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takabara or takabaran?

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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: takabara or takabaran?
    Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 16:00

 

 Hi there!

I have a small question that maybe some of you might know the answer:

"Takabara" means "shield-bearer" or "shield-bearers"? Is it a singular or a plural word?

This question is also valid for any other persian words ending in "bara".

thanks for any replies

 Sikander

 

 

 

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 17:54
My understanding is that "takabara" describes someone wearing a hat. I say that because the Persians called Macedonians as "Yauna Takabara", thus "Greeks wearing hats", a reference to the characteristic Macedonian hat, "Causia"
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 18:24
Takabaran would be plural, Takabara singular.
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  Quote Hushyar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 23:55
Originally posted by Sikander

 

 Hi there!

I have a small question that maybe some of you might know the answer:

"Takabara" means "shield-bearer" or "shield-bearers"? Is it a singular or a plural word?

This question is also valid for any other persian words ending in "bara".

thanks for any replies

 Sikander

Where did you find this name? we don't have such a word in persian.

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2005 at 08:36

But we have Takavar (Commando) and Takavaran (Commandos), however it doesn't relate to "Takabara".

Takavar = Tak(Attack) + Avar (Doer) & Takabar = Taka (Hat/Crown [modern Persian Taj]) + Bar (Bearer)

Of course the suffix "-bar" has different meanings in different words, for example:

Rahbar = Leader [Rah=Way]
Farmanbar = Obedient [Farman=Command]
Payambar = Prophet [Payam=Message]
Delbar = Sweetheart [Del=Heart]
Balabar = Lift (Bala=Up)

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2005 at 09:07
isn't delbar "heart taker"? or heart stealer
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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2005 at 05:05

 

Im sorry, it was my mistake! I too takabara for sparabara...

Anyway, what I really wanted to ask you was if takabara, or sparabara, or thanuvabara, are singular or plural words, i.e., can I say "They are sparabara" (in a plural form) or should I just say "He is a sparbara?" (in the singular form).

That was my question and Zagros have already given me the answer. Thanks!!!

Sikander

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  Quote Hormoz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 23:45
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

But we have Takavar (Commando) and Takavaran (Commandos), however it doesn't relate to "Takabara".

Takavar = Tak(Attack) + Avar (Doer)

Tak doesn't = "solo"?

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 06:18
Tak is attack, taki is solo (correct me if I am wrong).
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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 09:04

 

I'll explain my question:

I'm a wargamer and currently I'm tasked with doing an Achaemenid army list. The problem is that I don't know Iranian, neither Old nor New Persian... Therefore my ask for help.

If you don't mind, I would like to post the army list so that you could correct me (or just state your oppinion).

Best Regards, and thanks for everything

Sikander

 

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 09:21

Tak also means "solo", it relates to "Yak" (one).

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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 09:45

abara -- verb; 3rd person plural imperfect indicative active <bar> 'bear, carry' -- bore

Sparabar = Shield Bearers (SeparBar+/h/n)

Takabar = Solo Bearers/Taka Bearers (TakBar+/h/n))

Sparabara and Takabara both bore shields but in different sizes, Sparabara bore a larger and heavier shield and protected the archers and tactically emphasizing shooting rather than close combat. Takabara bore a smaller and lighter shield which was shaped like a half moon and had variety of roles in a battlefield.

Takabara

Persian Infantryman & Archer of Sparabara

 

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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 09:48

Another Sparabara

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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 10:13

Originally posted by Zagros Purya

Tak is attack, taki is solo (correct me if I am wrong).

This is what I found in Aryanpour dictionary:

Tak = Solo, alone, lonely

Tak = as in takapou/tak+a+pou = Search, running around

Tak = attack, padtak = antiattack.

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 11:23

Takabar = Solo Bearers/Taka Bearers (TakBar+/h/n))

This is an interesting meaning, a light-armed soldier?

Tak = as in takapou/tak+a+pou = Search, running around

That is Tag, it comes from old Persian Tigra which means "fast". Tiz (Sharp), Tiq (Razor), Tir (Arrow) also come from this word.

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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 17:16

 

Huuummm, that Takabara issue is quite interesting... perhaps they could be either medium or light infantry, just like the peltephoroi (or peltast)...

Here follows what I have being doing these last few days -  Cv means Cavalry; Bw means Bowmen; Ed means Edge (swordbearers); Sp is for Spearmen; Cm means camelry; L is light, H is heavy, M is medium, A is (horse) archer, e is elite.

I would realy thank if anyone could correct me or just say anything bour it:

Sikander

 

II/XX Achaemenid Persian 560 BC  329 BC

All Reg Co; Hilly/Aridchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />>>

>>

Huvakan asabāran retinue                              C vMe/CvHe          0-1           0-2           0-3>>

Convert the above to mounted archers    CvMAe/CvHAe                     any>>

Huvakan asabāran                                             CvMe                        0-3           0-6           0-10>>

Convert the above to mounted archers    CvMAe                                      up to >>

Persian, Median, Paphlagonian and Armenian asabāran    CvM   2-5           4-10         6-15>>

Convert the above to light cavalry                   CvL                                              up to >>

Convert the above to mounted archers        CvMA/ CvLA                          up to >>

Bactrian and Arachosian asabāran           CvM/CvL                1-2           2-4           3-6>>

Convert the above to mounted archers          CvLA                                         any>>

Bactrian and Arabian ushabāran                     CmM/CmL               0-2           0-4           0-6>>

Artibāran retinue                                                           SpMe                        0-1           0-2           0-3>>

Amrtakan                                                     SpMe/BwMe        0-2           0-4           0-6>>

Thanuvabāran                                                             BwM                         4-10         8-18         12-24>>

   Convert the above to Thanuvabāran w/ Sparabāran    BwH                                 any>>

Kardakan mercenaries                            BwM/EdM/SpM       2-6           4-12         6-18>>

Downgrade the above to light infantry         SpL/BwL                                                     any>>

Assyrian, Egyptian and Ionian heavy infantry      SpHi                        0-2           0-4           0-6>>

Phoenician, Saka, Median and African marines    SpM/EdM               0-2           0-4           0-6>>

Scythed chariots                                                             Ex                               0-1           0-2           0-3>>

> >

a)       from 519 BC>>

Saka cavalry                                               CvL/CvLA               0-4           0-8           0-12>>

 Convert the above to elite mounted archers         CvLAe                                       up to >>

Indian Kshatryas                                             SpM/EdM               0-2           0-4           0-6>>

Indian bowmen                                                BwM/BwL               0-4           0-8           0-12>>

> >

b)       from 401 BC>>

Convert the Huvakan to cataphract                      CvHe                         0-1           0-2           0-4>>

> >

c)       Between 401 BC 332 BC>>

Hellenic hoplite mercenaries                         SpH     

Hellenic peltephoroi mercenaries                SpM/SpL                 0-2           0-4           0-6>>

> >

d)       Between 375 BC 370 BC>>

Convert the peltephoroi to Iphikratean peltephoroi    PkM                                             any>>

> >

> >

This list covers the armies of the Achaemenid (or Hakhmaniiya) Dynasty begining with the rule of Cyrus the Great, until the Empires conquest by Alexander and his Mecedonian/Hellenic army. In spite of the weakness shown at the Thermopilai, Platea, Marathon, Issus and Gaugamela, to name just a few battles, the fact is that, under the Achaemenid Dynasty, chemas-microsoft-comfficemarttags" />t="on">Persia became the biggest and richest Empire on earth, stretching from the Mediterranean to the Indus and from t="on">Bactria to lace wt="on">Arabialace>.>>

One of the main problem when dealing with the Persians is that most of what we know has been given to us by foreigners, namely the Hellenes. And even though a foreign look may notice otherwise neglected details, nonetheless its still misleading due to lack of information and bad interpretations. That is why we, for instance, know more about the Applebearers and the Immortals, a noticeable minority, than we know about the rest of the army.>>

The Persians organized its military in a decimal structure by which a regiment of a thousand men (hazarabam) was divided into ten satabam of a hundred each, these being also divided into ten databam. Ten hazarabam would in turn compose a baivarabam. Needless to say, the paper strength of each unit was not always maintained.>>

The Persians tactics employed great masses of cavalry in order to break the enemys opposition, and every nobleman was expected to be both a good horseman and a good bowman. The option for converting the cavalry into mounted-archers reflects this training, even if in later years the bow was progressively substituted by the javelin. The ShaanShas (King of Kings) mounted retinue and the elite cavalry baivarabam were made of nobles. After Cyrus defeat at the hands of the Scythians, part of the cavalry seams to have adopted armor, both for the riders and for the horses.>>

The ShaanShas foot retinue were the Artibāran, or Applebearers, because their spears butt resembled a golden apple. The Amrtakan, or Immortals, were an elite baivaraban that was always kept to 10 000 men strong.>>

The main body of the foot were the thanuvabāran (bow-bearers), who were employed en masse to deliver showers of arrows onto the enemy, thus weakening his defences against the Persian cavalry. Sometimes the thanuvabāran put themselves under the protection of the sparabāran (shield-bearers), armed with a short sword or falchion and a spara, a large pavise-like shield. Since the was only one sparabāra for every 10 men in a archer unit, we have given the option for converting the thanuvabāran into BwH. >>

The Kardakan were presumably non-Persian mercenary infantry recruited either to act as garrison troops or as part of the standing field army. Its origins were many: Assyrian, Egyptian, Ethiopian, Indian, Lycian, Median, Phoenician, Semitic, and Saka (although this later origin may also include Bactrians and Sogdians as well) among many others. They seem to have been armed with bows, spears, short swords, falchions, sickles and war axes, and also with shields. The Egyptian and Assyrian are recorded to have used armor.>>

The Hellenes started to be employed right after the conquest of Ionia by the Persians, but their widespread use as mercenaries only started after the First Persian War. These mercenaries became famous after the Ten Thousand led by Xenophon. By 379 BC, the Athenian general Iphikrates led a 20 000 strong contingent of Hellenes, most of whom seem to have been nothing more than peltasts (or peltephoroi). In order to remedy this situation, Iphikrates issued them linen cuirasses, a big, round peltai, and a 3,6m long spear, thus making them the first sarissophoroi in History.>>

After the conquest of Bactria and the submission of the Sakas (a Scythian-like people), contingents of these peoples were widely employed. The Bactrians were famous for their horses and they also used camels as  war mounts. The Sakas fought both as horse-archers and as foot soldiers, although this later fighting style could point to a more sedentary kind of life typical of a Bactrian or Sogdian origin.>>

The last 50 years of the Achaemenid Empire saw it ravaged by internal strife in the way of satrapal rebellions, province secessions, dynastic struggles, regicides and constant palace conspiracies. At this stage, the Empire was ready to pick, and Alexander III of Macedon took charge of this. Against the Hellenic wave, Darius III trusted in his asabāran, his mercenaries and in sheer numbers. But to cope with this, Alexander used to good effect an outstanding army with a sarissophoroi hedgehog and a formidable cavalry,  but most of all, he used is unparalleled genius.>>

> >

> >

Main references:>>

Burns, Paul. The question of Persian cataphract cavalry; Slingshot n 74, November 1977, p. 53>>

Hamblin, William. Whats in a name?: Old Persian military terminology; Slingshot n 109, September 1983, p. 32>>

Head, Duncan. Xerxes Army in Greece, 480-479 BC; Slingshot n 181, September 1995, pp. 12-19>>

Nayker, Adrian. Lost and found in Anatolia; Slingshot n 201, January 1999, pp. 28-29>>

Nikonorov, Valerii. The Armies of Bactria, 700 BC 450 AD; Montvert Publications, 1997>>

Sekunda, Nicholas; McBride, Angus (ill.). The Army of Alexander the Great; Osprey Publishing (Men-at-Arms 148) 1997>>

Sekunda, Nicholas; Chew, Simon (ill.). The Persian Army 560-330 BC; Osprey Publishing (Elite 42) 1992>>

Jvid-moshref, Rmin. The Achaemenid Army; Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies at the School of Oriental & African Studies, University of London>>

 

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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 05:20
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

This is an interesting meaning, a light-armed soldier?

Yes, they were light-armed soldiers.

I'm stucked with the meaning of "taka" again,  because syllabic characters represents either a vowel or a consonant plus a vowel, breaking the word into "tak" + "abara" is not correct/possible the "a" after "k" is a vowel that belongs to "k".


And there is also the Petasos-Wearing Greeks (Yaun takabar) in DNa to think about. Including the hat(Petasos) I think, Greeks also wore half-moon shaped amulets or kept them in their houses as talisman. Maybe "taka" was just the name of the shield or meant half moon or curved shape (just a wild guess).
"Bar" meaning "bear, carry"+ (performing) so if "Yaun takabar" means Petasos-Wearing Greeks than, the verb "to wear" should be another meaning. Can you come up with a word that means "to wear" and includs "bar"?
More words:
br + bar + i/n
kr + bar + i/n
hav + bar + i/n
pish + bar + i/n
far + bar + i/n
tar + bar + i/n
nafar + bar + i/n
darya + bar + i/n
farmn+bar+ i/n
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

That is Tag, it comes from old Persian Tigra which means "fast". Tiz (Sharp), Tiq (Razor), Tir (Arrow) also come from this word.


You are right about that, I looked it up.

I was looking into Achaemenid Royal Inscriptions and it is amazing that many of the words still haven't changed. See some of these words:
asa/asp = asb=horse
asa/aspbar =asbbar=horseman
asman =smn = sky
dasta = dast =hand
drauga = drough = Lie, lie
drayah = dary = sea
dura = dour = far
framana = farmn = command
framatar = farmndr = master, lord, commander
fratara = fartar = further, prior
gam = gm = come, step
ham = ham = with, together
kar = kr = do, make, build
martiya = mard = man
naman = nm = name
pasa = pas = after
pitar = pedar = father
rasta =rst = right, straight
tanu = tan = body, self
tars = tars = fear
vikan = virn = destroy
(x=kh)xrat = xerad = mind, understanding
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  Quote Cent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 06:30

Hmm, some words we also use in the kurdish language!

Many words are also very similar to kurdish.

 

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 06:59

As I said "bara" has different meanings in Persian, for example in DPd Darius the Great says "Auramazd man upastm baratuv" (May Ahuramazda bear me aid) and in DB5 he says "Sak tyaiy xaudm tigrm baratiy" [Tigra means "Pointed/Sharp" here] (Scythians who wear the pointed helmet), of course "bara" doesn't mean "to wear" in Persian because hats are not considered as wearable things. [In modern Persian we say "he has a hat on his head"].

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  Quote Hormoz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 10:45
Originally posted by Yekta

Originally posted by Zagros Purya

Tak is attack, taki is solo (correct me if I am wrong).

This is what I found in Aryanpour dictionary:

Tak = Solo, alone, lonely

Tak = as in takapou/tak+a+pou = Search, running around

Tak = attack, padtak = antiattack.

 

I thought it would make more sense that the meaning of Tak as it is used in Takavar would be single/alone/solo since any soldier attacks, but commandos tend to operate alone or in small groups conducting special operations.

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