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hansioux
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Topic: Taiwan vote Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 19:52 |
Originally posted by warhead
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What incredible achievement!!!
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Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.
Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
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warhead
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Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 19:56 |
Indeed. Thus the lack of incentive.
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MengTzu
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Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 21:02 |
Hey warhead,
I have no idea what you're smoking man. I don't know if the British view Hong Kongese as inferior anymore than they view the rest of the world as inferior, but for all practical purposes, Hong Kongese take up the majority role of governance. You gotta understand that Hong Kongese don't view that the British rule was humiliating to them. Now, with the way the PRC government encoaching on the rights of Hong Kongese, it seems it is now that the Hong Kongese feel truly inferior and bullied around.
Peace,
Michael
10-7-2004
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Zhuang
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Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 23:58 |
Hey hansioux,
I said there should NEVER be "annexation" (or so-called "merge"), and I did not mention one nation two systems even a bit (I know you guys dislike that term very much).
What makes you think that Beijing is gonna to change Taiwanese political system (your treasured democracy)? For Hong Kong, I think its freedom is not worse (if not better). People in Hong Kong became angry because (1) The HKSAR goverment was incompetent dealing with worsening economics; (2) They were demanding more political rights. But Beijing is afraid to see an anti-Beijing HKSAR government (believe me it could be very disastrous). So this is not the time to give full rights to HK (and they did not have the rights during British rule). After all there are still soils for anti-communist elites after hundreds of years of colonization and "brainwashing" (which is not a communist patent ^_^). People in Hong Kong will gain their full freedom whenever Beijing believes that the local government will not be posing threats to the central government (within a decade or two as I might guess).
Not a good choice I have to admit but there seems to be no other choice. China and Hong Kong are just experimenting a way to get along with. Taiwan is different. You can keep whatever you like (except hostility against China ^_^).
BTW, to me freedom is not doing whatever you like. A strong government just like that of Singapore will suit China better than that of Taiwan. (ATTENTION: my words has no other meaning - maybe Taiwanese system of government suits Taiwan most).
BTW again, I am not defending communism. I dislike it just like most of you guys. But nothing is more important than a stable China which suits the interests of China and Hong Kong, even Taiwan.
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warhead
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 10:04 |
"I have no idea what you're smoking man. I don't know if the British view Hong Kongese as inferior anymore than they view the rest of the world as inferior, but for all practical purposes, Hong Kongese take up the majority role of governance. "
Whatever I'm smoking, you're obviously on pot. Hong kong don't have many rights that British people have, obviously they are inferior. I don't know where you got the idea that Hong Kong don't view Biritish rule as humiliating, thats true with many, but there are also a very good amount that does, if you just look at Hong Kong movie media, many are anti british.
"with the way the PRC government encoaching on the rights of Hong Kongese, it seems it is now that the Hong Kongese feel truly inferior and bullied around."
Inferior to who? The more inferior Chinese on the mainland? Hong kong is lucky to have what it has, it should have been taken by force by the PLA a long time ago and made into a part of Canton. Bullied by who? Its not even a separate country so you're mumbling about it bull;ied by itself I guess, at least Hong Kong is part of a country, back then its part of a empire.
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warhead
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 10:06 |
So there are mainland appointed officials, big deal, is it wrong to appoint people in your own country? Gee I didn't know that was wrong too. I guess all the countries in the world are messed up according to your logic.
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Evildoer
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 10:13 |
In my opinion, Hong Kong would have been better under Brits than under PRC. The governor himself was elected by the citizens rather than appointed by the PRC government as under Communist rule.
I don't have an in-depth knowledge on this topic, but I don't think HKers were mistreated by the Brits, at least not in the recent decade.
My question is: Is lowering of human rights standards just for the sake of being equal citizens acceptable?
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warhead
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 10:19 |
Depends on the people.
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babyblue
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 10:25 |
hmm....if you ask me...i'd say HK shoulda been handed over back to the ROC.
and warhead...how can you make HK a part of Canton? they're two seperate cities aren't they?
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Evildoer
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 10:28 |
In my opinion there should have been a referendum to decide wether HK would want to be a part of UK, ROC or PRC. Or they could choose to form their own nation.
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warhead
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 11:28 |
"and warhead...how can you make HK a part of Canton? they're two seperate cities aren't they?"
Sorry I menat the guan dong province.
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warhead
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 11:29 |
HK's supply all depend on china's, without the mainland, it would not prosper, its reunification is inevitable, had it not been because of Hong Kong's vital link to the mainland, Britain might very well turn back on its treaty(in fact it already has) about the 99 years lease.
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Zhuang
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 13:37 |
Originally posted by Evildoer
In my opinion there should have been a referendum to decide wether HK would want to be a part of UK, ROC or PRC. Or they could choose to form their own nation.
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Were there a referendum they will still choose to be a part of PRC. They might dislike Chinese government, but they are undoubtedly emotionally/economically tied to Chinese people. Not every people want to form their independent nation. That does no good to Hong Kong.
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MengTzu
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 13:47 |
Hey warhead,
Unfortunately you're arguing with the wrong person. I lived half my life in Hong Kong. It was really the Mainland people who thought that it was humiliating that Hong Kong was under British rule. Hong Kong media is as much anti-Britain as it is anti-Mainland. It's the free speech culture that developed in Hong Kong to criticize just about everything political.
Fact is that the people of Hong Kong were indifferent to how they politically compare to Britain. On many levels the people of Hong Kong were much better off. Its relation to Britain was so vague that there was practically no loyalty or comaraderie to speak of. A best assessment of how Hong Kongese viewed themselves was practically that of an independent country. With London and Beijing so far away, the Hong Kong government (my dad was a civil servant himself) mostly consists of Hong Kongese taking care their own business.
If you think that a government cannot bully its people, then the PRC revolution was pretty pointless in the first place. The government bullying its people is different from a person bullying himself, so you made a moot analogy there. You mistakenly assumed that only foreign powers can bully a country. In fact, much bullying is done by one's own state.
Peace,
Michael
10-7-2004
Edited by MengTzu
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MengTzu
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 13:53 |
Hey babyblue,
Actually, warhead was right that Canton is the province. The city is Guang Zhou.
Peace,
Michael
10-8-2004
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Zhuang
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 13:58 |
BTW how Canada sees Quebecois Independence (QI)?
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Evildoer
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 14:23 |
That was what I thought Meng Tzu. Practically every Chinese person in Canada is from Hong Kong, and they do not affiliate themselves with either PRC or UK. Hong Kong practically has its own representatives for interanational events. Weren't there a Hong Kong team for Olyimpic Games 2004?
Most Canadians are very much opposed to Quebecois independence. There is some sort of prejucide against the French-Candians, although it is never extreme.
In the last referendum of 1998, the separatists lost by less than 1%... The arguments of the Separatists (Parti Quebecois) is that Quebec needs to rule itself because of its unique identity and unique needs (ie. education).
Personally, I actually support Quebecois Independence. Canada calls itself multi-cultural, but isn't its "core-culture" based on a totally Anglo-American blend? Because Quebec has a different "core-culture" it deserves to be an independent state.
Edited by Evildoer
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MengTzu
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 14:30 |
Hey evildoer,
Idealogues can't make a change without arms. Quebec, Taiwan, Hong Kong can talk all they want. Political powers all come down to who has the military. I think the Hong Kongese have grown used to this reality. The thing is, politically Hong Kong is a part of China, but the collective consciousness of the people sees themselves independent regardless of politics.
Peace,
Michael
10-8-2004
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Evildoer
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 14:34 |
A huge portion of Canada's military is French Canadian, considering that 1/3 of Canada is Francophone.
In 1998 referendum I spoke of, Canadian Prime Minister Chretien (Quebecois) was actually considering invasion of Quebec if the separatists won. But as of current popular opinion, I don't think Canadians would insist upon having a civil war to stop separation. That is at least what I hope.
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warhead
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 14:37 |
"Unfortunately you're arguing with the wrong person. I lived half my life in Hong Kong. It was really the Mainland people who thought that it was humiliating that Hong Kong was under British rule. Hong Kong media is as much anti-Britain as it is anti-Mainland. It's the free speech culture that developed in Hong Kong to criticize just about everything political.
Fact is that the people of Hong Kong were indifferent to how they politically compare to Britain. "
You're not the only one that lived in Hong Kong, my friend, I have cousins that live there too, and its ridiculous to say that all of them actually are indifferent, there are a great number that does feel humiliated, you can ask me for names, but it would be endless. Just look at all the Hong Kong films, which one actually say positive things about British imperialism?
"On many levels the people of Hong Kong were much better off. Its relation to Britain was so vague that there was practically no loyalty or comaraderie to speak of. A best assessment of how Hong Kongese viewed themselves was practically that of an independent country. With London and Beijing so far away, the Hong Kong government (my dad was a civil servant himself) mostly consists of Hong Kongese taking care their own business."
Sorry, but many rich people in Hong Kong love the PRC, when they got out of business, the PRC supported them, and many are part of the party today, so you're generalization is shallow at best in regarding to the whole situation.
" If you think that a government cannot bully its people, then the PRC revolution was pretty pointless in the first place. The government bullying its people is different from a person bullying himself, so you made a moot analogy there. You mistakenly assumed that only foreign powers can bully a country. In fact, much bullying is done by one's own state. "
Do tell me how they are bullied exactly.
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