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takabara or takabaran?

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  Quote Hormoz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: takabara or takabaran?
    Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 10:48
Originally posted by Sikander

 

Huuummm, that Takabara issue is quite interesting... perhaps they could be either medium or light infantry, just like the peltephoroi (or peltast)...

Here follows what I have being doing these last few days -  Cv means Cavalry; Bw means Bowmen; Ed means Edge (swordbearers); Sp is for Spearmen; Cm means camelry; L is light, H is heavy, M is medium, A is (horse) archer, e is elite.

I would realy thank if anyone could correct me or just say anything bour it:

Sikander

 

II/XX Achaemenid Persian 560 BC  329 BC

All Reg Co; Hilly/Aridchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />>>

>>

Huvakan asabāran retinue                              C vMe/CvHe          0-1           0-2           0-3>>

Convert the above to mounted archers    CvMAe/CvHAe                     any>>

Huvakan asabāran                                             CvMe                        0-3           0-6           0-10>>

Convert the above to mounted archers    CvMAe                                      up to >>

Persian, Median, Paphlagonian and Armenian asabāran    CvM   2-5           4-10         6-15>>

Convert the above to light cavalry                   CvL                                              up to >>

Convert the above to mounted archers        CvMA/ CvLA                          up to >>

Bactrian and Arachosian asabāran           CvM/CvL                1-2           2-4           3-6>>

Convert the above to mounted archers          CvLA                                         any>>

Bactrian and Arabian ushabāran                     CmM/CmL               0-2           0-4           0-6>>

Artibāran retinue                                                           SpMe                        0-1           0-2           0-3>>

Amrtakan                                                      SpMe/BwMe        0-2           0-4           0-6>>

Thanuvabāran                                                             BwM                         4-10         8-18         12-24>>

   Convert the above to Thanuvabāran w/ Sparabāran    BwH                                  any>>

Kardakan mercenaries                            BwM/EdM/SpM       2-6           4-12         6-18>>

Downgrade the above to light infantry         SpL/BwL                                                      any>>

Assyrian, Egyptian and Ionian heavy infantry      SpHi                        0-2           0-4           0-6>>

Phoenician, Saka, Median and African marines    SpM/EdM               0-2           0-4           0-6>>

Scythed chariots                                                             Ex                               0-1           0-2           0-3>>

> >

a)       from 519 BC>>

Saka cavalry                                               CvL/CvLA               0-4           0-8           0-12>>

 Convert the above to elite mounted archers         CvLAe                                       up to >>

Indian Kshatryas                                             SpM/EdM               0-2           0-4           0-6>>

Indian bowmen                                                BwM/BwL               0-4           0-8           0-12>>

> >

b)       from 401 BC>>

Convert the Huvakan to cataphract                      CvHe                         0-1           0-2           0-4>>

> >

c)       Between 401 BC 332 BC>>

Hellenic hoplite mercenaries                         SpH     

Hellenic peltephoroi mercenaries                SpM/SpL                 0-2           0-4           0-6>>

> >

d)       Between 375 BC 370 BC>>

Convert the peltephoroi to Iphikratean peltephoroi    PkM                                             any>>

> >

> >

This list covers the armies of the Achaemenid (or Hakhmaniiya) Dynasty begining with the rule of Cyrus the Great, until the Empires conquest by Alexander and his Mecedonian/Hellenic army. In spite of the weakness shown at the Thermopilai, Platea, Marathon, Issus and Gaugamela, to name just a few battles, the fact is that, under the Achaemenid Dynasty, chemas-microsoft-comfficemarttags" />t="on">Persia became the biggest and richest Empire on earth, stretching from the Mediterranean to the Indus and from t="on">Bactria to lace wt="on">Arabialace>.>>

One of the main problem when dealing with the Persians is that most of what we know has been given to us by foreigners, namely the Hellenes. And even though a foreign look may notice otherwise neglected details, nonetheless its still misleading due to lack of information and bad interpretations. That is why we, for instance, know more about the Applebearers and the Immortals, a noticeable minority, than we know about the rest of the army.>>

The Persians organized its military in a decimal structure by which a regiment of a thousand men (hazarabam) was divided into ten satabam of a hundred each, these being also divided into ten databam. Ten hazarabam would in turn compose a baivarabam. Needless to say, the paper strength of each unit was not always maintained.>>

The Persians tactics employed great masses of cavalry in order to break the enemys opposition, and every nobleman was expected to be both a good horseman and a good bowman. The option for converting the cavalry into mounted-archers reflects this training, even if in later years the bow was progressively substituted by the javelin. The ShaanShas (King of Kings) mounted retinue and the elite cavalry baivarabam were made of nobles. After Cyrus defeat at the hands of the Scythians, part of the cavalry seams to have adopted armor, both for the riders and for the horses.>>

The ShaanShas foot retinue were the Artibāran, or Applebearers, because their spears butt resembled a golden apple. The Amrtakan, or Immortals, were an elite baivaraban that was always kept to 10 000 men strong.>>

The main body of the foot were the thanuvabāran (bow-bearers), who were employed en masse to deliver showers of arrows onto the enemy, thus weakening his defences against the Persian cavalry. Sometimes the thanuvabāran put themselves under the protection of the sparabāran (shield-bearers), armed with a short sword or falchion and a spara, a large pavise-like shield. Since the was only one sparabāra for every 10 men in a archer unit, we have given the option for converting the thanuvabāran into BwH. >>

The Kardakan were presumably non-Persian mercenary infantry recruited either to act as garrison troops or as part of the standing field army. Its origins were many: Assyrian, Egyptian, Ethiopian, Indian, Lycian, Median, Phoenician, Semitic, and Saka (although this later origin may also include Bactrians and Sogdians as well) among many others. They seem to have been armed with bows, spears, short swords, falchions, sickles and war axes, and also with shields. The Egyptian and Assyrian are recorded to have used armor.>>

The Hellenes started to be employed right after the conquest of Ionia by the Persians, but their widespread use as mercenaries only started after the First Persian War. These mercenaries became famous after the Ten Thousand led by Xenophon. By 379 BC, the Athenian general Iphikrates led a 20 000 strong contingent of Hellenes, most of whom seem to have been nothing more than peltasts (or peltephoroi). In order to remedy this situation, Iphikrates issued them linen cuirasses, a big, round peltai, and a 3,6m long spear, thus making them the first sarissophoroi in History.>>

After the conquest of Bactria and the submission of the Sakas (a Scythian-like people), contingents of these peoples were widely employed. The Bactrians were famous for their horses and they also used camels as  war mounts. The Sakas fought both as horse-archers and as foot soldiers, although this later fighting style could point to a more sedentary kind of life typical of a Bactrian or Sogdian origin.>>

The last 50 years of the Achaemenid Empire saw it ravaged by internal strife in the way of satrapal rebellions, province secessions, dynastic struggles, regicides and constant palace conspiracies. At this stage, the Empire was ready to pick, and Alexander III of Macedon took charge of this. Against the Hellenic wave, Darius III trusted in his asabāran, his mercenaries and in sheer numbers. But to cope with this, Alexander used to good effect an outstanding army with a sarissophoroi hedgehog and a formidable cavalry,  but most of all, he used is unparalleled genius.>>

> >

> >

Main references:>>

Burns, Paul. The question of Persian cataphract cavalry; Slingshot n 74, November 1977, p. 53>>

Hamblin, William. Whats in a name?: Old Persian military terminology; Slingshot n 109, September 1983, p. 32>>

Head, Duncan. Xerxes Army in Greece, 480-479 BC; Slingshot n 181, September 1995, pp. 12-19>>

Nayker, Adrian. Lost and found in Anatolia; Slingshot n 201, January 1999, pp. 28-29>>

Nikonorov, Valerii. The Armies of Bactria, 700 BC 450 AD; Montvert Publications, 1997>>

Sekunda, Nicholas; McBride, Angus (ill.). The Army of Alexander the Great; Osprey Publishing (Men-at-Arms 148) 1997>>

Sekunda, Nicholas; Chew, Simon (ill.). The Persian Army 560-330 BC; Osprey Publishing (Elite 42) 1992>>

Jvid-moshref, Rmin. The Achaemenid Army; Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies at the School of Oriental & African Studies, University of London>>

 

 

I have never done wargaming but that looks pretty complete.  One question: aren't Indian Kshathriyas (sp, sry) anybody in the soldier class, rather than seperate from the bowmen (who also engaged the enemy in close quarters with the longsword)?  it is off topic I apologize. 

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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 06:11

I gess I're maybe wright, Hormoz... After all, the Kshathriyas (I've allready corrected it - thanks!) were the warrior class so it would include the bowmen as well.

If by any chance you would like to do some wargaming, try the AWr (Archane Warfare) rules, which are the best, at least to my knowledge.

Best Regards

Sikander

 

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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 20:34
Originally posted by Cent

Hmm, some words we also use in the kurdish language!

Many words are also very similar to kurdish.

Yes Cent and they should, I would be shocked if it didn't. I appreciate it if you could write those that are similar as well as the Kurdish word for them.

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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 20:59
Originally posted by Hormoz

Originally posted by Yekta

Originally posted by Zagros Purya

Tak is attack, taki is solo (correct me if I am wrong).

This is what I found in Aryanpour dictionary:

Tak = Solo, alone, lonely

Tak = as in takapou/tak+a+pou = Search, running around

Tak = attack, padtak = antiattack.

 

I thought it would make more sense that the meaning of Tak as it is used in Takavar would be single/alone/solo since any soldier attacks, but commandos tend to operate alone or in small groups conducting special operations.

I agree, it does make more sence since they mostly are kinda solo doers. I just wrote the meanings I found in dictionary, but words do change meaning when combined i.e: bl(wing) + Gard(rotating)= BlGard = Helicopter

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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 21:09
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

As I said "bara" has different meanings in Persian, for example in DPd Darius the Great says "Auramazd man upastm baratuv" (May Ahuramazda bear me aid) and in DB5 he says "Sak tyaiy xaudm tigrm baratiy" [Tigra means "Pointed/Sharp" here] (Scythians who wear the pointed helmet), of course "bara" doesn't mean "to wear" in Persian because hats are not considered as wearable things. [In modern Persian we say "he has a hat on his head"].

(x=kh) so this xaudm could be xoud(helmet) as in "kolhxoud"  and "xaudm tigrm" would mean "TizXoud", hmm that is very interesting.

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2005 at 11:24
The more interesting word is upastm, it shows in the ancient times when Persians wanted to say "Support me", they said "Be behind me" as we say today "Poshtam bash".
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2005 at 14:25
"Back me up" in english.
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  Quote Peukestas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2005 at 16:15
Sikander,

In DNa and DSm Dareios the Great lists the Yauna Takabara (hat-
wearing Greeks - maybe the Macedonians) as subjects. In A?P one
of the Artaxerxes also lists the Yauna Takabara.

What is the primary source for Takabara and Sparabara meaning
"shieldbearer" in Old Persian? Did a wargamer make them up?

Also, did a wargamer make up Artibaran (apple-bearers), Amrtakan
(Immortals), and Huvakan (I don't have any idea what this means, but
I'd be interested to know.)?

In your wargaming army list, you call the Achaimenid king
"ShaanShas (King of Kings)". What is the source for that term? It
may be a Sasanid term. In the Old Persian inscriptions of the
Achaimenid kings, they call themselves "Xshayathiya Vazraka" [Great
King] Xshayathiya Xshayathiyanam" [King of Kings] - DPa, DPe, etc..

The following are some Old Persian military terms gleamed from
Achaimenid inscriptions:

Arshtbara (spear-bearer, a royal official) - DNc
Arshtika (spearman) -DNb
Asabara (horseman) - DNb
Isuva (battle-axe) - DNd
Ratha (chariot) - DSs
Rathara (charioteer) - DSp
Thanuvaniya (bowman) - DNb [Is Thanuvabaran a made-up word?]
Ushabarim (camel-borne) - DB 1 [so Ushabara for camel-rider]
Vacabara/Vatsabara (bow-bearer, a royal official) - DNd

A really great web site for Achaimenid inscriptions is http://
www.avesta.org/op/op.htm

P.S. I'm not sure that Takabaran is the plural of Takabara in Old
Persian. Martiya is the OP term for man per DB 1, DNa, Db, etc. The
plural is Martiya with a long vowel mark over the final 'a' per DB
1 80, 82 and DSf 47, 49.
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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2005 at 17:23

Peukestas wrote:

"What is the primary source for Takabara and Sparabara meaning
"shieldbearer" in Old Persian? Did a wargamer make them up? [...] Also, did a wargamer make up Artibaran (apple-bearers), Amrtakan
(Immortals), and Huvakan (I don't have any idea what this means, but
I'd be interested to know.)?
"

I've based that on Nick Sekunda' book. As far as I know he's not a wargamer but just a researcher, and I suppose he must be right.  

"Yauna Takabara (hat-
wearing Greeks - maybe the Macedonians) as subjects. In A?P one
of the Artaxerxes also lists the Yauna Takabara. "

As for the Ionians, the word Takabara may not mean hat but a shield, as the former post seem to indicate

You're maybe wright about the plural of the words - that why I iniciated this topic in the first place - and so the plural is, maybe, an extension of the vowel a. I would like some more replies about this, though...

Finally, the "King of Kings"... it will be "Xshayathiya Xshayathiyanam" then!

Thanks!

Sikander

 


 

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  Quote Peukestas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 10:26
Sikander et al,

I have Nick Sekunda's "The Persian Army 560-330 BC".
Unfortunately, he doesn't give any footnotes so it is impossible to
check any particular point! You've got me interested in this matter
though, so I'll check his sources listed at the end of his book. When
I have time!

My understanding of the translation of the Old Persian Yauna
Takabara as 'hat-wearing' Yauna is that it is based upon the Elamite
or Akkadian version which definitely says 'hat'. But don't trust my
memory for that!   I'll have to check to make sure! Stay tuned!

As for the plural of takabara, etc. On page 7-9 of "A Short Grammar
of Old Persian" (1936) by T. Hudson Williams, the declension of an
"a" stem noun is given as follows:

SINGULAR:
Nom. = martiya
Voc. = martiya (long mark on final 'a')
Acc. = martiyam
Gen.-Dat. = martiyahya (long mark on final 'a')

PLURAL:
Nom.-Acc. = martiya (long mark on final 'a')
Gen.-Dat. = martiyanam (long marks on two final 'a')
Ins.-Abl. = martiyaibish

The above is confirmed on pages 58-60 of "Old Persian" (1953) by
Roland G. Kent and at the following web site:
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/depts/lrc/eieol/aveol-7-
X.html#Ave07_GP03

So, it would seem to me that the plural of an "a" stem noun such as
takabara would be takabara (long mark on final 'a') at least in Old
Persian. Would it be takabaran in modern Persian/Farsi?
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  Quote Peukestas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 10:45
Sikander et al,

Oops. I forgot about the title King of Kings. The full title is Great
King, King of Kings, King of Parsa, King of Countries... an
Achaimenid.

When it is abbreviated to a single title it is Xshayathiya Vazraka or
Great King as in XPb, XPc, A1Pa, D2Sa, etc. That is also what the
ancient Greeks called the Persian monarch: basileus megas = Great
King.

So, personally I'd go with Xshayathiya Vazraka (Great King) for the
Achaimenid king.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 13:13

Don't mistake, the title is "Xshyatha Xshyathiy" (Shahanshah/King of Kings), the first "xshyathiya" is part of the name of the king, for example Darius the Great has never called himself simply "Dariush" but "Dariush Shah" (Drayavaush xshyathiya) or "Dariush Shah the Great" (Drayavaush xshyathiya vazraka).

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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 12:09

Wooow!

So, Persian has declinations...! Thats terrible! The only language, with declinations, which I (badly) speak is Russian...

Lets recapitulate:

ShaanSha is New (Sassanid) Persian, right?

And what would be the title for the Achaemenid kings: Xshyatha Xshyathiy or Xshayathiya Vazraka ? Or both, depending on the more or less cerimonial circustance?

You are being of great help. Thanks

Sikander

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  Quote Peukestas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 19:41
Well, personally I don't know where the spelling Xshyatha
Xshyathiy comes from. THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY DIFFERENT
CONVENTIONS IN SUCH THINGS. But the conventional spelling of
King of Kings from Old Persian into English is Xshayathiya
Xshayathiyanam.

Xshayathiya (nominatiive singluar) = king
Xshayathiyanam (genitive plural) = of kings

And as I said in an earlier posting, I prefer Xshayathiya Vazraka
(Great King) for the Achaimenid king for the reasons previously
stated.

I'm guessing that Cyrus Shahmiri is using modern Persian/Farsi
spellings. Another poster suggested that the plural of Takabaka is
Takabaran. I suspect that is modern Persian/Farsi as well. Can the
speakers of modern Persian/Farsi (whichever you prefer) please
clarify?

The following web site is apparently run by Iranians (at least I have
corresponded with a moderator Dr. Zurvan who is Iranian) and uses
the standard spellings that I am using for Old Persian transliterations
into English:
http://iranianlanguages.com/oldiranian/
achamaenid_inscriptions.htm

Actually, I have been a member of a forum on the
iranianlangues.com web site and another forum member referred me
to your discussion. So, that's how I got here!
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2005 at 09:36

You won't find name of an Achaemneian king without "Xshyathiya", as I said the first "Xshyathiya" is in fact a part of the name of the king, another example:

"Adam Krush Xshyathiya Haxmanishiya" (CMa)

I'm Kurush Shah the Achaemenian.

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