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baracuda
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Topic: Turkoman In Iraq Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 01:56 |
Originally posted by Miller
Interesting that the people of many countries that receive money and help from the US (like Turkey) seem to actually have hateful words for America. Sanctions seems to be working better
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I know its off topic but what help and what money are you talking about ?(Turkey)
Because as far as I know, Bush liquidated the money that was supposed to be given to Turkey, as Turkey refused US wanting a guarantee that Turkey wont enter North Iraq, as Turkish head of military put it, formation of Kurdistan is reason for war..
I suppose as with all those poeople who love fantasizing about the middle east this all got buried up.. or maybe you're mixing Israel who recieved almost 11 billion? ..
Yes there is HATE in Turkey for the US, because of the US support and 2-sidedness for PKK they actually issued weapons in N.irak, to these poeple and took away weapons from rival groups.. so now people in turkey get blown up with US issued weaponary.. (they didnt collect them back after the war you see.. very convienient)..
Edited by baracuda
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Hushyar
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 04:53 |
Originally posted by Tangriberdi
] Kerkuk was/is/will be a Turkmen city. Kurds try to take it from Turks as they do in Anatolia. Show me any building by Kurds in Kerkuk
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kirkuk was not, is not, and will not be a Turkomen city,It was a kurdish city, It is an Arabic city, It will going to be a mixed Kurdo arab city with a great turkomen minority.
because time will ask for proof and document.
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And In Iraq unlike 'other countries' nothing can be burnt because Iraqies accustomed to keep document from everything even their massacares, even their mass murdurs. They even documented how many kurds or Shiis they killed.So don't worry, nobody can cheat in Iraq
What Kurds did when they captured Kerkuk is firing popukation office in Kerkuk. All documents there was proving that Kerkuk is a Turkmen city.
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Most of documents are keeping safe in Kirkuk and even Baghdad. Baghdad museums wee looted but beureus reamained safe, so don't worry (of course you must worry)because those documents proved that Kirkuk was a kurdish city.
almost all buildings there were built by Arabs and Turks.
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So what about ,Tomb of Ahmad e chor (the blind) , Home of Babans (governers of Shahrezur) And two mosques that is sill in Kurdish part of city again by Babans, and tomb of sheikh reza talebani famous Kurdish poet of this city in 19th century.
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Hushyar
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 04:53 |
Kenaney:
Keep your tongue
You can go to city and see it yourself (if you dare), the city is predominantly Arabic and main language there is Arabic.
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Hushyar
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 04:57 |
Oguzoglu:
Again copy and paste without mentioning the source.
The historical part is approximately true just with a few inaccuracies
Therefore, it is possible to say that Turks started to settle down in Kirkuk after 8352. |
Wrong those Turks in service of Abbasid caliphate were slaves and were in Baghdad.
The most famous member of this dynasty was Muzaffereddin Gokboru who lived between 1154-12329,10. Gokboru was married the famous Islamic hero Selahaddin Eyyubis sister and he ruled for 44 years.
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Salaheddin married with Korboghas sister..(ibn asir) after defeating korbogha and accepting his surrender, and korbogha ruled as a vassal of Ayuubids until Nasir Abbasid chaliphate ended their throne.
most of which have survived in Erbil.
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I was personally in Hewlir,(Erbil) and see none. (ofcourse they may be ruined through all of this times)
After Gokborus reign, The Jalairies, a Mongolian tribe, took the control of the region
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No first it was controlled by Ilkhanids and after them Chubanian another Mongolian government and after them Al-e-Jalayer.
Cihan Shah was the last ruler of the Black Sheep state. He ascended the throne in 1439, and he had a lot of architectural works done.
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Of course not in Kirkuk.And he is not the last after his death in war with Uzun hasan, his son hasan ali mirza ruled western Iran for two years until Uzun hasan defeated him and annexed all of his territory.
The Safavies became a Shii Turkmen State in 1508
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Savafieh was a shiee state but not Turkmen.
Turkish Anatolian culture formed a stronger and a richer structure in Kirkuk after this campaign.
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I think Ottman empire was the main reason of weakening of Turkish presence in Iraq and strengthening the role of Kurdish emirates and Arab sunni tribes in Iraq. After Selim I defeated Shah Ismael in chaldran , he partitioned Kurdistan between Kurdish Emirates and gave them a virtual independence, Sharezur which one part of it was Garmian whose central city is kirkuk, passed to Baban family who ruled there until the start of 19th century.
The last figures are not correct.
About Ibn batuteh, I must go and check my local library ,
About other figures:
Cecil J. Edmonds is another researcher who studied the ethnic structure of the region. This author, whose book entitled Kurds, Turks and Arabs, states that the population of Kirkuk was about 25.000 and most of them were Turkmen in 1922 (21
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this is true numbers,
Edmonds estimated the ethnic composition of Kirkuk as 75,000 Kurds, 35,000 Turks, 10,000 Arabs, 1000 Jews and 600 Chaldo/Assyrians.
For a new statistics: 1957 last statistics based on ethnic composition.
The 1957 census gave the figures as 48.3% Kurds, 28.2% Arabs, 21.2% Turkmans
Of course If nobody want to accept the recent elections.
The reminder is poltical propaganda, some true some exaggerated some wrong.
It means it was Kurdified by illegal methods and cannot be considered a Kurdish city, so if a federal state is to be formed, the city cant be ruled by the Kurds. The Turkmens should be given the right to live in their city, go back and settle there again, because they were massacred and exiled
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1)The turkmens massacared and exiled by Baath regime and at that time Iraq was the main trading partner of Turkey and Turks were completely silent about that issue, 2) Kirkuk can not be kurdified illegally and even a kurd whose parents or himself did not live in this city, enter this city and want to buy the a home, it was reported to Baghdad and they heavily protest the Kirkuk govenrers, dont be sad ,Arabs are realy clever ,they know what are they doing. 3)those who were exiled from this city and could prove that they are the true residents of this city , must come back and they will come back including Kurds and Turkmens. 4)Turkmens did not have a majority in any province or city, If they do have surely they must be given their federal state, but now how they could a turkomen federal state in a city whose population are majority arabs.nonesense.
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Hushyar
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 04:59 |
Originally posted by Baracuda
Turkish head of military put it, formation of Kurdistan is reason for war..
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Kurdistan as federal province exists now and turkey can not do any thing. As an independent country well lets see the future....In mid 80s Turkey even could not tolerate this situatuin and now she is accepting it(whatever Iraqies says We accept,said Ordogan) Head of military......he speaks a lot, don't consider him serious.
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 05:11 |
Kurdistan as federal province exists now and turkey can not do any thing |
Dont be that sure.
Interesting that the people of many countries that receive money and help from the US (like Turkey) seem to actually have hateful words for America. Sanctions seems to be working better |
And some countries' people who are a hated target of the US are begging them to invade their lands...
US doesnt help Turkey now at all, because we didnt let them use our country as a base in the Iraqi invasion. Also, their benefits are against ours, for their project of Great Middle East, Turkey's relationships with US wont be that friendly at all. They dont provide us fund support now, and they want to keep us away from the Kurdish threat in Northern Iraq. Of course our military cannot just stay and watch the what's happenning there, and possibly will be involved in the procedure of forming a federal Iraq.
whatever Iraqies says We accept,said Ordogan |
Erdogan doesnt decide our country's policies, our military does...
Edited by Oguzoglu
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Zagros
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 05:33 |
I think the problem of Turkey is more with the existence of a Kurdistan than the non-existent plight of the Turkmen.
Quote:
Kurdistan as federal province exists now and turkey can not do any thing | | |
Dont be that sure. |
Turkey wouldn't dare destroy its fragile economy and invade (stop dreaming), even if it did, the Iraqi Kurds will be sufficiently armed to bankrupt Turkey in such a foolish and unnecessary venture.
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Hushyar
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 06:04 |
Originally posted by Oguzoglu
Kurdistan as federal province exists now and turkey can not do any thing |
Dont be that sure.
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I am sure, They do nothing.don't worry.
whatever Iraqies says We accept,said Ordogan |
Erdogan doesnt decide our country's policies, our military does...
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Because I have never been in your country whatever you say I will believe even If you say in turkey people have wings and can fly.
So there is military goverment in your country , It mean despostism, it means racism, .....so your condition is not better than Iran , the difference is that we know our condition is bad , but you don't know,
Wake up boys , there is a light in the window....Chris de burg.
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Hushyar
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 06:11 |
Originally posted by Zagros
I think the problem of Turkey is more with the existence of a Kurdistan than the non-existent plight of the Turkmen.
Quote:
Kurdistan as federal province exists now and turkey can not do any thing | | |
Dont be that sure. |
Turkey wouldn't dare destroy its fragile economy and invade (stop dreaming), even if it did, the Iraqi Kurds will be sufficiently armed to bankrupt Turkey in such a foolish and unnecessary venture.
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Turkey will do nothing, she just want to put pressure on Iraqies and Kurds and Americans to be harsh against Gongreh Gal sites in the Qandil mountains or at least let her to have some limited military action there.(maximum two weeks), and it seems that both united states and Iraqi goverment still are not satisfied with Turkey reasons, They still think that they could control the borders,.......
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baracuda
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 06:15 |
Turkey wouldn't dare destroy its fragile economy and invade (stop dreaming), even if it did, the Iraqi Kurds will be sufficiently armed to bankrupt Turkey in such a foolish and unnecessary venture. |
Actually, Turkish economy never has been fragile, it only the fact that money going around in economic markets in Turkey is so little that, with 100 million $ any idiot can cause a so called 'havok' in it and raise or make the Turkish lira fall or go up, but if the Turks decide to enter the market to save the country and not to make money, then the Turkish economy will be rock solid and stable. (Now all that money goes around in international markets, or doesnt enter the economy in any way (Im talking about 70% of the real money)
If people in Turkey unite into some 'cause', then there is absolutely nothing that can stand in their way..
- a good example was the overkill of all known politicians to date, and putting up a 'religious' party to lead the country,
- its the same with supporters of the 'kurdish-cause' at one point the tension was so high, and the public so angry that the PKK decided to slow down and make peace, because it would have meant their extermination to the last flea in Turkey.
If Turkey does decide to enter Iraq, it will do so, with no regret or remorse.
They will exterminate any one with ties to any part of PKK, or any terrorist organization that has been bombing civilians in Turkey it will do it in such a way that no one will ever think about doing anything similar. (p.s. Turkey has an extensive list of such people.)
Then when the so called equilibrium and state of politics and amount of people return to the balance of what they were, and not what it has become of the killings that have been going on.. Arab,kurd,turkoman, it will leave to the forward patrol bases, and eventually out of iraq.
There are of course other scenarios that I can think of...
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Cent
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 06:30 |
baracuda: Turkey will never enter Iraq, why? Then they will be Public enemy number one in the WORLD, the ones who destroyed the future of DEMOCRAIC IRAQ, they'll never get into EU, they'll lose huge amount of money ( They can't even get rid of PKK ), how will they destroy 100 000 kurdish peshmergas in Northern Iraq, And USA will never tolerate such thing, so I'm sorry my friend!
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They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou
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Hushyar
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 06:30 |
Originally posted by Barauda
There are of course other scenarios that I can think of... |
Good work Go on with your scenarios I f one day you became a multi millioner in Hollywood, I hope don't forget your old friends and those who inspire you
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 06:36 |
So there is military goverment in your country , It mean despostism, it means racism, .....so your condition is not better than Iran , the difference is that we know our condition is bad , but you don't know, |
No, not like the regular despot regimes. Military is like a body guard, whenever a sheriah lover wacko (such as Erdogan) tries to turn Turkey into a new Iran, they are there to avoid them. Countries like Belgium woulnt need such regimes, because they dont have inner conflict maker idiots or neighbors hungry of their blood, but Turkey needs because it has neighbors who call him Tork-e Khar and imprisons her women to their houses.
Turkey will never enter Iraq, why? Then they will be Public enemy number one in the WORLD, the ones who destroyed the future of DEMOCRAIC IRAQ, they'll never get into EU, they'll lose huge amount of money ( They can't even get rid of PKK ), how will they destroy 100 000 kurdish peshmergas in Northern Iraq, And USA will never tolerate such thing, so I'm sorry my friend! |
We wont get into EU anyway, so we have nothing to risk. Yes, we got rid of PKK once, a terrorist organization who is worldwidely supported, especially by some of our fellow neighbors. While our army gave about 30.000 shehits against PKK, they killed more than 145.000 militants, and there was no PKK left until suddenly USA became to support Peshmerges and PKK. PKK is their puppet.
Edited by Oguzoglu
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Shahanshah
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 06:38 |
Originally posted by Cent
( They can't even get rid of PKK ), how will they destroy 100 000 kurdish peshmergas in Northern Iraq, And USA will never tolerate such thing, so I'm sorry my friend!
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im sorry Cent, but Turkish army is well trained, well equiped, and 100,000 kurdish peshmergas are no match for them, they can put up a brave fight which im sure they will, but they cant and wont defeat the turkish army. and yes im sure that america and the rest of the region wont tolerate such move from turkey, but iraqi kurds should not gamble on that either.
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King of Kings, The Great King, King of the world.
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Cent
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 06:46 |
Shahanshah: Your right, but i mean they can't get rid of 30 000 PKK, with Ak-47s, so 100 000 peshmergas with tanks and airsupport and other things are much harder to defeat...
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They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 06:51 |
We can, and we did once.
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Zagros
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 08:22 |
More Pan-Turkist (war monger) wet dreams... You want Turkey to invade and cause more deaths? Fine. But if you ever do actually come to our mountains you can rest assured, they will be your grave. And don't forget you have 20 million Kurds in Turkey, I don't know what their opinion will be about Turks killing Kurdish women and children and burning villages, but I am sure it will not be positive.
This thread has turned into a complete joke.
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Mortaza
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 08:35 |
I dont understand why should we kill kurdish childs or women, At past, we helped them against Saddam. We have no problem with kurdish people, our problem is with PKK.
Realy this should be a joke.
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azimuth
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 08:37 |
this thread started about Turkoman in Iraq,
so what about them?!
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Zagros
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 08:39 |
Originally posted by Mortaza
I dont understand why should we kill kurdish childs or women, At past, we helped them against Saddam. We have no problem with kurdish people, our problem is with PKK.
Realy this should be a joke.
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If Turks enter Kurdistan it will be like Serbs in Bosnia.
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