July 25th, 1461- Conquest of Trebizond

So those of you who like the idea of a united Turanian state dislike Ataturk?

Well, the idea of Turan was just a political purpose for that time. And it was an impossible purpose, a purpose which drove the empire to the end. Ataturk was against it because he was for being busy with the new republic's inner works and reforms, rather than imperialk Pan-Turkish missions. Turan was a harmful dream, beautiful but impossible, because it was used as a puppet.

I always tought Chamli Hemshinlis were Georgians, their looks, their traditions are very similar with Georgians of the region. But yes, it says they are Armenians. Anyway, I know they arent Turks.

Ataturk was a member of Itt�had ve Terakki once, but his ideas were totallu against theirs. Ataturk was all against Turan and Enver Pasha was his rival. He was declared a traitor by the Ottoman government, so practically, he was against both.

But he developed some of the ideas of Young Turks, such as nationalism and secularism. He was influenced with their purpose of creating a modern Turkish nation from the multiethnical, collapsed structure of the empire. His other actions were against the purposes of Young Turks.

I think you're referring to Chamli Hemshin, a region east of Rize. There lives no Armenians or Rums there, but Islamicized Georgians and Laz. Most of the Muslim Rums live around Trebizond, but there arent any significant numbers of Armenians.

The Sevres treaty gave the cities of Trebizond and Erzincan to Armenia, but those cities didnt have major Armenian populations. As I said, Erzurum, Kars, Bitlis, Ardahan were the most Armenian populated cities.

Trebizond had a major population of Laz, people related with Georgian but not Georgian. Laz still occupy most of the population in Trebizond and eastern regions. They have been inhabiting the region since even before Milet colonies.

Armenians have never been a dominant popuylation in Trebizond, Rums and Laz were. So Armenian claims on that city werent sensible. The Russian wanted Armenia to claim Trebizond so that they would have a rich trading Black Sea dock in the south. The main Armenian population of that time was dispersed around the Eastern province, Erzurum, Kars, Van, Bitlis, Tunceli etc. During Ottoman reign, Sivas was a dominantly Turkish city, then Kurd and Armenians.

The Treaty of Sevres was sharing the lands with dominant Turkish populations btw other states. The Ottoman dynasty have signed it, but the new authority of Ankara, the founders of Turkish Republic werent any related with Ottoman authority, they were even wanted by the Padishah. But they didnt accept that treaty, fought with the Greek army. Then the It�laf States had to leave Turkey. With Ataturk's leadership, there happened lots of battles btw Turks and Greeks. Turkey won its independence (not Ottoman Empire), and signed the Lausanene Treaty, which is internationally recognized. And then, Ataturk's government exiled the Osmanogly dynasty, declared the republic, ended the sultanate and caliphate.

So practically, as it's internationally recognized, Ottoman Empire signed the treaty of Sevres, but Turkey didnt. And naturally, Turkey isnt the total succesor state of Ottoman Empire, and isnt responsible with the treaties it signed, or the actions it took.

Thanks for your responses.

How large was the Armenian community in the Byzantine Empire? I have not heard about many of them being in Trebizond. I was under the impression that Trebizond was heavily Georgian.


Edited by Belisarius

Originally posted by Belisarius While we are on the subject of Hellas, does anyone know what the word means?

The Hellenes considered themselves the descendants of one common ancestor, Hellen, the son of Deucalion and Pyrrha. To Hellen were ascribed three sons, Dorus, Xuthus, and AEolus. Of these Dorus and AEolus gave their names to the DORIANS and AEOLIANS; and Xuthus; through his two sons Ion and Achaeus, became the forefather of the IONIANS and ACHAEANS. Thus the Greeks accounted for the origin of the four great divisions of their race. The descent of the Hellenes from a common ancestor, Hellen, was a fundamental article in the popular faith. It was a general practice in antiquity to invent fictitious persons for the purpose of explaining names of which the origin was buried in obscurity. It was in this way that Hellen and his sons came into being; but though they never had any real existence, the tales about them may be regarded as the traditional history of the races to whom they gave their names.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/hi story-of-ancient-greece-2-origin.asp

Originally posted by Yiannis Originally posted by Oguzoglu   Trebizond was ethnically consisted of Rums . Rums? What is this nationality?

Originally posted by Mortaza <>we  call greeks who  live  in Turkey or Cyprus as Rum. And greek who live in Greece are Yunan.

Rum - from "Rome" (specifically, "Rome in Asia").  Contemporary Turkish name for all Anatolian lands (and their peoples) that once belonged to the East Roman Empire.

I have a vague memory of it being to do with two twins in mythology. One of whom was dropped into the Bosphorus while flying over it, the name of that child being Hellas apparently. But that's my vague memory on it, to be honest I have very little idea.

Lol and yes, I have seen the other threads debating the ethnicity of the Anatolians. If they want to try and prove me wrong I say bring it, I'm in need of a challenge .

Well it has long been a region known as Hellas. But the Greeks used the terms in ancient times, the late Byzantine period and in modern times. The other Byzantinists have already pointed this out. Regardless of what they called themselves, a large Greek population existed from ancient until modern times from the Western Balkans deep into Anatolia.

I thought that the term 'hellene' was used by the ancient Greeks to describe their people as a whole. The Greeks banned the term because they thought of it as having pagan connotation, as you said Byzantine Emperor. When the Byzantine Empire was reduced to only is Greek elements, the term Hellene was used again to inspire nationalism in what remained of the empire.

I said in the previous post, Greeks in the Muslim lands are called "Rum". They are seen as the remains of the Roman Empire. Also it is us who call Greeks in the Greece as "Yunan". As far as I know, they don't differ between "Rum" and "Yunan". They say "both are Hellens"...