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Surviving Pahlavi Dialect: Awramani

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  Quote Aydin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Surviving Pahlavi Dialect: Awramani
    Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 01:39
sangesar is a little town in semnan, its one of the most ancient tribes, after the revolution they changed its name to mehdishahr.
the tiregan celebration is for the event of "arashe kamangir", his legend is very popular, i think im wrong about the legend part i think it really happened.
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  Quote Hushyar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 03:33

There is also lasgardi in west of semnan they have their own language, which is different with sangsari and also in Semnan itself in until 30 years ago there was a dialect? or Language? which was differnt with persian (at least from grammar)

Aydin:
exactly Ahl-e- haq in kermanshah have the same tradiion , same celebration for the memory of Arash-e-kamangir(Arash the archer)

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 07:18

Here is the source to the "silly tradition" - Karnamak e Ardashir e Papakan

hapter I.
In the records of Ardashir, Founder of the Sassanian Kingdom, son of Papak, it is written as follows: That after the death of Alexander [the Great], inhabitant of Arum, there were in the territory of Iran two hundred and forty princes.

olophon.

Completed with gratification, pleasure, and joy.

May Ardashir, the King of kings, son of Papak, and Shapur, the King of kings, son of Ardashir, and Hormazd, the King of kings, son of Shapur, be immortal-souled!

May the immortal-souled Rustam, son of Mitro-avan, who has written this copy, be so, and more so!

Amen.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/sassanids/karnamak_ardesh ir_papakan1.php

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 09:00

hapter I.
In the records of Ardashir, Founder of the Sassanian Kingdom, son of Papak, it is written as follows: That after the death of Alexander [the Great], inhabitant of Arum, there were in the territory of Iran two hundred and forty princes.

Pahvali:

Pad karnamag i Artaxshir i Papkan idun nibisht estad ke pas az marg i Alaksandar i Hromayig Iran Shahr dusad ud chihil kadag khwaday bud.

Modern Persian:

Dar karnameh-e Ardeshir-e Papakan idun neveshte ast ke pas az marg-e Eskandar-e Rumi dar Iran Shahr devist o chehel kadkhoda bud.

I think Pahlavi is very similar to Dari, "two hundred and forty" in Persian is "devist o chehel" but Afghans say "dusad o chihil"!

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 15:04
My grandmother is from Khonsar, in Isfahan province. Their language is very distinct. Some of the Khonsaris claim that the language they speak is Pahlavi. 
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  Quote Aydin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 22:19
thanks for the info, i can undrestand it better than i can speak it, its an interesting language.
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  Quote Aydin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 22:20
A question: to what group belongs Awramani? North West Iranian or South West Iranian? If the second, then it makes it possible to be the remnant of Sassanid Pahlevi.
Also I doubt that Awramani is also spoken in Iraq.

According to the Kurdistan Cultural herritage institute: Awramani is just spoken in an isolated valley in Iran which remained Zoroastrian untill late and had a large numbers of Zoroastrian priests. As the Sassanid Pahlevi was a language of the priests their language is such.

This claim can only be true if the Awramani belongs to the South Western Iranian language, and shows great similarities with the Sassanid Pahlevi (which I honestly doubt)
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2005 at 07:33

Awramani is North West and it is part of the wider Gorani group which also exists in Iraq, it is not spoken only in a valley, (that info is nonsense), it is the language of Paveh city and it is also spoken in bordering regions of Iraq.  Unless they mean to call the area of Paveh a valley, but there are hundreds there and the Kurds inhabiting them speak Awaramani.

I have a feeling that Awramani is also spoken in Mahabad, I will check.

The Y.A. month name found in the Pahlavi parchment of Awraman (No.3), according to the reading of Cowley, Unvala, and Nyberg, shows that the use of these names, and most probably also of the calendar to which these months belong, goes back as far as the first century BC.11 On the other hand, the existence of two other old Iranian calendars is attested by the Behistun inscription, and proved by deduction from the Avestan texts.

http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/articles/old_iranian_cale ndars1.php

Well, there was certainly an official Pahlavi language spoken in the area.

 

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2005 at 13:53
Aydin, another thing came to mind: the NW & SW branches weren't as separated from each other then as they are today, perhaps mere dialects of the same language, whereas today they are completely diff languages and it is natural for isolated areas to maintain the archaic characteristics of their language.
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  Quote Artaxiad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2005 at 14:32

The name ''Awramani'' seems to be close to ''Armani'' (Armenian). Do you think they have anything to do with us Armenians?

The Armenian language has some words of Persian origin. A lot of them have become extinct and survive in Armenian. Numbers and words like hazar (1000), ashagerd (student), certain words related to the military, like spah, etc. are used in Armenian.



Edited by Artaxiad
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2005 at 14:59
Not to my knowledge, there are two theories for its origin, one is "Ahuramandi" (related to Zaroastrianism) and the other "Hurrian" (pre-Aryan inhabitants), I am inclined to say it is the former because it was an important pre-Islamic religious area and also converted to Islam much later than the surrounding areas.
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  Quote Aydin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2005 at 16:12
Originally posted by Zagros

Awramani is North West and it is part of the wider Gorani group which also exists in Iraq, it is not spoken only in a valley, (that info is nonsense), it is the language of Paveh city and it is also spoken in bordering regions of Iraq.  Unless they mean to call the area of Paveh a valley, but there are hundreds there and the Kurds inhabiting them speak Awaramani.

I have a feeling that Awramani is also spoken in Mahabad, I will check.

The Y.A. month name found in the Pahlavi parchment of Awraman (No.3), according to the reading of Cowley, Unvala, and Nyberg, shows that the use of these names, and most probably also of the calendar to which these months belong, goes back as far as the first century BC.11 On the other hand, the existence of two other old Iranian calendars is attested by the Behistun inscription, and proved by deduction from the Avestan texts.

http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/articles/old_iranian_cale ndars1.php

Well, there was certainly an official Pahlavi language spoken in the area.

 

 

In Mahabad they speak Mokri dialect of Sorani Kurdish.

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  Quote Shahanshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2005 at 03:52
Originally posted by Shahanshah

 some kurdish chauvisits think Ardeshir was a kurd. and think all sassanians were kurds. i will provide you with a link. later on.

okay here are the links, NOW read the labels for the coins in which he or she has given; "kurdish sasani coin"

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56241129@N00/22738505/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56241129@N00/22738520/

similar coin is shown on this website and described as "kurdish"

http://groups.msn.com/kurdishamericanyouth/kurdistan.msnw?ac tion=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=245

Although I am aware that kurds back then probably used sassanid coins, but the figures on the coins are of sassanid kings, who were persians not kurds. Now I am not sure if these labels describe the kings as kurdish or do they just describe the coins in which were found in "Kurdistan" region and were probably used by kurds as well.



Edited by Shahanshah
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2005 at 06:59
Originally posted by Shahanshah

Originally posted by Shahanshah

 some kurdish chauvisits think Ardeshir was a kurd. and think all sassanians were kurds. i will provide you with a link. later on.

okay here are the links, NOW read the labels for the coins in which he or she has given; "kurdish sasani coin"

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56241129@N00/22738505/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56241129@N00/22738520/

similar coin is shown on this website and described as "kurdish"

http://groups.msn.com/kurdishamericanyouth/kurdistan.msnw?ac tion=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=245

Although I am aware that kurds back then probably used sassanid coins, but the figures on the coins are of sassanid kings, who were persians not kurds. Now I am not sure if these labels describe the kings as kurdish or do they just describe the coins in which were found in "Kurdistan" region and were probably used by kurds as well.

My only point was that in the Karnamak (records) of Ardashir it says that he was found among Kurdish Shepherds, you said "it was a silly tradition" when it is a legend which also states he was a descendant of the Hakhamanesh.

And Kurds most certainly used the Sassanid coins of Eronshahr.

No more on this please, it is political and irrelevant to Middle Iranian languages.



Edited by Zagros
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  Quote Aydin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2005 at 12:48

Originally posted by Zagros

Aydin, another thing came to mind: the NW & SW branches weren't as separated from each other then as they are today, perhaps mere dialects of the same language, whereas today they are completely diff languages and it is natural for isolated areas to maintain the archaic characteristics of their language.

well true, but still Pahlavi of Sassanid is closest to Persian (especially to Baxtiari). It is defintely an ancestor of Persian (Farsi of Fars, baxtiari, Larestani, Lori, Kumzari, Boyerahmadi .....SW Iranian) languages, while the Parthian was a little bit different. Still in Armenian are preserved many Parthian Pahlavi words. They are recognizble by SW speakers but still sound a bit different.

But as you said it can be.

 

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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2005 at 17:19
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

hapter I.
In the records of Ardashir, Founder of the Sassanian Kingdom, son of Papak, it is written as follows: That after the death of Alexander [the Great], inhabitant of Arum, there were in the territory of Iran two hundred and forty princes.

Pahvali:

Pad karnamag i Artaxshir i Papkan idun nibisht estad ke pas az marg i Alaksandar i Hromayig Iran Shahr dusad ud chihil kadag khwaday bud.

Modern Persian:

Dar karnameh-e Ardeshir-e Papakan idun neveshte ast ke pas az marg-e Eskandar-e Rumi dar Iran Shahr devist o chehel kadkhoda bud.

I think Pahlavi is very similar to Dari, "two hundred and forty" in Persian is "devist o chehel" but Afghans say "dusad o chihil"!

maybe Persians used to say dosad too, "dosad gofteh cho nim kerdr nist"
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 18:08
Zagros can you speak Hawrammi?Smile
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  Quote Cent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 19:08
"I have a feeling that Awramani is also spoken in Mahabad, I will check."

Sorani is spoken in Mahabad.

You're maybe thinking of Halabja? They speak Hawrami there.

Although it's slowly being replaced by Sorani.
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 06:54
Zagros do you know any Awramani words and their meanings?

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 08:14

Not really, aside from teh ones that are common to Persian and normal Kurdish dialects like gyan/jan, it is spoken in the high mountainous regions around Paveh and it isn't like the Kalhori, bashuri spoken in the Kermanshah plains.  It is practically incomprehensible to any other Iranic speaker without a lot of listening and learning which is not the case with other regional languages.  For example many Kurdish words are exactly the same as Persian except they have dropped consenants.  Cheshm = eye - Kurdish = chem/cha.  So after being taught some simple rules it is pretty easy to understand.

 
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