South Albania/Northern Epirus

Recognition?
I hope you understand about what times we are talking about.
Who would you like to recognize who and for what reason?
If you think of it, not even Albania that had been formed a year earlier, only  to collapse and be split between Italy and Hellas, had recognition.
Should we conclude that there was no Albania before the Hellinic -Turkish war, since up untill that time Epirus was to be annexed to Hellas?



Edited by Phallanx

 Pirro Kaoni, Moloset were Illyrian and Cameria-Janina (now is in Greece) were historical albanian lands...

rrofshin camet,arbreshet,arvanitet

You didn't get my point, I mean you do consider the years from 1912 to approx 1925 part of your history and you do recognize the existance of Albania even though the country wasn't recognized as such.
That is quite similar to the Epirotes. They recognize the years from 1912- approx 1925 as their own independant country, Autonomous Epirus even though it wasn't recognized.
Anyway, recognitions doesn't mean much as proven recently in the example of FYROM.
Don't get all worked up about it, no one is making claims of liberating Epirus and no one speaks of it's independance in the near or far future.

AlbanianTriology
Did I read Molossians???
I suggest you read who they were.

Did I hear Chams????
Don't get me started on them, historical

Sorry but you have to read objective sources. Hoxha isn't one of them,

The Arvanites

Were a Hellinic race of people from the area of Epirus, their very name comes from the ancient Hellinic district of Arvonos.
Without getting into the details of 16th-18th cent. I'll only mention the letter of Jacomo Barbarrigo towards the Germans in 1479 where he mentions:

"The Arvanites and the Hellines are nothing more than the same people that hate every foreigner"

and the Venetian Senate in 1471 that declared :

"The major part of our mercenary troops are Hellines and Arvanites Hellines"

I can provide alot more info if you're interested.



Genocide of Chams???
Are you serious, who tells you this BS,  Hoxha???
You are talking WWII when they collaborated with the Italians an then with the Nazi and killed innocent people, what did you expect a thank you.
 Hell yes we kicked there ass outta here, which is the least we could have done.

You obviously don't know all the facts.
The problem here is that you fail to see that the original reconition was never widely accepted not only by Hellas but by anyone.

We know that only 6 months later the country actually collapsed and was once again split up under the concession of the same powers that originally had recognized Albania in the first place and not even a year later these same 'powers' with the The Protocol of Corfu, recognize an autonomous �Northern Epirus�.
We know of a continuous Itialian presence in Vlore to 1918 when its passed into the hands of the Austro-Hungarians, we know of France occupying Korce until 1920, we know that the Paris Peace Conference of 1919 gave Epirus to Hellas...etc.

The obvious mix up here is that you are talking about the first recognition of Albanian Idependance in 1913 which as we see above really wasn't of any value since no one really accept the recognition, otherwise we wouldn't see the continuous occupation.
While I'm talking about the finall recognition in 1921, that was based on the 1913 decisions but actually were 'enforced' and respected.

Actually the issue ended in 1946 in the Pairs Conference after WWII when Hellinic P.M, E.Venizelos tried to get Epirus annexed to Hellas but the Russian Foreign Minister V. Molotof reacted. So Epirus was finally annexed to Albania.
 
Note that just over one year before Hoxha took power
Russia's meddling in this among other issues, can be seen in many records of announcements made by the Hellinic Communist Party (KKE) that were direct orders from mama Russia.

Edited by Phallanx

Heres a question, when I was in Greece I was suprised at how dark featured Albanians were.  They come from north of Greece than how come they look like Guatemalans?  They seemed to like to sell fake flowers to people sitting outside eating.

Originally posted by Tobodai Heres a question, when I was in Greece I was suprised at how dark featured Albanians were.  They come from north of Greece than how come they look like Guatemalans?  They seemed to like to sell fake flowers to people sitting outside eating.

Did you ask them if they were Albanian?
Because here we have all the races, all the tribes. Could be gypsies, could be Pakistanis, could even be Greeks too...

Actually since yesterday all measures, like deportation..etc  are in abeyance. While there is a discrimination towards all immigrants/refugees and especially Albanians,  this isn't due to some racist hatred but more because of fear of the unknown, well against Albanians there are a number of issues, but.....

You must understand that Hellas up to some 10yrs ago didn't have any kind immigrants/refugees or did, but in very small numbers.
So suddenly when this this closed community where everyone knew everyone, saw some 1,5-2.000.000 'invading', taking their jobs, crime rate hitting a record high % and 99.8% being commited by these very immigrants/refugees, simple logic says that some reaction would appear and it did in the form of the descrimination you mention.

I remember that not so long ago I could leave my windows wide open, my key on the door with absolutely no worry, no fear. Literally no one dares to do something similar today. You know that if you attempt it, you're a goner. This among other 'events' has lead to this.

But this is actually no different to what Hellinic, Italian or whatever other immigrants came across when they went to the US, Canada, Germany...etc. the difference is that these countries/communities have had time to adapt and finally accept the immigrants/refugees in their community,(but we can always note exeptions) while here the whole issue is still 'fresh'.

Exaggeration OK, that I can accept, but lie???

Re Yianni,  you live in Hellas, there is no way you haven't noticed these events. When in a population of 10 million Hellines you add 1.5-2 mill. 'foreigners' and see that this approx 13% commits half if not more of the crimes in the country, then something is going on here. Simple logic.

Here's a link :
http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=472345
(unfortunately in Hellinic)
Note that the article clearly states that out of 216 murders 216 were Hellines and 91 were foreigners which means that 1 out of two were foreigners when we've already cleared that they are only the 13%

These are the statistics given by the Ministry of Public Order:


�omicide

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

����	��������	�������� %	���������	�������� %	��������� �� % ��������
1991	204		25		12%
1992	231	13%	34	36%	15%
1993	257	11%	34	0%	13%
1994	244	-5%	34	0%	14%
1995	228	-7%	40	18%	18%
1996	241	6%	62	55%	26%
1997	222	-8%	81	31%	36%
1998	201	-9%	66	-19%	33%
1999	175	-13%	97	47%	55%
2000	214	22%	62	-36%	29%
2001	185	-14%	92	48%	50%
2002	187	1%	91	-1%	49%
2003	189	1%	113	24%	60%
����� ����	214	-0,6%	64	13,4%	30%

Notes:

*The % of Hellinic participation is reduced each year by approx.0.6%
*The participation of Immigrants is increased by approx. 13.4% per year.
* The participation of Immigrants in homicides is steadily increased from 12% in 1991 to 60% in 2003


Rapes.

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

����	��������	�������� %	���������	�������� %	��������� �� % ��������
1991	207		29		14%
1992	216	4%	39	34%	18%
1993	201	-7%	38	-3%	19%
1994	162	-19%	29	-24%	18%
1995	166	2%	25	-14%	15%
1996	118	-29%	34	36%	29%
1997	149	26%	41	21%	28%
1998	124	-17%	52	27%	42%
1999	136	10%	47	-10%	35%
2000	180	32%	66	40%	37%
2001	127	-29%	54	-18%	43%
2002	141	11%	64	19%	45%
2003	121	-14%	97	52%	80%
����� ����	157	-4,4%	47	10,6%	30%

 

Robbery:

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

����	��������	�������� %	���������	�������� %	��������� �� % ��������
1991	543		59		11%
1992	909	67%	139	136%	15%
1993	932	3%	129	-7%	14%
1994	564	-39%	128	-1%	23%
1995	586	4%	168	31%	29%
1996	436	-26%	98	-42%	22%
1997	374	-14%	181	85%	48%
1998	516	38%	326	80%	63%
1999	603	17%	344	6%	57%
2000	616	2%	241	-30%	39%
2001	570	-7%	279	16%	49%
2002	642	13%	310	11%	48%
2003	710	11%	273	-12%	38%
����� ����	615	2,3%	206	13,6%	37%

Possesion of Fire arms:

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

����	��������	�������� %	���������	�������� %	��������� �� % ��������
1998	997		233		23%
1999	1161	16%	155	-33%	13%
2000	1766	52%	232	50%	13%
2001	1900	8%	311	34%	16%
2002	1871	-2%	281	10%	15%
2003	1747	-7%	308	10%	18%
����� ����	1574	11,9%	253	5,7%	16%

 

Smuggling:

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

����	��������	�������� %	���������	�������� %	��������� �� % ��������
1991	139		6		4%
1992	284	104%	9	50%	3%
1993	175	-38%	27	200%	15%
1994	234	34%	15	-44%	6%
1995	189	-19%	45	200%	24%
1996	115	-39%	108	140%	94%
1997	137	19%	112	4%	82%
1998	181	32%	289	158%	160%
1999	168	-7%	174	-40%	104%
2000	186	11%	233	34%	125%
2001	194	4%	212	-9%	109%
2002	226	16%	220	4%	97%
2003	210	-7%	360	64%	171%
����� ����	188	3,5%	139	40,7%	83%

Fraud:

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

����	��������	�������� %	���������	�������� %	��������� �� % ��������
1991	408		14		3%
1992	400	-2%	18	29%	5%
1993	427	7%	15	-17%	4%
1994	390	-9%	16	7%	4%
1995	406	4%	15	-6%	4%
1996	419	3%	32	113%	8%
1997	422	1%	42	31%	10%
1998	314	-26%	41	-2%	13%
1999	364	16%	81	98%	22%
2000	533	46%	59	-27%	11%
2001	530	-1%	62	5%	12%
2002	478	-10%	78	26%	16%
2003	420	-12%	91	17%	22%
����� ����	424	0,2%	43	16,9%	10%

Theft- Break ins

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

����	��������	�������� %	���������	�������� %	��������� �� % ��������
1991	7242
1992	7053	-3%
1993	7273	3%
1994	6989	-4%
1995	7603	9%
1996	5532	-27%
1997	6065	10%
1998	3870	-36%	3139		81%
1999	3983	3%	2929	-7%	74%
2000	4625	16%	2597	-11%	56%
2001	5036	9%	2214	-15%	44%
2002	5210	3%	2527	14%	49%
2003	5507	6%	2447	-3%	44%
����� ����	5845	-1,8%	2642	-4,9%	58%

Forgery:

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

����	��������	�������� %	���������	�������� %	��������� �� % ��������
1991	426		72		17%
1992	468	10%	55	-24%	12%
1993	370	-21%	47	-15%	13%
1994	401	8%	69	47%	17%
1995	260	-35%	78	13%	30%
1996	233	-10%	71	-9%	30%
1997	216	-7%	108	52%	50%
1998	222	3%	996	822%	449%
1999	250	13%	1504	51%	602%
2000	266	6%	1802	20%	677%
2001	401	51%	1668	-7%	416%
2002	532	33%	3240	94%	609%
2003	494	-7%	2787	-14%	564%
����� ����	349	1,2%	961	35,6%	289%

Beggary:

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

����	��������	�������� %	���������	�������� %	��������� �� % ��������
1991	129		19		15%
1992	176	36%	30	58%	17%
1993	416	136%	33	10%	8%
1994	596	43%	72	118%	12%
1995	454	-24%	69	-4%	15%
1996	525	16%	242	251%	46%
1997	799	52%	446	84%	56%
1998	107	-87%	302	-32%	282%
1999	172	61%	365	21%	212%
2000	213	24%	480	32%	225%
2001	208	-2%	637	33%	306%
2002	160	-23%	355	-44%	222%
2003	193	21%	255	-28%	132%
����� ����	319	3,4%	254	24,2%	80%

Stealing literary property (cd's etc.)

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

����	��������	�������� %	���������	�������� %	��������� �� % ��������
1998	102		14		14%
1999	387	279%	152	986%	39%
2000	337	-13%	297	95%	88%
2001	503	49%	518	74%	103%
2002	555	10%	1206	133%	217%
2003	328	-41%	1860	54%	567%
����� ����	369	26,3%	675	165,9%	171%

Here is another table presented by the newspaper Ethnos.

�������	�������	�������	������ ���������	% �������	% ���������
������	2.888	955	1.140	58	42
������������� ������	252	208	227	37	63
��������	229	243	171	36	64
�������	54	26	25	51	49
�������� ��������������	14	29	4	30	70
������������� �� ���������	19	133	69	22	76
������� ��� ��������	26	27	27	32	66
���������	822	213	433	56	44
��������	96	48	68	45	55

Edited by Phallanx