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Taiwan vote

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Poll Question: Taiwan belongs to China
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
16 [64.00%]
9 [36.00%]
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Kulong View Drop Down
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  Quote Kulong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Taiwan vote
    Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 02:57
Originally posted by hansioux

That's fine, if you don't want to test your beliefs with
logic and fact, suite yourself.

Haha, nice bait, much more tempting than your first. Unfortunately, I've
learned that TI-supporters generally have anything but logic and facts.
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cattus View Drop Down
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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 03:00
Kulong, you posted same exact time as me and the page flipped... not to stray but could you briefly tell me about the warrior in your avatar.. movie,ect.?
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hansioux View Drop Down
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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 03:03

Originally posted by Kulong


Haha, nice bait, much more tempting than your first. Unfortunately, I've
learned that TI-supporters generally have anything but logic and facts.

hehe, this forum is for logical discussions over history myth and facts.  Judging a person by their beliefs is a kind of racism.

Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.

Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
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Kulong View Drop Down
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  Quote Kulong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 13:06
Originally posted by hansioux

Originally posted by Kulong

Haha, nice bait, much more
tempting than your first. Unfortunately, I've learned that TI-supporters
generally have anything but logic and facts.


hehe, this forum is for logical discussions over history myth and facts.
Judging a person by their beliefs is a kind of racism.


"Racism"? Please refrain from misusing such a serious word. I admit, I
am anti-TI, that is my political view just as some are anti-U.S., some are
anti-China... etc. If I wanted to associate with TI-supporters, all I have to
do is head on over to TaiwanUnity.org, they are infamous for TI-
supporting.
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TMPikachu View Drop Down
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  Quote TMPikachu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 19:41
Originally posted by MengTzu

 Unlike Confucian elitism, Buddhist solitude, Christianity brings people together in a way that few religions have achieved.  It's not surprising that Asians are so drawn to it.

 

Why should religion bring people together? Not to say that's a bad thing, just wondering why you think that is a strong point. I just think that's religion stepping into the realm of politics.

Christian's probably have the most elitist beliefs out there. Summed up simply it's "You're either with us or you go to hell".

Confucianism really shouldn't be called a religion. I think it's western culture that labels it a religion, coming from a time of intensely fanantical beliefs. Boyscouts are as valid a religion as Confucianism.

 



Edited by TMPikachu
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hansioux View Drop Down
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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 20:22
Originally posted by Kulong

Originally posted by hansioux

Originally posted by Kulong

Haha, nice bait, much more
tempting than your first. Unfortunately, I've learned that TI-supporters
generally have anything but logic and facts.


hehe, this forum is for logical discussions over history myth and facts. 
Judging a person by their beliefs is a kind of racism.


"Racism"? Please refrain from misusing such a serious word. I admit, I
am anti-TI, that is my political view just as some are anti-U.S., some are
anti-China... etc. If I wanted to associate with TI-supporters, all I have to
do is head on over to TaiwanUnity.org, they are infamous for TI-
supporting.

Yes, you may choose not to engage in a conversation with anyone you wish.  I already said suite yourself.  

However, generalizing a group of people for their believes is a discrimination.  For example you saying " I've learned that TI-supporters generally have anything but logic and facts."

That is like someone saying "I have learned that people who are Jewish are selfish money grabbers."  It is a stereotype and a racist comment.

Stop avoiding the point.  You obviously have hatred towards people supporting Taiwanese Independence.  I simply ask you to stop generalizing, discrimination, and listen to reason.



Edited by hansioux
Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.

Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
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Zhuang View Drop Down
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  Quote Zhuang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 12:02
And the reasons?
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 15:47

Christian's probably have the most elitist beliefs out there. Summed up simply it's "You're either with us or you go to hell".


Actually it's either believe Jesus is your lord and go to hell, note this decision may be made after death so not even good christians can say if Johnny Buddhist is going to hell or not.


Confucianism really shouldn't be called a religion. I think it's western culture that labels it a religion, coming from a time of intensely fanantical beliefs. Boyscouts are as valid a religion as Confucianism.


I agree entirely as a former Boy Scout and current Confucianist as well as a confirmed Christian I see no contradictions in either belief. Actually, the Jesuits in China were trying to get the papacy to allow teaching of Confucianist beliefs to help convert the local populace. Unfortunately the lost out to another monastic group (I believe it was the fransiscans who decided it was to heathenous).
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
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  Quote Evildoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 17:11

After death? Where does that come from?

All of the three well-known monotheist religions condemn people to hell if they do not belive in their God. Of course that is the traditional line - people like me no longer believe that condition.

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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 20:07

Originally posted by Zhuang

And the reasons?

in the thread "On the subject of Taiwan"

Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.

Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2004 at 03:23
Originally posted by Zhuang

People in Hong Kong will gain their full freedom whenever Beijing believes that the local government will not be posing threats to the central government (within a decade or two as I might guess).

In another words, when the HK people have been brain washed not to give a whimp to what ever order the Beijing government gives, then they can vote for themselves.

What China has is never communism.  It is pure Fascism.  The Chinese "People's" Army only swears allegence to the Chinese Communist Party.  I am glad you don't think Taiwan and China should be unified.  But too bad you and the few Chinese people who do think so will never dare to suggest this to your leaders to make them change the path they are taking.

People in China should think "Why people in Taiwan, Tibet and East Turkistan don't want to be united with China, and the only way to keep them at bay is constant military force.  Not to mention these nations weren't party of China in the first place, but China itself is just a brualic Police State that supresses anyone who dares to challenge the leading party.  And the mere fact that most people in China lack the courage to recongize that and speak out against the evil, just makes the hatred that much more.

Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.

Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
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Zhuang View Drop Down
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  Quote Zhuang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 23:25

Apart from your reasons, why can't reunification be win-win?

What will Taiwan lose after reunification? Your freedom? I think Beijing does not want to impose communism on Taiwan, communisim is fading even in mainland China. Your wealth? Beijing does not want to extract tributes from Taiwan, either.

Then what will Taiwan gain after reunification? Peace? No more missiles. No more hundreds of billion NT$ for buying American weapons. No more money of Taiwanese/Chinese sweat and blood flooded into corrupt Latin American/Oceanian/African politicians' hands. Prosperity? China and Taiwan can share their economic success and help each other.

Yes PRC missiles are pointing to ROC, but how about ROC missiles? Chinese people are told that Taiwanese people are their brothers and sisters and they will not tolerate sisters and brothers being potential enemies. Peace could only exist if China and Taiwan is one.

TO BE CLARIFIED: I am NOT a chauvinist (please, spare me the label). My point is not ROC should be a part of PRC. ROC and PRC are both parts of China IMHO. I understand that there are misunderstandings between ROC and PRC. So PRC must not "annex" (NO this is NEVER right) ROC if its people are resisting. But ROC too must not challenge PRC by declaring independence (which is regarded hostile). So I prefer EU style (GRADUALLY but not by 2008 - in fact anarchism is more preferable). Why not we just look forward to decades later (when all communists and nationalists are extinct) and enjoy forever peace across the strait?

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  Quote sephodwyrm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 23:37

Until friend Qin army can update this screwed up poll, I am just going to give my opinion as a citizen of ROC.

ROC independence can only be achieved with unification and a powerful China. Feel free to ask me why, but I have a lab to attend to.

And friend I, who's that lovely lass you have in your signature?  I'm actually blushing looking at that.

Oh, and Zhuang. You're already a chauvinist like me. Its membership is very easy. In fact, they give it to you unilaterally. If you're against the current TI movement, you're chauvinist. But hey, we're the good people here.you too..

"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 01:49

Hey Sephodwyrm,

    Her name is Jun Ji-hyun, famous for her role in "My Sassy Girl."  Honestly not the best Korean film I've seen, but it's a cute film.

Peace,

Michael

10-6-2004

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hansioux View Drop Down
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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 13:28
Originally posted by Zhuang

Apart from your reasons, why can't reunification be win-win?

What will Taiwan lose after reunification? Your freedom? I think Beijing does not want to impose communism on Taiwan, communisim is fading even in mainland China. Your wealth? Beijing does not want to extract tributes from Taiwan, either.

Then what will Taiwan gain after reunification? Peace? No more missiles. No more hundreds of billion NT$ for buying American weapons. No more money of Taiwanese/Chinese sweat and blood flooded into corrupt Latin American/Oceanian/African politicians' hands. Prosperity? China and Taiwan can share their economic success and help each other.

Yes PRC missiles are pointing to ROC, but how about ROC missiles? Chinese people are told that Taiwanese people are their brothers and sisters and they will not tolerate sisters and brothers being potential enemies. Peace could only exist if China and Taiwan is one.

TO BE CLARIFIED: I am NOT a chauvinist (please, spare me the label). My point is not ROC should be a part of PRC. ROC and PRC are both parts of China IMHO. I understand that there are misunderstandings between ROC and PRC. So PRC must not "annex" (NO this is NEVER right) ROC if its people are resisting. But ROC too must not challenge PRC by declaring independence (which is regarded hostile). So I prefer EU style (GRADUALLY but not by 2008 - in fact anarchism is more preferable). Why not we just look forward to decades later (when all communists and nationalists are extinct) and enjoy forever peace across the strait?

 

If you want to create a winwin situation, then stop deneying that Taiwan is a nation.  Start cooperation and stop with the coercion.  Besides, you don't need to be one nation or what you call "reunify" to have cooeration.  I like EU style too, I don't recall any EU nations forcing others to merge into one nation.  By forcing us, China and the people that support their government for doing so are just inspiring hatred.

What do Taiwanese people lose?  Everything we worked on for the past 50 years, lives, freedom blood and tears to have all the democratic rights that we enjoy.  Democracy and freedom is not "given" to anyone.  We fought for it, and we'd like to keep it.  And the people of Taiwan sure as hell wouldn't want to do it again.

Spare me with the one nation two system crap.  Look at the Hongkongese election.  You have 2/3 of the members already hand picked by the PRC, and the rest of the seats are up for election?  Only idiots will think that's real democracy.

Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.

Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 19:30
Oh wait, and only idiots will think that British Hong Kong is true democracy.
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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 19:38

Originally posted by warhead

Oh wait, and only idiots will think that British Hong Kong is true democracy.

I never said that was democracy either.  But at least it was better than PRc's version.  They got to vote for the entire council members.  Hong Kong is the best example that freedom is not given to you.  And don't wait for freedom to be given to you just because you are fed.

Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.

Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 19:43
Better? I think not, at least Hong kong under the PRC has a superior position to the rest of China, during British rule, they are inferior people. Voting is a minor issue of freedom, press and speech is much more important, which is denied under the British regime, afterall few people when given the opportunity cares much about voting, but whats clear is that Hong Kong do not need to pay tax to China whereupon it has to for the British.
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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 19:45

Originally posted by warhead

Better? I think not, at least Hong kong under the PRC has a superior position to the rest of China, during British rule, they are inferior people. Voting is a minor issue of freedom, press and speech is much more important, which is denied under the British regime, afterall few people when given the opportunity cares much about voting, but whats clear is that Hong Kong do not need to pay tax to China whereupon it has to for the British.

yeah, as long as they are fed.

Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.

Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 19:45
They are
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