areas, would have had English accents. You have to realize that most of the colonist had been born and raised in the colonies, away from England. Besides, there were so many colonist from other European nations beside England.

Back to Top
Turkic10 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 01-Jul-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 65
  Quote Turkic10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2005 at 13:49
Originally posted by rangerstew

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

Originally posted by Turkic10

In the interest of historical accuracy, it would be nice to hear the heroes of the American Revolution in movies and tv shows speaking with the English accents that they  would have had. It would be a reminder as to where they came from. Of course, Americans would scream blue murder if that happened.
That would be the most historically accurate way to show the real heroes,  but many nationalists wouldn't put up with it.

I dont think that the majority of colonist, especially those from the more rural areas, would have had English accents. You have to realize that most of the colonist had been born and raised in the colonies, away from England. Besides, there were so many colonist from other European nations beside England.

It would take several generations for the accent to become typically (?) North American. Children learn to speak with accents similar to their parents which would have be English in most cases. There are still remnants of the English/Irish/ Scotish accents in the New England states and east coast Canada. The addition of peoples from many European countries over time resulted in the amalgam accent which is North American. The long term result of black household slaves resulted in the southern accent. You can't escape it, whether you like it or not, but Washington, Jefferson, Franklin and the others had English accents. It  had no affect on what they accomplished.  

Admonish your friends privately, praise them publicly.
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952
  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2005 at 14:12
Originally posted by rangerstew

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

Originally posted by Turkic10

In the interest of historical accuracy, it would be nice to hear the heroes of the American Revolution in movies and tv shows speaking with the English accents that they  would have had. It would be a reminder as to where they came from. Of course, Americans would scream blue murder if that happened.
That would be the most historically accurate way to show the real heroes,  but many nationalists wouldn't put up with it.


 

Actually it's pretty painful on the ears when American actors try to put on a British accent, I'd rather hear Queen Elizabeth I with an American accent than what hollywood passes for a British one. 

 

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

Originally posted by Turkic10

In the interest of historical accuracy, it would be nice to hear the heroes of the American Revolution in movies and tv shows speaking with the English accents that they  would have had. It would be a reminder as to where they came from. Of course, Americans would scream blue murder if that happened.
That would be the most historically accurate way to show the real heroes,  but many nationalists wouldn't put up with it.

I dont think that the majority of colonist, especially those from the more rural areas, would have had English accents. You have to realize that most of the colonist had been born and raised in the colonies, away from England. Besides, there were so many colonist from other European nations beside England.

 

Edison made a lot of phonograph recordings of Americans around the turn of the 19th century (and some British too) it's quite fascinating to listen to them. The British sound more like Americans and the Americans British.

A lot of linguists put forward the theory it's not the Amercans who've changed their accent since the 19th century but the British. IE: The British spoke a Southern like American accent and influenced by Europe changed, America largely isolated from Europe changed a lot less. So if you went back to England during Cromwell's time it would be indestinguishable from the Louisianna today. (This is a horrible thought)



Edited by Paul
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
rangerstew View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 12-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote rangerstew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2005 at 14:24

And since we dont have any recordings of those individuals(Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, etc) speaking, we really can't know what they sounded like.  By the time Edison started recording, things may have changed drastically from the time of the WFI.

I still stick to what I said, for the most part. I will  concede that the founding fathers being more highly educated than most of the colonist would have had a more refined accent.

This would be a great subject for an intense college research paper.

Back to Top
Turkic10 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 01-Jul-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 65
  Quote Turkic10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2005 at 14:54
We would need un-biased robot time machines to do the research. I doubt there are any truly un-biased human beings. If you want to hear a phoney accent there is one affected by some early and some of todays  North American movie and tv actors that we Canadians used to call  the Mid-Atlantic accent. It's sort of but not quite an English accent. Chris Plummer is a prime example .
Admonish your friends privately, praise them publicly.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2005 at 11:59
Does anyone remember that the vote by the Contintntal Congress to establish English as the official USA language passed by just one vote over the use of German? 
As to how the colonials would have sounded, many linguistic authorities have proposed that the original colonists would most likely have sounded much like the daily common speak heard in and about Brooklyn,NY circa 1930-60.(I read numerous treatises about this at university.  I do not remember the sources.Sorry I cannot quote the necessary references to back this up.)Yo fugiddaboutit! As for accents in Braveheart, would not Longshanks and those around him most likely have spoken a Norman tougue.  Normandy was in France.  The Normans were decendants of the Vikings.  This would sound very strange to us. 

The conquerors write the history of the period.  I am sure that Longshanks had his own PR department and spindoctors.

As for Mel Gibson,the Australian influenced spawn of a racist\facist\religious nut of a father(American), shame on him for attempting to do his job as an ententainer. 

England never raped, pillaged and attempted ethnic cleansing of Scotland.  When they could not accomplish this they captured and moved whole clans to northern Ireland. The English have not occupied Irie for 800 years.  The English did not enslave the Scots and Irish and send them to penal colonies around the globe.  No, never, not the English.




Back to Top
Emperor Barbarossa View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Jul-2005
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2005 at 20:35
Yes, the Americans would not have British accents. They would still have similar accents and not modern American accents. England did pillage and rape some of Scotland, that is inevitable, but it was greatly exagerrated in Braveheart. The English never attempted ethnic clensing. They were portrayed as junior Nazis in Braveheart. As for an unrelated topic, Cromwell did plunder Dundee in his invasion.

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 13:14
 Why is this discussion suddenly about the Braveheart, and not about Edward the Longshanks?
Back to Top
Degredado View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Portugal
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 366
  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 12:54

Originally posted by Paul

A lot of linguists put forward the theory it's not the Amercans who've changed their accent since the 19th century but the British. IE: The British spoke a Southern like American accent and influenced by Europe changed, America largely isolated from Europe changed a lot less. So if you went back to England during Cromwell's time it would be indestinguishable from the Louisianna today. (This is a horrible thought)

Pardon me for being off topic, but another linguist said that the English of Shakespeare's day probably sounded more like the Irish.

As for the topic itself, it's nice to know that John Lackland had a grandson worthy of being his father's Great-Grandson (if anyone understands what I just wrote... 

What I'd like to know more about is Edward's conquest of Wales. Why is it that the Welsh have less of a reputation than the Scots? Did Edward's definitive conquest 'wimpify' them in the eyes of the general public, especially when compared with the more dashing, skirt wearing Scots?



Edited by Degredado
Vou votar nas putas. Estou farto de votar nos filhos delas
Back to Top
Emperor Barbarossa View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Jul-2005
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 21:14
First of all, the Scots didn't even have kilts at the time. Besides, kilts rock. One reason why the Welsh have a less reputation is because those little wussies couldn't fight back the English, unlike the Scots. Now onder they are wimplified.

Back to Top
Constantine XI View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended

Suspended

Joined: 01-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5711
  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2005 at 05:11
Well to be more precise the Scottish monarchy especially adopted fuedalism, encastellation and heavy cavalry into their armies, the Welsh did not. Wales was alot smaller and its nobility was more divided than the Scots.
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952
  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2005 at 05:25

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

One reason why the Welsh have a less reputation is because those little wussies couldn't fight back the English, unlike the Scots. Now onder they are wimplified.

Might I suggest you go to a Caernarfon town centre on a saturday night, stand in the middle of a crowded pub and shout "Owen Glydwr was a wooly backed wuss and Wales is proof that evolution can go in reverse."

 

Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
Constantine XI View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended

Suspended

Joined: 01-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5711
  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2005 at 05:56
Exactly, the Welsh put up a very stubborn defence which lasted for 200 years. 200 years is a long time to be cowardly while managing to avoid being conquered, in the end they simply couldn't hold out with a weaker military, poorer technology, and less advanced political system than England. The fact that England was several times the size of Wales had something to do with it as well.
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952
  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2005 at 06:07

This is a bit of a climbdown

Mind you the threat of a drunken pack of Caenarfonites, singing at you, is enough the frighten anyone.

Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
Brian J Checco View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Eli Manning

Joined: 30-Jan-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 925
  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 20:59
The Welsh held out against English conquest for about 800 years, actually folks. The Anglo-Saxons started invading in the 400's, and pushed the Welsh-Britons back to Wales and Cornwall. The Welsh drew up their lines there and refused to capitulate until the death of Llewellyn ap Gruffydd, in 1282. That's 800 years.

They then proceded to get one of their own crowned King of England in 1485. Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond, 7th English King of that name, was a Welshman. His uncle, Jasper Tudor, was 100% Welsh, was one of Edward IV's, and later Richard III's, greatest enemies, and constantly set the Midlands and the Marches aflame with his Welsh brigand army.  Henry VIII was also part Welsh, and by default, his daughter Elizabeth was also part Welsh. Tudor in itself is a Welsh name. The entire Tudor dynasty was Welsh. The Anglican Church was founded by a Welshman. The irony here should speak for itself.

I'm an American, and not at all Welsh, but my name is (Brian means 'rock' in Welsh. Other variant meanings are 'stone' or 'strength'). I've always had a soft spot for the Welsh. Fascinating lot, an ancient and noble warrior culture. As Paul said, go to Caernarvon or Cardiff and tell them how 'soft' they are. And then count your teeth in the morning. I'm sure it will be much less than you had before (which won't be much if you're a Brit. You chaps did start putting flouride in your water by now, right?).

Haha, joking. But give the Welsh their credit. An 800 year insurgency is epic.
Cheers.
Back to Top
King John View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1366
  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 01:55
The only reason they survived 800 years was because they paid tribute to Anglo-Saxon kings for the right to exist. So in essence they survived 800 years because the Anglo-Saxon and later the Anglo-Norman kings allowed them to exist for so long. You are right about the Welshness of the Tudor Dynasty.

Going back to the original question though, Edward I is so named because the numbering of kings started with Norman kings. Before the Norman Conquest kings were known by names like Aethelred 'the Unready' or Alfred 'the Great' or Harold Godwinson.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.145 seconds.