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why the USA are not a democracy?

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  Quote ITAPEVI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: why the USA are not a democracy?
    Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 12:08
Win Bush or Kerry , with larger amount of votes or only majority in the Electoral college, won't be a president chosen democraticamente.  It is explained:  the voters' portion that will vote for won't define for simple majority who will govern the most influential country of the world.  The largest evidence of the election in the United States is that it is not treated of a democracy.  The fundamental beginning of the liberalism  each head a vote  he/she doesn't exist in that there.  In the previous election, a president that had less votes than his/her opponent triumphed Plus than that:  the political parties are not to promote the right of the individuals' citizenship, but they are constituted in filters that only allow that you/they run for office the ones that count with the support of the great economical groups of the pasBasta to say that to participate in the internal elections of the great parties in 50 States of the country, candidate needs disposal many million of dollars, to be present in the State, to do campaign and to have a result that accredits him/it to compete to the presidency.  By chance they are not members of the same traditional elites  of the east or of the west  the ones that are happened in the presidency of the country.  As Millor Fernandes says  it is right that Lincoln, a woodcutter, arrived to be president of the USA, but ever since no other woodcutter arrived minimamente close to occupying that position.
Now, for the first time in the history of the USA, it can be chosen the first senator negroMais than that:  the political parties are not to promote the right of the individuals' citizenship, but they are constituted in filters that only allow that you/they run for office the ones that count with the support of the great economical groups of the country
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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 15:32
Itapevi, tell me how many times other than the year 2000 that the popular vote did not decide the president? Only one other time. The Electoral College is a load of crap, but it usually, as in about 95% of the time, reflects the popular vote. The system should be ended, but if, as you say, the US is not a democracy, then what is it? The voice of the people is usually heard. I think what the US needs to destroy this two-sided party system and get some others. One for moderates, one for liberal elitists, one for liberals, one for conservatives, and one for extreme conservatives, you get the idea. The people do vote democratically for their state representatives. Campaigning is wrong though that politicians need to do whatever their financial backers want them to do.

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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 16:32
The U.S.,and the rest of the Western world for that matter is not a democracy because the minority (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants) rule everyone else.
Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes.

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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 16:36

Originally posted by Winterhaze13

The U.S.,and the rest of the Western world for that matter is not a democracy because the minority (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants) rule everyone else.

Considering that they are usually the MAJORITY in most if not ALL of these countries, mainly US I am talking about, it would make sense that they would be holding alot of the higher parts of the governemtn sheerly because of numbers.



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  Quote Thegeneral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 17:02

We ARE the majority.  And if we weren't, how could we hold so much power. 

And if you were hoping to have a jewish or athiest president or leader, good luck.

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  Quote ITAPEVI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 17:06
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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 18:38
Why the heck did you post that picture? For what purpose does that do for your argument? Is she a white Protestant or something? Is it just me or does anybody else feel the same?

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 19:47

Dont worry, all his posts are really scitzo and make no sense.

Personally the electoral college and the two party system I feel is the least democratic thing a country could have.  How can two near identical parties be any better than one?  Its not.  Washington said this country should hav eno political parties, although I dont think there should be none, i think the more, the merrier.

"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 19:57
Originally posted by Thegeneral

We ARE the majority.  And if we weren't, how could we hold so much power.


Actually under Saddam, the Sunni Arabs, at only 20% of the population of Iraq, controlled the country. Its not unusual to have the minority population as the ruling class, especially in countries that America has secretly conquered. Iraq's current president is a Kurd, so i rest my case.

Originally posted by EmperorBarbarossa

Itapevi, tell me how many times other than the year 2000 that the popular vote did not decide the president?


In 1876, Rutherford Hayes (R) was running against Samuel Tilden (D) in the presidential elections. 3 States had 2 different sets of votes, which is obviously a result of election-rigging. When their electoral votes were tied, they went to congress to hold a vote there. Time after time it was a deadlock, and no one could seem to decide who the next president was. So both sides met up at a very fancy hotel, and decided that Tilden's votes would go to Hayes, as long as he helps out the post-civil war South (at this time, democrats adamantly supported the Southern States). So Hayes responded by pulling the Union troops out of the South, ending post-war reconstruction, which as a result basically left the south in the same socio-economic class separation based on race, as it was before the civil war. This event is known as the Compromise of 1877.

Not too democratic if you ask me. And if you think things in America are radically different today, then i wouldnt want to wake you from your dream. Democracy is only given to the people when it is CONVENIENT for the state to do so. Many instances in history show that when the state has other needs that are more important to them than the people ($$$$), then democracy is suddenly taken away. The Patriot Act passes during the same time we invade Iraq....if you dont see a connection then i dont know what else to say.

 

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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 20:10
Yeah, I have seen some of his posts, some that are closed right now, I agree with Tobodai. As for two parties, I agree with Tobodai. I would rather have over five than have two big ones where if you don't vote for either candidate your vote doesn't really matter at all.

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  Quote ITAPEVI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 21:21
Originally posted by Tobodai

Dont worry, all his posts are really scitzo and make no sense.

Personally the electoral college and the two party system I feel is the least democratic thing a country could have.  How can two near identical parties be any better than one?  Its not.  Washington said this country should hav eno political parties, although I dont think there should be none, i think the more, the merrier.

 I've suffered from depression since I was a teenager and I just would like someone to talk to. I am trying to get on disability right now. I had a hearing and i'm waiting for a response. I have no car and I live in a small town with hardly anything so i'm not able to get to a therapist or doctor. My family doesn't listen to me or understand me and think i'm stupid for trying to get on disability when i should be working. I've tried to work and I just can't. I get very little support and I'm always arguing with my family and most of the time i feel like slitting my wrists and ending this misery! I just would like someone who understands what i'm going through!

 

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2005 at 06:04
The truth is that the US need more parties,more voices.Having only 2 parties for 290.000.000 population is certainly practical but it does not help democracy.
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2005 at 07:09
The U.S.,and the rest of the Western world for that matter is not a democracy because the minority (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants) rule everyone else.


It is my understanding that in most Western countries, White Anglo-Saxons Protestants are not the rulers.
But if by 'Western' you actualy meant North American, then maybe you have a point.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2005 at 07:46

I don't like two-party systems myself. However, since the constitution makes no mention of them - and indeed the founding fathers were anti the whole idea of political parties, it's interesting how they actually come to arise.

There are a couple of reasons. The technical one is the 'first-past-the-post' voting system in single-member constitutencies, a system shared by Britain, which has also suffered from two-party rule. Multi-party systems almost invariably use some form of proportional representation for electing parliaments or congresses. You can't easily do that in a presidential election of course, though you could have a re-run system like Louisiana does for senators (and France does for Presidents).

Possibly more important though, and this also applies to Britain, is that the majority of people who vote do so from habit (when they do vote: around half of Americans don't). They vote the same way every time, twisting the issues to justify their choice, rather than making theit choice based upon the issues - or even on the candidate's qualifications.

As a result parties perpetuate, except in very rare circumstances of social upheaval.

The people who actually vote rationally in elections form a small minority. So how can one argue that a system that provides for the majority of voters (saving them having to think) is undemocratic?

It would surely be elitist and oligarchic to have a system that was preferred by the minority that are looking for a rational political system?

The two-party system hasn't been foisted on people. It's their democratic choice.

(And, incidentally, I do think the primary system helps the situation in the US. I'd like to see something more like it used in the UK.)

 

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2005 at 07:54
The two-party system hasn't been foisted on people. It's their democratic choice.


But don't you think a system that encourages tactival voting would merely further this end?
Some people would vote for alternatives if they felt that there was a viable chance of them getting in to government, but as it is, they instead vote for the lesser of the two evils.
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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2005 at 12:42
Originally posted by ITAPEVI

Originally posted by Tobodai

Dont worry, all his posts are really scitzo and make no sense.

Personally the electoral college and the two party system I feel is the least democratic thing a country could have.  How can two near identical parties be any better than one?  Its not.  Washington said this country should hav eno political parties, although I dont think there should be none, i think the more, the merrier.

 I've suffered from depression since I was a teenager and I just would like someone to talk to. I am trying to get on disability right now. I had a hearing and i'm waiting for a response. I have no car and I live in a small town with hardly anything so i'm not able to get to a therapist or doctor. My family doesn't listen to me or understand me and think i'm stupid for trying to get on disability when i should be working. I've tried to work and I just can't. I get very little support and I'm always arguing with my family and most of the time i feel like slitting my wrists and ending this misery! I just would like someone who understands what i'm going through!

 

Itapevi, I see that you are in depression. I was in depression one and a half year ago and I could get rid of it. I don't know if I can help you, but if you want you can send PMs to me. I'll be glad to listen to you... and please take the thought of suicide out of your mind...



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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2005 at 12:46
Originally posted by ITAPEVI

Originally posted by Tobodai


Dont worry, all his posts are really scitzo and make no sense.


Personally the electoral college and the two party system I feel is the least democratic thing a country could have. How can two near identical parties be any better than one? Its not. Washington said this country should hav eno political parties, although I dont think there should be none, i think the more, the merrier.



I've suffered from depression since I was a teenager and I just would like someone to talk to. I am trying to get on disability right now. I had a hearing and i'm waiting for a response. I have no car and I live in a small town with hardly anything so i'm not able to get to a therapist or doctor. My family doesn't listen to me or understand me and think i'm stupid for trying to get on disability when i should be working. I've tried to work and I just can't. I get very little support and I'm always arguing with my family and most of the time i feel like slitting my wrists and ending this misery! I just would like someone who understands what i'm going through!




There are support forums for people with depression and social anxiety, which commonly go together--on the net. Google it and you will find them.

Good luck with your condition.
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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2005 at 12:52

As for the topic, I think the Anglo-Saxon type of government is a pseudo-democracy. You have to elect your leaders among two main parties, which dominate the national politics. Especially after the end of the Cold War very few parties could present alternative social and political projects. Neo-liberalism dominates the world. You aren't allowed to question capitalism. So peoples elect their leaders according to their personal characteristics.... Also, most important decisions are taken by the multi-national financial capital owners. So the representative liberal democracy is in crisis. And the government  by the "demos" is an illusion...

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2005 at 13:21
I think the Anglo-Saxon type of government is a pseudo-democracy. You have to elect your leaders among two main parties, which dominate the national politics.


Define 'Anglo-saxon type of government'.
British and American systems of government are very different.
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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2005 at 14:22

Originally posted by Cywr

The U.S.,and the rest of the Western world for that matter is not a democracy because the minority (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants) rule everyone else.


It is my understanding that in most Western countries, White Anglo-Saxons Protestants are not the rulers.
But if by 'Western' you actualy meant North American, then maybe you have a point.

Europe is largely the same case. Let's not try to reinforce the Europe-American rivalry. I don't believe in it.

Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes.

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