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The Iranian Language

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Poll Question: Does the Iranian language need to be revived?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Iranian Language
    Posted: 20-Aug-2005 at 10:00

Ahhh... ok ok.. Turkish and Persian has no Arabic words.. tamam! -(vay vay vay.. ain't that an Arabic word used by Turkish and Iranians!)

 

I am not sure about Turkish... although so many of the words are originally Arabic...

 

Persian and Arabic, both are from the same origins, Aramaic-(I hope I wrote it right). Therefore, the words are Arabic & Persian. Plus, and over the years we started using words from each other! Therefore learning Arabic without knowing a bit Farsi, or learning Farsi without knowing Arabic is impossible.

 

Come on what's wrong with Arabic, why you hate it so much!

 

It is Sad how some Turks and Iranians try their best to Europeanise their language, using English or French words instead of the original words used by their ancestors, just because it was originally Arabic... Maalesef

 

By the way, Salaam/Selam/Salom isn't only used by Arabs and/or Muslims, many nations would say "peace upon you" as their hello ! I found it a nice word to use, why one would hate using it



Edited by 1001nights
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2005 at 10:03
Could you have written that any smaller?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2005 at 10:08

Originally posted by Zagros

Could you have written that any smaller?

masti baba? (just kidding )

it is so big...

 

I forgot to add that I think Iranian should be revived, and they should use the olde version...

 

teshekur... (not merci )



Edited by 1001nights
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  Quote Cent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2005 at 11:04
"Persian and Arabic, both are from the same origins, Aramaic"

Isn't Persian indo-european, and Arabic a semitic language?

They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2005 at 16:44
That's right.  Arabic, although related to Aramaic, did not originate from Aramaic.  Persian, on the other hand isn't even related to Arabic or Aramaic, but to other Indo-European languages.  Its closest relatives are most of the languages of Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, and Tajikistan.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2005 at 16:48

Actually how about using the real Persian, Seps instead of merci and tashakor?  For most Arabic words there are root Iranian words.

 

Originally posted by 1001nights

Originally posted by Zagros

Could you have written that any smaller?

masti baba? (just kidding )

it is so big...

 

I forgot to add that I think Iranian should be revived, and they should use the olde version...

 

teshekur... (not merci )

Infact, tashakor (or mo'tchaker-am) is a perfect example of a Persianised Arabic word.  The original Arabic is shukran.



Edited by Zagros
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  Quote Shahanshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2005 at 17:29

what most arabs and iranians don't realize is that many arabic words have persian (other iranian related) vocabulary in them, specially many scientific words for example "algebra". because arabs did not have many words for the things ouside of arabia which didn't exist. on the other hand persians have borrowed many arabic vocabulary and also persianized many of them. also arabs have arabized many persian words. therefore it causes alot of confusion.

turks have borrowed many persian and arabic words, but mr. ataturk started saying stop using persian and arabic words. too bad for turks in turkey, because all languages are influenced and enriched by other languages. persian was inriched by arabic and other languages and a bit by turkish. i think we should stop using english and french words because many of them have persian roots anyway.

english in itself is a germanic language but very influenced by latin and greek.

the point is, we should keep our own languages but we shouldn't isolate our language from others so much that our language loses its richness right now.

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  Quote farohar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2005 at 03:09

Firstly 1001nights, I never said I hate Arabic, and neither did anyone else.

Iranian and Arabic are not from the same origins, Iranian is part of the Indo-European language family, and even if its not, it is unlikely Iranian has Semitic origins

Obviously it would be stupid to say that Arabic and Iranian haven't mixed together (wait... have I said this before?)   but now, more than before it seems that everyday Iranian is evolving into a language with less Iranian words, and more foreign words (not just Arabic, but Arabic is prolly the most), i don't know about Iranian literature so I won't comment.

Aramaic script has been used since ancient times to write both Iranian and Arabic, that doesn't mean its the common ancestor of both languages

Salaam means peace, today it means peace be upon you, but I read that it was originally used as a means of notification between strangers, for example, two people see eachother from a distance in the desert, and want the other one to know that they come in peace, ie. please don't kill me!!!  , in Iranian, Rouz-e-gar neek just means, good day to you.



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  Quote Shahanshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2005 at 04:08

oh Zagros, by the way,

again;

kurdish sounds way more arab than persian. the language is more arabized than persian. again after listening to them speak and sing, it sounds very arab. maybe not in iran, but in iraq, syria,  their langauge and accent is very arabic. i dont know about turkey though.

for example. the kurds use "w" alot, but persians dont have "w", we have "v".

i think they language is probably realy arabized and turkicized too.

just take a look at this, i couldn't read anything, maybe its because they dont really have any literature rights in anywhere and can't write their own language, maybe its because of that their writing is so difficult to read, and is not persian-scribt. its turkic script used by ottomans before turkey changed it. (i think), or maybe they just made sh*t up. there are alphabets there that dont exist in farsi nor in arabic. i dont know about turkish, but im betting its turkish alphabet.

i suggest u download the font which is down the site to get the real scripts.

just visit this: http://kurdistanpost.com

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2005 at 07:02

Middle Persian used w a lot instead of v too, "Khwarezm", infact the 'w' after 'kh' is an archaic Iranic feature still apparent in Kurdish languages - seriously, Persian has more Arabic words than any of the main Kurdish languages, you can listen to it all you want, but that is just the accent - if you hear Turkish Kurdish you'll think it sounds Turkish because of the accent.

Also the sound "gy" (which had its own letter in Pahlavi) is still widely used in Kurdish, in Persian it has changed to "J", like jaan, the actual Middle Iranian is gyaan, and that is how Kurds say it.

The language is distinguished by its word contents not by how its accent makes it sound.  Kurdish languages are a little lazy, probably due to its recent nomadic history, for example for 'bebinam' they say 'beenom', for 'baran' they say 'bwaran' which often misses the b sound.

You know, the official Arabic content of Persian is 40%, for about 20% of those (my personal guestimate) there are Persian equivalents. 

If you can present some expert opinion on the relationship between Kurdish and Arabic contrary to what I believe then OK, but it sounds a little premature for someone to state how a language is, based on having listened to it on TV a couple of times and drawing such a conclusion from the use of w instead of v.  I think you'll find that Dari also makes this substitution.

 



Edited by Zagros
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  Quote Tangriberdi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2005 at 07:11
Originally posted by Shahanshah

for example. the kurds use "w" alot, but persians dont have "w", we have "v".

i think they language is probably realy arabized and turkicized too.

Any of the Turkish languages(except the ones influenced by Iranic languages and other foreign languages) has w, infact neither w or v the consonnats v or w in Turkish languages are recent developments. They derive from B

B>V/W

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2005 at 07:21
Yes that P-B-V-W interaction or evolution is apparent in many languages.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2005 at 16:19

Ahhh... ok ok.. Turkish and Persian has no Arabic words.. tamam! -(vay vay vay.. ain't that an Arabic word used by Turkish and Iranians!)

 

Noone claimed that mohtaram baradar, no need to get offensed...

 

Of course we have a big Arabic loaned vocabulary, since Istanbul Turkish was declared the official one. And those words are very useful in our daily life, altough we have alternative Turkish ones for most.

 

It is Sad how some Turks and Iranians try their best to Europeanise their language, using English or French words instead of the original words used by their ancestors, just because it was originally Arabic... Maalesef

 

Com'on mate, we dont, maybe Iranians do, but we dont. We are fine with our foreign loaned vocabulary, unless they occupy a dangerous part of our vocabulary and it effects our grammer.

 

But the original words used by our ancestors were Turkic, so it is normal for us trying to get rid of some foreign vocabyulary to refresh our language.

 

turks have borrowed many persian and arabic words, but mr. ataturk started saying stop using persian and arabic words.

 

Mr. Ataturk did it because Istanbul Turkish of Ottoman period was similar with today's, the language which had to be cleaned from excessive foreign vocabulary was official governmental language, not the people's language. There happened slight changes in the regular Turk's language.

 

Arabic was becoming to effect Turkish grammer, in the late Ottoman period, Turkish was becomming assimilated, even the Ottoman assembly was called "Majles-i Mabusan", totally non-Altaic. It was a shame for Ottoman elites (not Turks) for letting their language dissappear. If he didnt succeed in his revolution, we would be calling "Turkish" with its Arabicized version, like the Iranians still call their language as "Fars"...

 

a bit by turkish

 

Are you sure or do I have to list some mass vocabulary here?

 

  i think we should stop using english and french words because many of them have persian roots anyway.

 

Could you give some examples with Persian origins that you later borrowed from English/French? Is "Otobus" Persian? Or "Talafon"?

 

Any of the Turkish languages(except the ones influenced by Iranic languages and other foreign languages) has w, infact neither w or v the consonnats v or w in Turkish languages are recent developments. They derive from B

Yes, we dont have "f, kh, th, j" either. "J" is from Persian, "f" and "v" from Arabic. But we still dont ave the rest.

BTW, as you know, the Western Turkic spelling of your name is "Tanrverdi", "b" changed to "v", and the "ng" sound dissappeared. But we still have "ng" in local dialects of Central Anatolia.

 

 

 



Edited by Oguzoglu
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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2005 at 16:13
Originally posted by 1001nights

 

Persian and Arabic, both are from the same origins, Aramaic-(I hope I wrote it right). Therefore, the words are Arabic & Persian. Plus, and over the years we started using words from each other! Therefore learning Arabic without knowing a bit Farsi, or learning Farsi without knowing Arabic is impossible.

 

 

where did you get this one

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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2005 at 17:30
Hi Azimuth, good to see u and everybody else. It's good to be back too (althought I don't think you meant to welcome me back > just kidding < ). Regarding the thread you opened a few weeks ago (or is it months now?) I want you to know that I have researched and have taken all the necessary notes of the articles related to that subject and have asked questions from some living sources lol, I even have a written piece which I will add to your thread as soon as possible.
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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2005 at 17:52
Originally posted by 1001nights

Persian and Arabic, both are from the same origins, Aramaic-(I hope I wrote it right).
yes you spelled it right but you didn't use it right

The alpahbet is Aramaic but not the language.
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  Quote HulaguHan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2005 at 19:29

Turks are like Germans. Like German languages are dominated by Latin words, ours is dominated by Parsi and Arabic words.

Because Turks were nomadic warrior people, they did not have cultural background strongly. You can not expect someone to built a library of a tent.

Eventhough we ruled Arabs for centuries, word loans passed from Arabs to Turks. Also many Greek words passed to us too. Don' t worry, there are many many languages that loaned words to us (Greek, French, etc...)

In my opinion, as an Electrical Eng. and computer Sc. still our language is weak w.r.t. to vocabulary. There are several reasons, and these belong to a different topic.

We need the Arabic and Parsi words. BTW, Turkic language is dominated by French words too, especially for ordinary life I would bet, as strong as Parsi and Arabic.

I am sorry, Arabic nationalists are wellcomed if they use Islam as an imperialist tool, if they feel themselves as supreme race when they see Turks using Arabic words. But remember one thing. Freedom is bought with steel. god, Arabic Words passed to Turkish, etc... did not save you from Turkic Invasions.

For instance Half of Mongol words are directly coming from Orkhun Turkish Dialect. Did it save Turks from Mongol Dominance? NO...

Did Latin words in German saved Roma from Odoakr? No...

So what are we discussing?

I always wellcome French, English, Arabic, Persian words coming to Turkish language.

What I totally disagree is, education, worshipping, trading with different languages. Today Turkish education in universities are English hahahahahah, worshipping in arabic, and trading, shop names are in French.

I know Turks have nothing to do with English, French and Arabs...



Edited by HulaguHan
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  Quote Iranban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 12:06
Originally posted by 1001nights

Persian and Arabic, both are from the same origins, Aramaic-(I hope I wrote it right).

 

 What a joke! Are you an Iranian? Cuz this is the most stupid statement i have ever heard. Arabic is a semitic language related to Hebrew and Aramic and Perisan is a Indo-European language related to Kurdish, Lori, Baluchi, Urdo. Persian isnt even closley related to Arabic

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  Quote Iranban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 12:14

Btw, i once came across a site called

ی - > ی  Conventor...

But i can't seem to find it now, have u guys seen it, it's pretty good.

 

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  Quote Rakhsh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 19:33
I think we should get ride of Arabic words Turkish will be more of a problem, I believe people should be bi lingual..... Farsi should be revived... I think we should follow frances example and do whatever it takes to preserve our language.
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