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Maju
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Topic: Is the majority of westerners uncomfortable with Islam? Posted: 16-Aug-2005 at 14:50 |
Originally posted by Komnenos
I cant wait to watch Hollywoods re-make of I married a Communist, with its slighty revised title, I married a Muslim.
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Actually you can't marry a Muslim without converting to islam yourself.
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Seko
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Posted: 16-Aug-2005 at 15:23 |
I could understand the west's discomfort with Islam. For the church Islam has been anathema for centuries. Many wars were fought between Islam and Christianity. So it is inevitable to already have experienced bias. On the other hand, there exists many deceptions and misinformation about Islam both from non-Islamic and Islamic followers. Without going into a heavy diatribe, I'll just add a some statements for us to add to our perceptions.
-there is no compulsion in religion according to the Quran, and Muslims are permitted to defend themselves against aggressors and murderers.
-Many Prophets and messengers were the first muslims in their time and location.
-God does not forgive those who associate other powers or gods to Him, if they do not repent on time.
-God's decrees do not change.
-Consumption of wine is bad in this world.
Edip Yuksel, an Islamic reformer states: "The Quran strongly rebukes the consumption of intoxicants for believers. This is not an enforced legal prohibition; but left individuals to decide. The reason for this prohibition is obvious: intoxicants, though may provide some social or psychological benefits to the consumer, they impair their judgment and intelligence and causes too many problems for both the individual and the society. The Quran prohibits intoxicants to individuals because of various reasons such as: moral (the designer and creator of your body and mind asks you not to intentionally harm the body lent to you for a lifetime), intellectual (the greatest gift you have is your brain and its power to make good judgment, do not choose to be stupid or stupider than already you are!") and pragmatic (you and your society will suffer grave loss of health, wealth, happiness, and many lives; do not contribute to the production and acceleration of such a destructive boomerang)."
I'm an not totally there on this step. Don't know if I will be.
-There is no abrogation in the Quran.
-Disbelievers choose evil and devils in accordance to God's law established to test us on this planet.
While the Quran states that every event happens in accordance to God's design and permission, the Quran also informs us regarding our freedom to choose our path.
-Some Jews and Christians will go to hell. Some will not.
"First, the Quran calls the followers of Jesus with the word Nazarenes, rather than Christians."
"The critic assumes that surrendering to God is only possible if someone utters an Arabic magic word. Islam is not a proper name, neither it started with Muhammad, nor it ended with Muhammad. Any person, regardless of the name of their religion, who dedicate himself to God alone, believe in the day of judgment and live a righteous life, that person is considered muslim (who surrender themselves to God alone and promote peace). There are many people among Christians and Jews who fit this description."
Things like stoning the adulterer has been practiced in history and in most recent times. It is wrong and is not part of Islam. But was and is a part of practicing moslem communities. There is a difference.
Edited by Seko
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ill_teknique
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Posted: 16-Aug-2005 at 15:54 |
Originally posted by Seko
I could understand the west's discomfort with Islam.
For the church Islam has been anathema for centuries. Many wars were
fought between Islam and Christianity. So it is inevitable to already
have experienced bias. On the other hand, there exists many deceptions
and misinformation about Islam both from non-Islamic and Islamic
followers. Without going into a heavy diatribe, I'll just add a some
statements for us to add to our perceptions.
-there is no compulsion in religion according to the
Quran, and Muslims are permitted to defend themselves against
aggressors and murderers.
-Many Prophets and messengers were the first muslims in their time and location.
-God does not forgive those who associate other powers or gods to Him, if they do not repent on time.
-God's decrees do not change.
-Consumption of wine is bad in this world.
Edip
Yuksel, an Islamic reformer states: "The Quran strongly rebukes
the consumption of intoxicants for believers. This is not an enforced
legal prohibition; but left individuals to decide. The reason for this
prohibition is obvious: intoxicants, though may provide some social or
psychological benefits to the consumer, they impair their judgment and
intelligence and causes too many problems for both the individual and
the society. The Quran prohibits intoxicants to individuals because of
various reasons such as: moral (the designer and creator of your body
and mind asks you not to intentionally harm the body lent to you for a
lifetime), intellectual (the greatest gift you have is your brain and
its power to make good judgment, do not choose to be stupid or stupider
than already you are!") and pragmatic (you and your society will suffer
grave loss of health, wealth, happiness, and many lives; do not
contribute to the production and acceleration of such a destructive
boomerang)."
I'm an not totally there on this step. Don't know if I will be.
-There is no abrogation in the Quran.
-Disbelievers choose evil and devils in accordance to God's law established to test us on this planet.
While the Quran states that every event happens in accordance to God's design and permission, the Quran also informs us regarding our freedom to choose our path.
-Some Jews and Christians will go to hell. Some will not.
"First, the Quran calls the followers of Jesus with the word Nazarenes, rather than Christians."
"The
critic assumes that surrendering to God is only possible if someone
utters an Arabic magic word. Islam is not a proper name, neither it
started with Muhammad, nor it ended with Muhammad. Any person,
regardless of the name of their religion, who dedicate himself to God
alone, believe in the day of judgment and live a righteous life, that
person is considered muslim (who surrender themselves to God alone and
promote peace). There are many people among Christians and Jews who fit
this description."
Things like stoning the adulterer
has been practiced in history and in most recent times. It is wrong and
is not part of Islam. But was and is a part of practicing
moslem communities. There is a difference.
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exactly, also stonings and such are products of the culture/ traditions that had been there before islam
the consumption of pork is also haram but that is because pork is bad
for your health i have read a article on it recently cant find it
anymore.
furthermore, the consumption of liqour is a sin to christians too, but
it is a personal choice of what a muslim does, because the qu'ran
states the freedom of will, people choose what they do on earth and
arent doomed or saved just because they belive and cant just be saved
by confessing sins to a priest, you confess in your prayers but god
already knows what you do and we believe that god ultimately determines
who goes to hell or heavan
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Maju
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Posted: 16-Aug-2005 at 17:04 |
the consumption of liqour is a sin to christians too |
This is not true. Many liquors were created by monastic communities.
Alcohol in form of wine is central to traditional Christian ritual: the
sacrament of communion, practiced by all non-Protestant churches,
implies the ritual consumption of bread and wine, as it's supposed
Jesus did in his last supper and ordered to repeat in the future (in
fact it's the only sacrament, along with baptism present in the
Gospels).
Anyhow, wine and pork aren't my main concerns about Islam. I almost
don't drink and I could well live without pork (I've even been
vegetarian for some time). To me (a non-believer with Pantheistic
tendencies) the most shocking and unnaceptable characteristics of Islam
are the following:
- Misoginia: this is not privative of Islam but it seems that Quran
and Sharia emphasize the submision of women to men and in general
giving a very secondary place to women in society.
- Puritanism: I'm thinking on sex of course .
Again this is not privative of Islam but this religion is also very
emphatic about restriction of sex and dislike for the natural beauty of
our bodies and the pleasure we can get in accordance to Nature.
- Sharia and general intromision of religion in civil affairs.
While some liberal Muslims promote a different approach to Islam, the
normative nature of Muhammed's preaching seems to be very deeply in the
heart of Islam anyhow.
Except for the last aspect, the others can equally be blamed on Christianity. But I already said I'm not Christian but one of the number of infidels...
and proud. I also reject most of Christianity but at least European
Christians have been +/- tamed and nowadays most of them accept to live
inside laicist societies, where their religious values can only account
as personal ones.
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 16-Aug-2005 at 17:13 |
Whoever thinks consumption of liquor is a sin to Christians has to be a Baptist.
Have you ever been to an Italian or Polish Catholic wedding?
Or Irish?
Edited by pikeshot1600
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Seko
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Posted: 16-Aug-2005 at 17:52 |
The Koran delegates two women witnesses compared to one for men. Other than that I would need to research if there are any 'submisive' constraints. The prophet's wives were to be spoken to from behind a veil when vistors entered the prophet's house.
There is no restriction of sex. There is a restriction of immoral acts. Women are to cover their bosoms in public and not to entice men by shaking around, sort of speak.
There is the law from God as per the Koran which adds to societies well being. And there are man made laws. Muhammad's preaching only reflects what he was taught. That is the preaching that should be the main focus. For non-religious issues, he had no special revelations.
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 16-Aug-2005 at 18:35 |
Originally posted by Cywr
Did they have to live in a compound? |
They never mentioned anything like that. From what they tell me they
never had to worry about money while they lived in Saudi Arabia, my dad
was a
manager for some American architectural company in Saudi, which was why
they moved there. But i asked them about the so-called oppression
against Christians in Saudi Arabia, and they said they've never even
heard of Christians being treated different than Muslims during their 5 years of
residence there. Growing up in Lebanon they were dirt poor though, but
thats because the previous generation of Armenians were mostly orphans
and refugees from the Ottoman Empire. From what ive heard, Arab Muslims
got along so well with Armenians in Lebanon that during the Lebanese
Civil War in the 80's, when the Christian factions were fighting the
Muslim factions, the Armenians, as a political force, refused to take
the side of the Christians and decided to stay neutral, with their
reason being that they had nothing against the Arab Muslims. This
prompted the Christian faction to attack the Armenians. Many Armenians
from Lebanon will tell you that they would carry guns to college or to
work because they could be attacked by either Muslim or Christian
factions. The Muslim faction was actually trying to appeal to the
Armenians to not join the war, because at 250,000, the Armenians were a
heavy population in many parts of Lebanon, and they were known for being slightly crazy when they were attacked.
During the civil war the Armenians actually found out about some of the
plans that the Christians were going to carry out against the Muslims.
There are many situations where the Armenians would rent vans and
smuggle the Arab Muslims out of the buildings that the Christians were
about to bomb. I only say this because many people think that a
Christian vs. Muslim civil war means that Christians and Muslims in
that country hate each other, but in actuality many Christians got
along perfectly with their Muslim countrymen, and even went through much trouble to help each other.
Originally posted by Oguzoglu
Lebanon has a big Christian population, so I guess it wouldnt be hard for Christians to live there... |
You're right, i think that nearly half the country's population is
Christian. Also, i believe that there is even a law that says if the
President elect is a Muslim, his V.P. has to be a Christian, and vice
versa. And i think there has to be a certain amount of cabinet members
that have to be Christian and Muslim as well. Even in their politics
they try to keep it balanced.
Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
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morticia
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Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 16:43 |
Are westerners uncomfortable with Islam?
Yes, I certainly am because I don't understand it...just as I am sure they don't understand my beliefs...especially being a female, who has always experienced a freedom and independence which few females, if any, with Islam have. I just can't even begin to IMAGINE living with all the restrictions, fear, etc. just as I am sure they can't IMAGINE living like I do. It's a totally different culture.
Morty
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Mortaza
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Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 17:00 |
fear for what?
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strategos
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Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 18:12 |
Lebanon according to CIA world factbook:
Muslim 59.7% (Shi'a, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri), Christian 39% (Maronite Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Roman Catholic, Protestant), other 1.3% note: seventeen religious sects recognized
Not quite half.
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http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 18:34 |
Originally posted by strategos
Not quite half. |
True, but a much better ratio than most countries, Christian or Muslim.
Thats why one side cant oppress the other even if they wanted to, it
will just spark a civil war. Plus, most of the 250,000 Armenians from
Lebanon have left the country because of the civil war in the 80's.
That would explain why its not quite half right now.
Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
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Spartakus
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Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 19:26 |
The only thing i am uncomfortable with(getting pissed off) is when their women during the heat of the summer continue to hide their head or even having bath with their clothes at sea..... .
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Tobodai
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Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 19:49 |
The irony is the veil wasnt a big thing at all in the days of early Islam. It was more a fashion that may have even come from Christians and caught on when the caliph started making his wives be veiled.
Probably a better deal to be a woman in Islam in 700AD than now.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Shahanshah
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Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 20:09 |
western christians always hated muslims, not only muslims but easterners and non-westerners. look what they did to native americans. westerners were( myabe still are) so racist that they could not even tolerate each other.
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King of Kings, The Great King, King of the world.
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strategos
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Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 21:44 |
Originally posted by Shahanshah
western christians always hated muslims, not only muslims but easterners and non-westerners. look what they did to native americans. westerners were( myabe still are) so racist that they could not even tolerate each other. |
And eastern muslims always hated muslims, not only christians but all westerners including jews. Look what they did to armenians. easterners were (maybe still are) so racist that they could not even tolerate each other.
It can be said about both
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http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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Tobodai
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Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 22:11 |
replace westerners with humaity and youd be right. Racism and genocide is part of the total human experience, and is particularly prevalent when people hold absolutist beliefs,like Abrahamic religions (Christianity and Islam included). I was raised largely in an Asian community in the US and the most racist peopel I have ever met in the US are people of East Asian decent. They hate each other more than they hate any other actually different) group.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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Mortaza
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Posted: 19-Aug-2005 at 02:19 |
Originally posted by strategos
Originally posted by Shahanshah
western christians always hated muslims, not only muslims but easterners and non-westerners. look what they did to native americans. westerners were( myabe still are) so racist that they could not even tolerate each other. |
And eastern muslims always hated muslims, not only christians but all westerners including jews. Look what they did to armenians. easterners were (maybe still are) so racist that they could not even tolerate each other.
It can be said about both
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Well Firstly for muslims, we are not easterner, secondly what happened to armenians have no relation with Islam, but with nationalism and racism is last think we can bear, None of us have pure blood, and for jew, They lived in Turkey without suppression. Find a jew and ask his.
So no, you cannot say this.
By The way, I dont support what Shahanshah said also.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 19-Aug-2005 at 07:28 |
Originally posted by pikeshot1600
Whoever thinks consumption of liquor is a sin to Christians has to be a Baptist.
Have you ever been to an Italian or Polish Catholic wedding?
Or Irish?
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Or Russian, even more so. As far as that is possible
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morticia
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Posted: 19-Aug-2005 at 15:48 |
Mortaza wrote "fear for what"?
Fear for all the restrictions and the lack of women's rights, which I understand are nil in the Islam world. It is a male-dominant society and women have very little say in it. Please correct me if I am wrong!
Morty
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Mortaza
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Posted: 19-Aug-2005 at 16:30 |
uh, If you are talking about Islam world, you are complately right. If you are talking about Islam, It is arguable.
Anyway this is not my question, why are you fearing from Islam? I mean, you dont live in islamic country, and you are not muslim.(So you should not restrict yourself too)
So I dont understand root of your fear?
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