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vulkan02
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Topic: South Albania/Northern Epirus Posted: 06-Aug-2005 at 02:33 |
it might have declared itself autonomous... i can myself make a flag...
take a walk down the park ... plant the flag there and declare that
acre of land autonomous. The question is that how many countries
recognize it being so. That might have been just the Greek minority
with probably a few other orthodox sympathizers.
The Confederate States of America also declared themselves autonomous
at some time... but weren't recognized by any foreign power and that
led them to lose the war.
Edited by vulkan02
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Phallanx
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Posted: 06-Aug-2005 at 07:32 |
Recognition?
I hope you understand about what times we are talking about.
Who would you like to recognize who and for what reason?
If you think of it, not even Albania that had been formed a year
earlier, only to collapse and be split between Italy and Hellas,
had recognition.
Should we conclude that there was no Albania before the Hellinic
-Turkish war, since up untill that time Epirus was to be annexed to
Hellas?
Edited by Phallanx
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Menippos
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Posted: 06-Aug-2005 at 08:18 |
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO
Menippos, about the money thing. I was
just saying is that does the Greek populace know that tax money is
being spent on such things. On top of this, the endless amount of
churches that are being built around Albania simply to replace the old
demolished ones, even if none on the community are Orthodox. |
Again, I said that it has nothing to do with the Greek state or any
tax-payer's money. There is no such thing as nationally funded
undercover hellenisation attempt in Albania. If the church is doing
something like this, then they do it alone. And as they are dogmatic
little bastards most of them, I would not find it surprising it they
were doing it. I am totally against christianisation of any place on
this earth as well as the universe and all parallel ones too,
especially with ways like that. The same goes for hellenisation. We
have enough nationalistic pigs on earth who try to obtain other
peoples' lands, but Greece is not one of them. We have enough problems
as we are and we do not need more.
And with the influx of Albanian workforce in Greece, in a few years we
will become sister countries with Albania anyway, so what's the use?
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 06-Aug-2005 at 11:10 |
Pirro Kaoni, Moloset were Illyrian and Cameria-Janina (now is in Greece) were historical albanian lands...
rrofshin camet,arbreshet,arvanitet
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vulkan02
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Posted: 06-Aug-2005 at 12:21 |
Originally posted by Phallanx
Recognition?
I hope you understand about what times we are talking about.
Who would you like to recognize who and for what reason?
If you think of it, not even Albania that had been formed a year
earlier, only to collapse and be split between Italy and Hellas,
had recognition.
Should we conclude that there was no Albania before the Hellinic
-Turkish war, since up untill that time Epirus was to be annexed to
Hellas?
|
it still does not matter... the point is that the great powers created
and recognized the state of Albania... Norther Epirus was never
recognized by any great power government so even though it might have
split it was an illegitimate government in the eyes of the world.
Sure you might conclude there was no Albania but there was Albanians
living in the area. Just like there was no Greece before 1820, however
there was Greeks living in that area.
Some separatist Kurds have created their country where they live and
named it Kurdistan but how many other foreign countries recoginze them
as a legitimate nation?? None.
Edited by vulkan02
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Phallanx
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Posted: 06-Aug-2005 at 12:52 |
You didn't get my point, I mean you do consider the years from 1912 to
approx 1925 part of your history and you do recognize the existance of
Albania even though the country wasn't recognized as such.
That is quite similar to the Epirotes. They recognize the years from
1912- approx 1925 as their own independant country, Autonomous Epirus
even though it wasn't recognized.
Anyway, recognitions doesn't mean much as proven recently in the example of FYROM.
Don't get all worked up about it, no one is making claims of liberating
Epirus and no one speaks of it's independance in the near or far
future.
AlbanianTriology
Did I read Molossians???
I suggest you read who they were.
Did I hear Chams????
Don't get me started on them, historical
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 06-Aug-2005 at 13:16 |
In Greece XIX , were after 50% albanians (arbresh, arvanitet) it si fact, you must read little your history
and you know genocid for Chams
Edited by AlbanianTriology
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Phallanx
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Posted: 06-Aug-2005 at 14:20 |
Sorry but you have to read objective sources. Hoxha isn't one of them,
The Arvanites
Were a Hellinic race of people from the area of Epirus, their very name comes from the ancient Hellinic district of Arvonos.
Without getting into the details of 16th-18th cent. I'll only mention
the letter of Jacomo Barbarrigo towards the Germans in 1479 where he
mentions:
"The Arvanites and the Hellines are nothing more than the same people that hate every foreigner"
and the Venetian Senate in 1471 that declared :
"The major part of our mercenary troops are Hellines and Arvanites Hellines"
I can provide alot more info if you're interested.
Genocide of Chams???
Are you serious, who tells you this BS, Hoxha???
You are talking WWII when they collaborated with the Italians an then
with the Nazi and killed innocent people, what did you expect a thank
you.
Hell yes we kicked there ass outta here, which is the least we could have done.
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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vulkan02
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Posted: 06-Aug-2005 at 18:06 |
Originally posted by Phallanx
You didn't get my point, I mean you do consider the years from 1912 to
approx 1925 part of your history and you do recognize the existance of
Albania even though the country wasn't recognized as such.
That is quite similar to the Epirotes. They recognize the years from
1912- approx 1925 as their own independant country, Autonomous Epirus
even though it wasn't recognized.
Anyway, recognitions doesn't mean much as proven recently in the example of FYROM.
Don't get all worked up about it, no one is making claims of liberating
Epirus and no one speaks of it's independance in the near or far
future.
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Im not getting worked up at all i know this will never happen because
no Albanians would support such move in the south and in the north.
Actually Albanians in the south are better off today because they are
represented better in the government than their counterparts in the
north so their interests are more of a priority.
Well no Albania was recognized as a legitimate, independent
country in July 1913 by the Great Powers. I don't really care if Greece
didn't recognize
it until later on just like Macedonia doesn't care at the present time because US recognizes it as simply Macedonia.
In July 1913, the Great Powers opted to recognize an
independent, neutral Albanian state ruled by a constitutional monarchy
and under the protection of the Great Powers. The August 1913 Treaty of
Bucharest established that independent Albania was a country with
borders that gave the new state about 28,000 square kilometers of
territory and a population of 800,000. Montenegro, whose tribesmen had
resorted to terror, mass murder, and forced conversion in territories
it coveted, had to surrender Shkodr. Serbia reluctantly succumbed to
an ultimatum from Austria-Hungary, Germany, and Italy to withdraw from
northern Albania. The treaty, however, left large areas with majority
Albanian populations, notably Kosovo and western Macedonia, outside the
new state and failed to solve the region's nationality problems.
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Phallanx
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Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 15:15 |
You obviously don't know all the facts.
The problem here is that you fail to see that the original reconition
was never widely accepted not only by Hellas but by anyone.
We know that only 6 months later the country actually collapsed and was
once again split up under the concession of the same powers that
originally had recognized Albania in the first place and not even a
year later these same 'powers' with the The Protocol of Corfu,
recognize an autonomous Northern Epirus.
We know of a continuous Itialian presence in Vlore to 1918 when its
passed into the hands of the Austro-Hungarians, we know of France
occupying Korce until 1920, we know that the Paris Peace Conference of
1919 gave Epirus to Hellas...etc.
The obvious mix up here is that you are talking about the first
recognition of Albanian Idependance in 1913 which as we see above
really wasn't of any value since no one really accept the recognition,
otherwise we wouldn't see the continuous occupation.
While I'm talking about the finall recognition in 1921, that was based
on the 1913 decisions but actually were 'enforced' and respected.
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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vulkan02
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Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 15:44 |
well in 1913 was the first recongnition by the great powers as the
writing suggests ... and like you say in 1921 Northern Epirus was
recognized as part of Albania... case closed.
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Phallanx
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Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 23:05 |
Actually the issue ended in 1946 in the Pairs Conference after WWII
when Hellinic P.M, E.Venizelos tried to get Epirus annexed to Hellas
but the Russian Foreign Minister V. Molotof reacted. So Epirus was
finally annexed to Albania.
Note that just over one year before Hoxha took power
Russia's meddling in this among other issues, can be seen in many
records of announcements made by the Hellinic Communist Party (KKE)
that were direct orders from mama Russia.
Edited by Phallanx
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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vulkan02
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Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 10:14 |
actually the issue is still being resolved... on august 4, 2004 a
member of a history forum brought up this issue and another Greek
member put up the independence of Northern Epirus in question .
It is still not known wether Norther Epirus is part of Albania or part
of Greece, however one thing is for certain.... this argument will
never die!
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Tobodai
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Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 19:51 |
Heres a question, when I was in Greece I was suprised at how dark featured Albanians were. They come from north of Greece than how come they look like Guatemalans? They seemed to like to sell fake flowers to people sitting outside eating.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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vulkan02
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Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 21:03 |
maybe they were gypsies ... from what ive heard in Albania from some
people who had immigrated to Greece is that Greeks are of darker skin
than anyone else in the Balkans.
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Menippos
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Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 21:21 |
Originally posted by Tobodai
Heres a question, when I was in Greece I was suprised at
how dark featured Albanians were. They come from north of Greece
than how come they look like Guatemalans? They seemed to like to
sell fake flowers to people sitting outside eating. |
Did you ask them if they were Albanian?
Because here we have all the races, all the tribes. Could be gypsies, could be Pakistanis, could even be Greeks too...
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Tobodai
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Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 23:04 |
haha no I can tell a gypsie pretty easily, especially how they talk. And I heard Greece doesnt allow any legal immigration anymore, its mostly Albanian refugees who are really discriminated against. Outside my hotel there was a grafffitti that originally said F!ck USA but then USA was crossed out and Albania written over it.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Phallanx
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 04:49 |
Actually since yesterday all measures, like deportation..etc are
in abeyance. While there is a discrimination towards all
immigrants/refugees and especially Albanians, this isn't due to
some racist hatred but more because of fear of the unknown, well
against Albanians there are a number of issues, but.....
You must understand that Hellas up to some 10yrs ago didn't have any kind immigrants/refugees or did, but in very small numbers.
So suddenly when this this closed community where everyone knew
everyone, saw some 1,5-2.000.000 'invading', taking their jobs, crime
rate hitting a record high % and 99.8% being commited by these very
immigrants/refugees, simple logic says that some reaction would appear
and it did in the form of the descrimination you mention.
I remember that not so long ago I could leave my windows wide open, my
key on the door with absolutely no worry, no fear. Literally no one
dares to do something similar today. You know that if you attempt it,
you're a goner. This among other 'events' has lead to this.
But this is actually no different to what Hellinic, Italian or whatever
other immigrants came across when they went to the US, Canada,
Germany...etc. the difference is that these countries/communities have
had time to adapt and finally accept the immigrants/refugees in their
community,(but we can always note exeptions) while here the whole issue
is still 'fresh'.
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Yiannis
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 07:32 |
Originally posted by Phallanx
, crime rate hitting a record high % and 99.8% being commited by these very immigrants/refugees, . |
While I don't necessarily disagree with the "shock" of the Greek society with the rapid increase of legal/illegal immigrants, the figures presented above are a plantant lie!
All statistics show no significant increase of crime rate, due to the immigrants and that the vast majority of the crimes are still being commited by Greek citizens.
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Phallanx
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 08:46 |
Exaggeration OK, that I can accept, but lie???
Re Yianni, you live in Hellas, there is no way you haven't
noticed these events. When in a population of 10 million Hellines you
add 1.5-2 mill. 'foreigners' and see that this approx 13% commits
half if not more of the crimes in the country, then something is going
on here. Simple logic.
Here's a link :
http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=472345
(unfortunately in Hellinic)
Note that the article clearly states that out of 216 murders 216 were
Hellines and 91 were foreigners which means that 1 out of two were
foreigners when we've already cleared that they are only the 13%
These are the statistics given by the Ministry of Public Order:
omicide
Year Natives Change %
Immigrants Change% Immigrants as Natives
|
|
% |
|
% |
% |
1991 |
204 |
|
25 |
|
12% |
1992 |
231 |
13% |
34 |
36% |
15% |
1993 |
257 |
11% |
34 |
0% |
13% |
1994 |
244 |
-5% |
34 |
0% |
14% |
1995 |
228 |
-7% |
40 |
18% |
18% |
1996 |
241 |
6% |
62 |
55% |
26% |
1997 |
222 |
-8% |
81 |
31% |
36% |
1998 |
201 |
-9% |
66 |
-19% |
33% |
1999 |
175 |
-13% |
97 |
47% |
55% |
2000 |
214 |
22% |
62 |
-36% |
29% |
2001 |
185 |
-14% |
92 |
48% |
50% |
2002 |
187 |
1% |
91 |
-1% |
49% |
2003 |
189 |
1% |
113 |
24% |
60% |
|
214 |
-0,6% |
64 |
13,4% |
30% |
Notes:
*The % of Hellinic participation is reduced each year by approx.0.6%
*The participation of Immigrants is increased by approx. 13.4% per year.
* The participation of Immigrants in homicides is steadily increased from 12% in 1991 to 60% in 2003
Rapes.
Year Natives Change %
Immigrants Change% Immigrants as Natives
|
|
% |
|
% |
% |
1991 |
207 |
|
29 |
|
14% |
1992 |
216 |
4% |
39 |
34% |
18% |
1993 |
201 |
-7% |
38 |
-3% |
19% |
1994 |
162 |
-19% |
29 |
-24% |
18% |
1995 |
166 |
2% |
25 |
-14% |
15% |
1996 |
118 |
-29% |
34 |
36% |
29% |
1997 |
149 |
26% |
41 |
21% |
28% |
1998 |
124 |
-17% |
52 |
27% |
42% |
1999 |
136 |
10% |
47 |
-10% |
35% |
2000 |
180 |
32% |
66 |
40% |
37% |
2001 |
127 |
-29% |
54 |
-18% |
43% |
2002 |
141 |
11% |
64 |
19% |
45% |
2003 |
121 |
-14% |
97 |
52% |
80% |
|
157 |
-4,4% |
47 |
10,6% |
30% |
Robbery:
Year Natives Change %
Immigrants Change% Immigrants as Natives
|
|
% |
|
% |
% |
1991 |
543 |
|
59 |
|
11% |
1992 |
909 |
67% |
139 |
136% |
15% |
1993 |
932 |
3% |
129 |
-7% |
14% |
1994 |
564 |
-39% |
128 |
-1% |
23% |
1995 |
586 |
4% |
168 |
31% |
29% |
1996 |
436 |
-26% |
98 |
-42% |
22% |
1997 |
374 |
-14% |
181 |
85% |
48% |
1998 |
516 |
38% |
326 |
80% |
63% |
1999 |
603 |
17% |
344 |
6% |
57% |
2000 |
616 |
2% |
241 |
-30% |
39% |
2001 |
570 |
-7% |
279 |
16% |
49% |
2002 |
642 |
13% |
310 |
11% |
48% |
2003 |
710 |
11% |
273 |
-12% |
38% |
|
615 |
2,3% |
206 |
13,6% |
37% |
Possesion of Fire arms:
Year Natives Change %
Immigrants Change% Immigrants as Natives
|
|
% |
|
% |
% |
1998 |
997 |
|
233 |
|
23% |
1999 |
1161 |
16% |
155 |
-33% |
13% |
2000 |
1766 |
52% |
232 |
50% |
13% |
2001 |
1900 |
8% |
311 |
34% |
16% |
2002 |
1871 |
-2% |
281 |
10% |
15% |
2003 |
1747 |
-7% |
308 |
10% |
18% |
|
1574 |
11,9% |
253 |
5,7% |
16% |
Smuggling:
Year Natives Change %
Immigrants Change% Immigrants as Natives
|
|
% |
|
% |
% |
1991 |
139 |
|
6 |
|
4% |
1992 |
284 |
104% |
9 |
50% |
3% |
1993 |
175 |
-38% |
27 |
200% |
15% |
1994 |
234 |
34% |
15 |
-44% |
6% |
1995 |
189 |
-19% |
45 |
200% |
24% |
1996 |
115 |
-39% |
108 |
140% |
94% |
1997 |
137 |
19% |
112 |
4% |
82% |
1998 |
181 |
32% |
289 |
158% |
160% |
1999 |
168 |
-7% |
174 |
-40% |
104% |
2000 |
186 |
11% |
233 |
34% |
125% |
2001 |
194 |
4% |
212 |
-9% |
109% |
2002 |
226 |
16% |
220 |
4% |
97% |
2003 |
210 |
-7% |
360 |
64% |
171% |
|
188 |
3,5% |
139 |
40,7% |
83% |
Fraud:
Year Natives Change %
Immigrants Change% Immigrants as Natives
|
|
% |
|
% |
% |
1991 |
408 |
|
14 |
|
3% |
1992 |
400 |
-2% |
18 |
29% |
5% |
1993 |
427 |
7% |
15 |
-17% |
4% |
1994 |
390 |
-9% |
16 |
7% |
4% |
1995 |
406 |
4% |
15 |
-6% |
4% |
1996 |
419 |
3% |
32 |
113% |
8% |
1997 |
422 |
1% |
42 |
31% |
10% |
1998 |
314 |
-26% |
41 |
-2% |
13% |
1999 |
364 |
16% |
81 |
98% |
22% |
2000 |
533 |
46% |
59 |
-27% |
11% |
2001 |
530 |
-1% |
62 |
5% |
12% |
2002 |
478 |
-10% |
78 |
26% |
16% |
2003 |
420 |
-12% |
91 |
17% |
22% |
|
424 |
0,2% |
43 |
16,9% |
10% |
Theft- Break ins
Year Natives Change %
Immigrants Change% Immigrants as Natives
|
|
% |
|
% |
% |
1991 |
7242 |
|
|
|
|
1992 |
7053 |
-3% |
|
|
|
1993 |
7273 |
3% |
|
|
|
1994 |
6989 |
-4% |
|
|
|
1995 |
7603 |
9% |
|
|
|
1996 |
5532 |
-27% |
|
|
|
1997 |
6065 |
10% |
|
|
|
1998 |
3870 |
-36% |
3139 |
|
81% |
1999 |
3983 |
3% |
2929 |
-7% |
74% |
2000 |
4625 |
16% |
2597 |
-11% |
56% |
2001 |
5036 |
9% |
2214 |
-15% |
44% |
2002 |
5210 |
3% |
2527 |
14% |
49% |
2003 |
5507 |
6% |
2447 |
-3% |
44% |
|
5845 |
-1,8% |
2642 |
-4,9% |
58% |
Forgery:
Year Natives Change %
Immigrants Change% Immigrants as Natives
|
|
% |
|
% |
% |
1991 |
426 |
|
72 |
|
17% |
1992 |
468 |
10% |
55 |
-24% |
12% |
1993 |
370 |
-21% |
47 |
-15% |
13% |
1994 |
401 |
8% |
69 |
47% |
17% |
1995 |
260 |
-35% |
78 |
13% |
30% |
1996 |
233 |
-10% |
71 |
-9% |
30% |
1997 |
216 |
-7% |
108 |
52% |
50% |
1998 |
222 |
3% |
996 |
822% |
449% |
1999 |
250 |
13% |
1504 |
51% |
602% |
2000 |
266 |
6% |
1802 |
20% |
677% |
2001 |
401 |
51% |
1668 |
-7% |
416% |
2002 |
532 |
33% |
3240 |
94% |
609% |
2003 |
494 |
-7% |
2787 |
-14% |
564% |
|
349 |
1,2% |
961 |
35,6% |
289% |
Beggary:
Year Natives Change %
Immigrants Change% Immigrants as Natives
|
|
% |
|
% |
% |
1991 |
129 |
|
19 |
|
15% |
1992 |
176 |
36% |
30 |
58% |
17% |
1993 |
416 |
136% |
33 |
10% |
8% |
1994 |
596 |
43% |
72 |
118% |
12% |
1995 |
454 |
-24% |
69 |
-4% |
15% |
1996 |
525 |
16% |
242 |
251% |
46% |
1997 |
799 |
52% |
446 |
84% |
56% |
1998 |
107 |
-87% |
302 |
-32% |
282% |
1999 |
172 |
61% |
365 |
21% |
212% |
2000 |
213 |
24% |
480 |
32% |
225% |
2001 |
208 |
-2% |
637 |
33% |
306% |
2002 |
160 |
-23% |
355 |
-44% |
222% |
2003 |
193 |
21% |
255 |
-28% |
132% |
|
319 |
3,4% |
254 |
24,2% |
80% |
Stealing literary property (cd's etc.)
Year Natives Change %
Immigrants Change% Immigrants as Natives
|
|
% |
|
% |
% |
1998 |
102 |
|
14 |
|
14% |
1999 |
387 |
279% |
152 |
986% |
39% |
2000 |
337 |
-13% |
297 |
95% |
88% |
2001 |
503 |
49% |
518 |
74% |
103% |
2002 |
555 |
10% |
1206 |
133% |
217% |
2003 |
328 |
-41% |
1860 |
54% |
567% |
|
369 |
26,3% |
675 |
165,9% |
171% |
Here is another table presented by the newspaper Ethnos.
|
|
|
|
%
|
%
|
|
2.888 |
955 |
1.140 |
58 |
42 |
|
252 |
208 |
227 |
37 |
63 |
|
229 |
243 |
171 |
36 |
64 |
|
54 |
26 |
25 |
51 |
49 |
|
14 |
29 |
4 |
30 |
70 |
|
19 |
133 |
69 |
22 |
76 |
|
26 |
27 |
27 |
32 |
66 |
|
822 |
213 |
433 |
56 |
44 |
|
96 |
48 |
68 |
45 |
55 |
Edited by Phallanx
|
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
|
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