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Topic ClosedKurdicization of Anatolia

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Kurdicization of Anatolia
    Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 08:48

It can be easily detected in Ottoman, Iranian and Russian documents that Eastern Anatolia has begun to be Kurdicized in late 1650s. Before that there were only Assyrians Armenians  Arab Turkish and some Greek settlements in the region(only Kurds in the region was around Colemerg (now Hakkari). The ottoman policy was Sunnitizing the region against the Iranian Shia peril. In order to that Shia and Alawite Turkmen population of the region was exposed to serious pressures, massacres and exiles. So the region was evicted from Shia elements amd in place of Shia Turkmens Sunnite Kurds were invited to the region by the Ottomans. And then properties and territories of Turkmens were given to Kurds and especially to their feodal lords. These lords(aqas) tortured Turks in the region and led them to go out of the region and sparse towards south or  east and the rest to be assimilated by Kurds. Many of them sent to the Cyprus and the Balkans.  Until 1900s things went on. And that ever-mentioned Armenian holocaust( and according to some others it was just a replacement) broke out. And the villages, towns and cities where Armenians evacuated were captured by Kurds and so Kurdicization and Kurdification of the Eastern Anatolia was almost complete except some Turkish cities which still remained. Now it was out of contol of Ottomans too.

During the events between 1900-1940 Kurds captured the cities Diyarbakir, and Urfa completely and Van, Erzincan  and some other small towns partially.

When the Turkish republic was declared, Turkey was a country which lost 25% of her proper territory  to a 5% population, Kurds.

By time going process did not cease. Kurds were being spread towards cities like  Ardahan Kars Igdir South of Erzurum, Marash, Malatya , Adiyaman and towards some other small towns of the region by 1960 when Kurds stared to go further west. At the same time they produced dramatically.

Today 28% (estimates changing) of Turkish population of Turkey and 40%of its territory is belonging to Kurds and there is no Turkish city that has no Kurdish immigrants. Estimates shows that 48% of Turkish pop. will have consisted of Kurds by 2050 and ethnic Turks will be a minority in their own country. SO THE BIG LIE THAT KURDS TELL ABOUT THAT ANATOLIA IS A 4000- YEAR KURDISH LAND APPEAR What do you think about that?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 08:55

What are you talking about? Kurds have been in that area much longer than Turks. Kurds are the ones who are getting assimiliated by Turks.

Turks are bringing Kurds to the major cities in Turkey, because they want to assimiliate them.

The Genocide against Armenians was commited by the Ottoman Empire, plus Kurdish bandits, not the Kurdish people.

And all those statistics are your own assumptions, give me real data.

 

They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 08:58

"When the Turkish republic was declared, Turkey was a country which lost 25% of her proper territory  to a 5% population, Kurds."

What territories? They are still Turkish. After WW1 the french and brits, promised us a State in Eastern Anatolia, but that was later forgotten when Ataturk intervened.

They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 09:09
Originally posted by Cent

What are you talking about? Kurds have been in that area much longer than Turks. Kurds are the ones who are getting assimiliated by Turks.

If Kurds have been in that area much longer than Turks please can you give me some examples of bridges, cisterns, baths and other buildings built in the region by Kurds. Are there any?. You tell a lie and then believe in that by yourselves too. The proper name of  Kurds appears in 900s.  The first Kurds in Eastern Anatolia are told to be nomads which migrating bewteen  winter lands and summer lands. And everyone interested in Iranology knows well that homeland of Kurds is Zagros mountains. They are in Iran not in Anatolia.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 09:44

Well whatever happened, it happened under Turkish Ottoman rule. It's funny how you are demonizing the existence of Kurds in Anatolia.

Even if true, do you know people use the same arguments against Turks in Anatolia and Iran? You say the real home of Kurds is in Iran, some people say the real home of Turks is in Mongolia.

It is a stupid argument.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 10:06
Originally posted by Tangriberdi

During the events between 1900-1940 Kurds captured the cities Diyarbakir, and Urfa completely and Van, Erzincan  and some other small towns partially.


With Ottoman/Turk support, I assume.

When the Turkish republic was declared, Turkey was a country which lost 25% of her proper territory  to a 5% population, Kurds.

How do you define that? Kurds have never had (at least in recent history) a state of their own... how could Turkey loss territory to Kurds if they didn't even have a state or an army to take them?

By time going process did not cease. Kurds were being spread towards cities like  Ardahan Kars Igdir South of Erzurum, Marash, Malatya , Adiyaman and towards some other small towns of the region by 1960 when Kurds stared to go further west. At the same time they produced dramatically.

So Kurds grow more quickly than Turks... and they don't let themselves Turkicize easily...

You have it easy: set a border near the Euphrates and keep the Kurds in Kurdistan by denying them Turk citizenship and the right to migrate to Turkey. Imperialism may backfire, you know.

Today 28% (estimates changing) of Turkish population of Turkey and 40%of its territory is belonging to Kurds and there is no Turkish city that has no Kurdish immigrants. Estimates shows that 48% of Turkish pop. will have consisted of Kurds by 2050 and ethnic Turks will be a minority in their own country.

Well, it seems that (according to your own reasoning) we should soon be calling Turkey Kurdistan... hummm...

Well it may be that we have to call Germany New Turkey too... times are changing, LOL!

SO THE BIG LIE THAT KURDS TELL ABOUT THAT ANATOLIA IS A 4000- YEAR KURDISH LAND APPEAR What do you think about that?

I think that Kurds are there since before Turks, as Indo-Iranian migrations are earlier than those of Turks, who just came to Anatolia since 1000 CE. Nothing against Turks but really I can't bear imperialist nations weeping that other nations they hold subjugated are growing or demanding their rights. It's like Serbians complaining of Albanians...


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 10:21
"Tangriberdi" - Turks have been in anatolia for how long? 800-1000 years? maybe longer? what about Persians? Armenians? Arabs? Byzantines? Romans? Greeks? they've been here even longer... So the real question should be to ask 'who' are these people, that call themselves 'kurds'; Yes they were a small minority in the ottoman empire.. but you dont honestly think that these
can be the originals.. under dominant ruling countries of the area, those much harsher than the ottomans, and the seljuks, and so on..

   Somethings really depend on what you want to call yourself, if some idiot comes up and says Im begining my own race of 'Tangriberdi's' then let them.. I mean they will be only harmfull to themselves..

   So if these people they want to call themselves 'kurds', then let them. If their comfort in modern countries has gone to their brains and they want to farm some dust cloud in the middle-east let them.. When their only possible source of income runs out (petrol) then we shall see..

If they terrorize, civilians and think they can get away with it.. well; Turks are patient but patience does run out, and Turk is a bred warrior, we'll pick up our swords and enter the middle east. Like your nick translates "Tanri('god')gave - Tanri's gift" to us.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 10:27

"So if these people they want to call themselves 'kurds', then let them"

You speak of us like we were made up... We are indo-europeans from Zagros mountains.

 

 

They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 12:29

Of course you are, no one denies it.

Turks arent totally new in Anatolia. The descendents of the indegenious people consist an impotant part of Anatolian gene pool, so we partly, originally belong to Anatolia.

some Greek settlements in the region

That is funny. Greeks have never reached eastern Anatolia, by settlements. There were no Greeks living beyond Aegean region during the Byzanthine region, except a minor ethnic Greek settlement in Cappadocia and Greek colony of Trebizond. Southeastern Anatolia (Northern Mesopotamia was shared btw Assyrians and Kurds.

If you mean Zeugma, the Roman city, its inhabitants werent Greeks.

Eastern Anatolia was a region where Armenians, Kurds and Turks were living together before the Armenian exiles. Today, Kurds have policies of settling and expanding all over Eastern Anatolia, including once non-Kurdish regions of north of Lake Van so that they can consist the dominant population there.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 13:25

What I don't understand is how can a population without any legal representation that promotes repopulation of certain areas go unopposed in a country like Turkey.  Who organises it? Don't tell me PKK, becuase if it was, the Turkish authorities would not hesitate in stopping these "resettlements".

This sounds like the paranoid nonsense one can read here: www.stormfront.org/forum



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 20:14
In another thread here I read It said that Kurdish claim in Turkey is not valid because it is a 5000 year old claim unlike Palestinians which ir 50 years old. Now here you are saying the reverse. So which one is it
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 21:15

If we talk of the Kurdanization of Eastern Anatolia, we must talk of the Turkanization of the whole of Anatolia..

On many ancient maps of years ago, I really never do see Kurds anywhere, on either ancienct maps or maps 200-1000 years back.. and i have wondered my times why not, unless they migrated sometime sooner to now..



Edited by strategos
http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 01:36
"Miller" dont try to distort what I said pls.. in that thread you were talking about I was talking about the 'kurds', and the possibity of them being the real deal what they claim to be, existed some thousand years ago, as like 'strategos' in all the ancient maps I've look at, they dont exist.

There are clear differences between who are freedom-fighters and who are terrorists by their definition and so to put them into a single category just shows the way some people are trying to cover up support for terrorism.

Palestinians? no we cant say the same thing, that land was in an essence theirs only 50 years ago (not 5000 years ago.. ), but various groups and sects within them we can call terrorists..


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 02:01
By the way, why do Turks call Eastern Turkey "Anatolia"? That name should correspond with the Anatolian peninsula, that is Asia Minor and Eastern Turkey, at least Kurdistan is not there but well in Mesopotamia. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 02:37

Tangriberdi

Sorry this is a scientific discussion ,there is three room that you can discuss there about politics. Here I just discuss about historical facts in your article.


It can be easily detected in Ottoman, Iranian and Russian documents that Eastern Anatolia has begun to be Kurdicized in late 1650s

At least in Arabic and Persian sources that I have access to them presence of kurds in all of eastern Anatolia much before that time is proven,for example:
Foma metsopi (an Armenian historian in beginning of the 15th century)in the wars between Teimur and Qara mahmud many times mentions the kurds and their role in the war .(this book originally was written in middle age Armenian but it was translated to Russian in 1951 and then translated from russian  to Azeri in 1957 and then from Azeri to Persian in 1973)
We know that ancestors of Badr khan known as rulers Of Jazir ruled Butan province from 14th century.
We know that Shadadian a Kurdish tribe in Armenia that were very powerful tribe and also they had a dynasty in Aran(present day republic of Azerbaijan).
We know that Artuqs were considered invincible because they heavily used the Kurdish tribes that were in their territory,(Ibn Asir )
When Shah Ismael knew that Sultan Selim could reach Chaldran, he became angry and asked How he could pass such a long journey from Kurdish lands without any loss and his ministers reminded him that he himself beheaded 19 kurd emirs and thats why they all united with othmans.(refer to Habib-o-seyr Book3 chapter 4 from khund mir grand son of the  Mir Khund famous historian of Timurian and Qaraquyunlu time)
And in the last:
Shrafkhan e Betlisi in 1594 wrote a book which named Sharafname-ye-Betlisi in this book which has two part, in part two he elaborately discusses about history of Kurdish emirates which most of them are in Eastern Anatolia from 13th century until his own time, and their role in Ilkahnid, jalayerid, Qazi Burahan, Teymurid and Qara quyunlu dynasty, in war beween Iran and Othaman and so on
This book is classic and If you dont know it , I dont know how do you dare to discuss about this part of history so bravely.


Before that there were only Assyrians Armenians  Arab Turkish and some Greek settlements in the region(only Kurds in the region was around Colemerg (now Hakkari).

Arab settled between Kurdish tribes, ?(history of Tabari) to spread of Islam between them.Turks only enteredin the end of 11th century .there is no doubt that northern land of present day  Kurdistan  was mainely Armenian (for example majority of cities that start with Ar) It is assumed that Kurds with Saljuqs entered Armenian lands.


The ottoman policy was Sunnitizing the region against the Iranian Shia peril. In order to that Shia and Alawite Turkmen population of the region was exposed to serious pressures, massacres and exiles. So the region was evicted from Shia elements

Yes


Sunnite Kurds were invited to the region by the Ottomans

No This is wrong.Sunni kurds became the major power there, they were not invited and actually they were there.


If Kurds have been in that area much longer than Turks please can you give me some examples of bridges, cisterns, baths and other buildings built in the region by Kurds. Are there any?.

Realy ridiculous reasoning.It is claimed that in 9th and 10th century oghuz tribes lived in a plain between Aral sea and Caspian sea, south of Qipchaqs, ok could you refrain that claim because there is no pyramid or cathedral or theater or museum that was built by oghuz tribes.!!!!



The proper name of  Kurds appears in 900s

Again meaningless, name of kurds is mentioned in Islamic conquests in Paveh and Tuj , Jalula.Name Of kurds is mentioned in peace treaty of Espahbod of Azarbaijan with Ashas e-Kendi.name of kurds is mentioned in Karnamak-e-Ardeshir papakan in 3rd century.for earlier version of these name please refer to this discussion page 1 to 3.

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3503& ;PN=2

 


And everyone interested in Iranology knows well that homeland of Kurds is Zagros mountains.

I am interested in Iranology and know that the so called eastern anaotolia only annexed to Othmans in 16th century.

Conclusion:

In the last you want to say something but you dont know or dont want to say , basically it is Armenian claim, They say that the cities that their names start with Ar are Armenian names like :Arzab, Arzancan, Arzurum, Arcis,..and kurds entered in this area by the help of Saljuqs because Saljuqs wanted to weaken the power of Armenian Barons and military families so they used Kurds as allies and introduced them In Armenian land, Arab nationalists also claim that introduction of Kurds in Syria specially in western Syria (Golan heights or Kurd Daghi) was again took place in time of Saljuqs.(How bad were these Saljuqs)
There is one criticism, what about Ravadi Kurds who lived in Ani in times of Bagratuni Family and later formed the dynasty of Shadadian of Ani?may be kurds at that time were minority and later with help of Saljuqs they start mass migrating towards Armenian lands,All of these are hidden in the Armenian and Byzanthian books and I dont think nobody here knows middle age Armenian and Byzanthian Greek language.

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 02:42

Originally posted by baracuda


 Turks are patient but patience does run out, and Turk is a bred warrior, we'll pick up our swords and enter the middle east. Like your nick translates "Tanri('god')gave - Tanri's gift" to us.

Baracuda

Make us a favour and dont boast too much, !!!!!
And swords are useless against Kurds....
modern weapons don't give you poetic feelings.
look at this sentence

Turk is a bred warrior, we'll pick up our G-3 and MK-3 and F-16s and Leopard Tanks and Cobra helicpters and enter the middle east.

I am sorry but from literary point of view the above sentence gives no sense of championship.

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 02:45

Originally posted by oguzoglu


Today, Kurds have policies of settling and expanding all over Eastern Anatolia, including once non-Kurdish regions of north of Lake Van


I realy dont know what you mean by north of Van lake and in what period and by the true meaning of Kurdsih region, I simply have no knowledge about Turkey in 20th century and late Othman empire,

I know Erzurum was never a predominantly  Kurdish city, but If you read jauber book in 1805 he described in chapter three that in and  around Arzurum he came across many kurds and specially yazidies, and also saw Armenians that were looted by kurds.
If you mean Mush, well just look at sharafnameye betlisi to read about governors of Mush, which was kurd in his time.
About Agri or Aghri there is no doubt It was predominantly an Armenian city but again Armenian say that the residents of there were always were invaded by kurds,
Bayazid or nowadays DoghuBayazit was a Kurdish city in times of Jauber and pasha of that pashalik was hereditary between a Kurdish family.the most famous Kurdish poet Ahmad-e-khani who lived in 17th century , was born and lived in this city.

Of course these are old datas and maybe they are changed in 20th century, I dont know there is any source that could provide the distribution of kurds in 20th century in Turkey because I dont believe in the figures that are available in internet.(They are exaggerated)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 02:46

Strategos

Maps usually show major political states not ethnicities not minor states,and it must be noted that they are drawn to give a overal feeling of that time , if you want to know deeply about a historical perios of a specific region , you must refer to original sources,discussion about kurds have been done in this discusion.
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3503& ;PN=2

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 02:47

Maju:

name of kurdistan is being mentioned in begining of the 12th century but what is real border of this region it is not clear, for a rough consideration please refer to book of "Voyage en Armenie et en Perse" by P.A.Jaubert in Paris I don't know exact date of publication but this books is transactions of jaubert in 1805-1807 in Iran and Othmans.I think you can find it in your local library.For kurds refer to chapter 10.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 03:11

hope this will help

http://www.atlas-of-conflicts.com/areas/armenia-and-karabakh /armenia-monturk.php

16th Century: Partition of Armenian Lands Between Ottoman Turkey and Safavid Iran

Historical Armenian Territory with Heavy Armenian Presence in the 16th Century
Ottoman Empire by 1515
Safavid Empire by 1499
Georgian Feudal States by 1634
Five Principalites of Karabakh, the Last Relict of Armenian Statehood
Ottoman Conquest in the 1st Quarter of the 16th Century
Safavid Conquests in 1500
Georgian Losses to the Ottomans in 1635
Modern Armenia & Karabakh
Ottoman Conquests in the 2nd Quarter of the 16th Century

Safavid Losses in 1535

as you can see there is kurdistan.

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