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Paucity of Byzantine sources - a Latin conspiracy?

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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Paucity of Byzantine sources - a Latin conspiracy?
    Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 22:22

Originally posted by Belisarius

The question is not whether the Byzantines could expand, but what form it would take if it survived to the present.

Well, in that thread I was trying to steer the discussion towards Byzantium's survival into the modern era.  As you can see I started by posting some ideas as to what the Byzantine army might have looked like and what it might have been composed of in the 16th and 17th centuries.  Also, I think for Byzantium's survival, it would have to have expanded from its 15th century form in order to survive; in other words, reconquering Anatolia and the Balkans.

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2005 at 12:54
The question is not whether the Byzantines could expand, but what form it would take if it survived to the present.

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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2005 at 12:45

Originally posted by Belisarius

The Byzantines were certainly capable of surviving to the present day, had it not had so many enemies. Perhaps not as an imperial state, but it could have. A Byzantine Republic in modern Greece and Turkey could be the result.

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3678& ;KW=expands

Sorry about the shameless plug!

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 15:34
There was nothing 'Holy' or  'Roman' about the Holy Roman Empire. It is doubtful that this confederation should even be considered an empire.

The Byzantines were certainly capable of surviving to the present day, had it not had so many enemies. Perhaps not as an imperial state, but it could have. A Byzantine Republic in modern Greece and Turkey could be the result.
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 15:13
 Im sure more than a few armies would object to that expedition  fighting for sand.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 15:12

Heraclius:

Byzantium WAS the worthy successor to Rome.....Far more than the Holy "Roman" Empire.

The empire lasted for a thousand years; longer by far than Rome itself.

Every organism and instrumentality has its life span.  I don't think any more could have been expected of the eastern Empire.

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 15:04
Yes, I think that the worst disaster that befell Byzantium was it having such enviable lands. After all, who would really want to invade the heart of Arabia, or the Sahara?
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 14:55

 In part its their determination however misguided it was, to preserve something of the old empire that makes Byzantium so different, interesting and ultimately unique among empires. IMO

 What other empire could of withstood the pressure the empire was under for so long? what other one could of kept its unique identity no matter what happened, even though the rest of europe had gone back to the chaos that ruled it pre-roman empire.

 The last lingering bastion of civilisation somehow survived barbarian invasions across the danube, Persians at the gates of Constantinople, the Arabs invasions which overran almost everything in its path. Its lands were ravaged a thousand times over its cities sacked and mercilessly looted, yet even though it seemed impossible Byzantium somehow survived and yes, it lived in the past but Byzantium would either stand as it was or fall, always refusing to compromise what the empire was, its origins and the legacy it inherited from Rome.

 I dont think Byzantium could of survived had it not identified with the old empire had it not tried to live the golden years again. That past and heritage was the only thing that united all the empires people, no matter what happened. They were all Roman, refusing to have it any other way, I think thats partly what gave Byzantium such an attraction to me when I first came across it, the child of Rome that tried to bring back the glory days and survive in the world, seemingly always trying to prove itself a worthy successor to Rome.

 It did cost Byzantium but i'd rather have Byzantium as it was than just another medieval empire with no past it treasured and no legacy it tried to preserve.

 

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 13:55
The Byzantines did not just dwell in the past, the lived in the past. Greek Fire seemed to be the only military innovation that they accomplished by themselves. They were using the cataphract even after its effectiveness was much reduced by crossbows and firearms. The west did nothing but prepare for war, and spent years perfecting new ways to kill people. It is a shame they lost their old Roman militaristic spirit. 
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 02:15
I don't blame them 100% for dwelling on the past, most Europeans did it as a matter of course. The old legends tell of a golden age, followed by a silver one, followed by an iron one. To have gone from the time of Jesus, the greatness of Rome and to have witnessed hundreds of years of the decline of the Graeco-Roman-Christian world would make anyone yearn for the past. To the Byzantines, in the forefront of the action and bearing the brunt of the hardships, pessimism can be partly excused.
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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2005 at 16:22
It would have been nice if the Byzantines remained advanced their entire history. However, they did nothing but dwell on the past. Therefore, in every situation, they looked for something that happened in the past to know how to react. Soon, their armies were quaint, rather than unique, their tactics obsolete, and most importantly, their enemies always knew how the Byzantines would react to a given stimulus. Perhaps it is wrong to blame them this way. Why would you think of the present when your past is so glorious?
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2005 at 07:54
Ny-say-ya.

Dont get me wrong as I am not Gibbon reincarnated, but there is something about the closed off world of Constantinople that gives the impression it produced a culture better suited to modern times than medieval. Advanced, sophisticated, urbane, comfortable, a world within itself. I can't help shaking the thought that it offered too nice a distraction and retreat to anyone with lazy inclinations than a provincial city where the hard economic and military realities faced a person constantly. The fact that sumptuous Constantinople could produce a man as austere as Basil II makes me admire the man all the more, he developed his personality inspite of the environment he grew up in.
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 09:56

 Ny-see-a.

 Im not particularly knowledgable on the greek language, but Id of thought theyd pronounce it something like nike-ear for some reason, just sounds more greek to me. Probably totally wrong.

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 09:19
Historians have also argued against moving the imperial seat from Nicaea. They believe that with the administrative center still in Asia Minor and closer to the action, they would have put up a better fight. At least they would have cared more.

Just curious, how do you guys pronounce Nicaea? I say Ny-see-a. However, this is probably wrong due to the fact that there is no soft 'c' in the Greek alphabet.


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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 05:55

 Why did they suddenly change though? ive never understood why when the Nicaeans retook Constantinople they suddenly neglected the empires defences, money suddenly became a real problem, during the Nicaean days the empire wasnt the richest place on the planet but it wasnt poor they found ways of suporting themselves, a succession of poor Emperors also after a run of good Nicaean Emperors.

 Theyd of been better off leaving Constantinople IMO it did nothing for them, its symbolism was great but it had little practical use.

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 05:47
I would agree that 1204 did result in some psychological changes in Byzantium which were for the positive. We see, for example, the royal crown of a Nicaean Empress. It was not purchased through the usual crushing taxation and extravegant spending priorities, but rather simply because Emperor John of Nicaea worked to make an egg farm which was brought in a revenue. I think we see the Nicaean state in particular take on many characteristics which were lacking in the later eras of Byzantine history. We see them, inspite of not having the vital commercial hub of Constantinople, becoming far more economically self sufficient. The Nicaeans also began rebuilding a navy after long years of neglect. We see them hold their established territories and expand them. It seems once they were back in possession of Constantinople that such a self-sufficient and enterprising spirit began to desert them again as they neglected their Asian defences, increased the hiring or mercenary rather than locally recruited troops and scrapped their navy.
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2005 at 08:41

 It seems to make sense in a way, the empire was already falling to pieces pre 1204, parts of the empire breaking away some creating independant greek states. Its very possible had the 4th crusade not happened, this collapse of the empire would have continued anyway to the point were it was conquered leaving nothing for the Byzantines to build a recovery on later.

 Its an interesting point, 1204 was obviously a catastrophe of the highest proportions but the alternative spelled out rapid decline resulting in destruction anyway it would seem.

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2005 at 05:07
As we are talking once again about 1204, I've come across the theory that the fall of Constantinople in 1204 did not contribute to the acceleration of the demise of the Empire, but on the contrary prolonged it's existence. The argument, apparently by a German Byzantine scholar Peter Schreiner,goes that the catastrophe of 1204 enabled the Byzantine to unite once again, to develop a strong feeling of national identity, and concentrate all their efforts on the re-capture of the capital.
(I got all this second hand, so I've got no details of his arguments as yet, and need to think about it a bit more.)
My first reaction would be, that there is something about this theory, but in the balance the devastating effects of 1204, especially the psychological ones, might outweigh any possible postive.




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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 00:04

Originally posted by Constantine XI

1204 - fire and doom and misery and sacrelige and death. The Latins occupy Constantinople for 60 years. In the initial sack much of the city is burnt down, we could probably assume it was the poorer suburbs of the city. What I am theorizing is that over the course of that 60 year period the Latins systematically destroyed a heap of Byzantine literature which painted the Empire in a good light. They had access to all of Constantinople and could translate Byzantine works, isn't it conceivable that a group of anti-Byzantine clerics set out to tarnish their name by searching the city's vast libraries and destroying pro-Byzantine literature? We know that Constantinople was by FAR the cultural capital of the Empire, where all people of talent converged and contributed their works to a city none believed would ever fall. With the vast bulk of their literature left alone with the Latins in the city for 60 years, could the Byzantines really expect their pro-Greek works not to be defaced during this interval during which Byzantinium and the Latins were at war with eachother?

This is a very interesting theory, Constantine XI.  I think the most damage to priceless Byzantine books, manuscripts, and libraries was done during the siege itself, particularly at the end of it.  Once the Latin Crusader army scaled the Theodosian walls using the masts of the Venetian ships, they ran willy-nilly through the city and put much of it to the torch and killed thousands of inhabitants.  It took everything that the Crusader commanders had to calm the soldiery down and to concentrate on putting the fires out, lest they have no Constantinople to live in afterwards.

That the Latins took it upon themselves to obliterate pro-Byzantine works over the period of the Latin Empire (1204-1261), I think is a bit of a stretch considering the military, religious, and political situation in the "Empire."  On a military level, the Latins were trying to defend themselves against the Byzantine successor states in Epirus, Thrace, and Trebizond, the Seljuk Turks, and unruly Frankish counts in Greece and the Morea.  On a religious, the Latin ecclesiastics were fighting with the Pope for control of the Patriarchate, and with the Byzantine clerics over theology.  In politics, the Frankish barons were endlessly quarreling with the Venetians on how the Empire would be divided up and to whom the trading privileges would go.  In the end, they probably had neither the time nor the resources (especially Latin clerics who could read Byzantine Greek) to devote towards the meticulous task of destroying pro-Byzantine books and manuscripts.  Also, we have to figure in the damage done to what was left of Constantinopolitan treasures by the Ottoman Turks in 1453!

For an idea of the amount of destruction done to Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade, look at:

Donald E. Queller. The Fourth Crusade : the conquest of Constantinople, 1201-1204. Philadelphia, PA: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1977.

Thomas Madden. A Concise History of the Crusades. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield, 1999.

Jonathan Philips. The Fourth Crusade and the Sack of Constantinople. London, UK: Jonathan Cape, 2004.

Thomas Madden. "The Fires of the Fourth Crusade in Constantinople, 1203-1204: A Damage Assessment." Byzantinische Zeitschrift 84-85 (1991-1992): 72-93.

Thomas Madden. "Venice and Constantinople in 1171 and 1172; Enrico Dandolo's Attitude Towards Byzantium." Mediterranean Historical Review 8 (1993): 166-185.

C. G. Ferrard. "The Amount of Constantinopolitan Booty in 1204." Studi Veneziani 13 (1971): 95-104.



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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 12:31

I also believe that Byzantine neglect has more mundane reasons.

During the rise of the west, with an asterisk on 'western Europe', it became assured that western scholarly works would be the basis for all scholarly sources. The proud nationalists of the west did their best to exaggerate, glorify, and embellish their own origins at the expense of others. Since the rise of the west occured at the same time as Byzantium's entire history, it is no doubt that Byzantium was largerly ignored.

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