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"Slavic settlements in the Balkans"

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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Slavic settlements in the Balkans"
    Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 09:33
Originally posted by vranakonti

Seems to me that we have also a Greek case here.

Its true we have a lot a complexes dear Flipper like every other balkan nation but not the one of calling ourselves  with handsome ancient names.We don’t call ourselves Epirotes,Illyrians or Dardanians or even Albanians.


Well, that is maybe your case and indeed we shouldn't generalize. You know that there are others that do not act like you.


Originally posted by vranakonti

For us,our 200 old years name Shqipetar is more than enough,and we just laugh when we see  modern Macedonians,fighting with modern Greeks,for a name or the new selfmade Epirotes(the guys in that website) asking for half of our territory.



Whenever you hear Epirotes, you think of people living in your area and call it Northern Epirus. Well, i do not call them exclusivelly so... I'm talking about our side of the border mainly. Also, I do not agree on border changes etc in 2008 or 10 or 20...Don't get me wrong.


Originally posted by vranakonti


However I repeat Skanderbeg,did it,not,me,he was called Epirotarum princep,he personally admitted that all his soldiers were epirotes,even the league of the Albanian lords,later known as Albanian was named The Epirotic league.


Well, they lived in that area so...I don't doubt he called them so. Besides, in a time were heroism is needed you need something to unite people and make them proud to refresh their moral.  I find nothing strange with that at all.


Originally posted by vranakonti

Well I f you have any proof that Skanderbeg,had Greek soldiers and he brought them in his Italian campaign, or that he was Greek,or that the participants of the league were instead Greek nobles,hence the name epirot,then please bring us these evidences,and stop throwing hot air with veiled nationalistic posts.



I have never said skanderberg was Greek nor do i care. It is your national hero.


Originally posted by vranakonti


Epirus have a long history,and it wasn’t exclusively Greek,if you are not able to admit it then sorry in my eyes you are not better than your Macedonian neighbours.


Yes, indeed, i don't disagree with that. What I disagree with is people who say Pyrrhus = Albanian, Molossians = Albanians, Illyrians = Epirotic Greek tribe, Albanians = Turks etc. Do you get me know? I'm against all side claims.


Originally posted by vranakonti

And who is the real Epirote Vasil Bollano(in the photo),the Albanian from Tepelena self-declared Greek 10 years ago and that now is seeking independence for his adoptive village(Himara)?

Ps.Indeed you are paying them for being nothing,because for me people changing their identity for a monthly income of 300 euro,are indeed nothing.



Again, I told you when I say Epirotes i don't exclusively mean those of southern Albania. As for the 300 euros a month it is baseless...They can actually get a Green card and work for more money than that. Would you imply that noone in Albania is "northern Epirote"? What happened to the people of the Greek colonies of the past or those who somehow ended up in your side of the borders? Did they simply dissappear or are the fake "northern epirotes" more than the real ones?


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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 17:25
Still hasn't answered if he thinks alexander and aristotle were albanian. I think he does believe that but he doesn't want to admit it because then everyone would regard him like that Petro Ivictus guy. To that I say rest assured, most people already do. But it seems some do not even have the character to stand up for what they believe in.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 08:07
Carp Wolf...Let's not provoke him for no reason mate. Vranakonti is not a P. Inviticus case for sure. 


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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 11:55

I think that your first reply ,was just a misunderstanding , that’s because you selectively quoted a phrase from my post without considering the general context ,the discussion was about Skanderbeg’s letter and that phrase of mine was strictly related to that letter.But also i  i can’t accept your phrase ,”Ask it to the epirotes”, hence my reaction,because for me that name is only an anachronistic revival more political then historically motivated ,especially when it starts with “North”.

 

Well, they lived in that area so...I don't doubt he called them so. Besides, in a time were heroism is needed you need something to unite people and make them proud to refresh their moral.  I find nothing strange with that at all.

 

Thanks for your answer ,is what  i was asking for,from the beginning .In general,i agree with the contents your last post, not on everything though, but this is not the right thread to discuss about.

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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 12:05
No problem... I did not formulate in a good tone eather.


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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 18:59
I just can't think of any other reason why he wouldn't want to answer that simple question. When someone asks me something like that I say yes or no and maybe even follow up to an explination as to why.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 19:08
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Still hasn't answered if he thinks alexander and aristotle were albanian. I think he does believe that but he doesn't want to admit it because then everyone would regard him like that Petro Ivictus guy. To that I say rest assured, most people already do. But it seems some do not even have the character to stand up for what they believe in.
 
I don't understand why this is even a problem or a question that needs to be asked.  Is it not a bit anachronistic to posit that Alexander or Aristotle were anything else but Greek?  They surely were not Persian or Hebrew.  If anything, we may make the distinction that Alexander was the son of Philip of Macedon, so he was a Macedonian Greek in the context of the ancient geographic region that was Macedonia.  Aristotle was from the Chalkidikian peninsula, which was part of greater Greece, and spoke/wrote in the Greek language.  I think it is safe to say that he was Greek as well.
 
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 20:40
Oh I know that. But I do not think that vranakonti knows/thinks that. I simply wanted to know his perspective as to what tone any discussion on similar subjects can be had.
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 11:38

Flipper,i am epirotas (in the contex you know them,even though i call myself albanian,not epirotas)

I know that my family has origines from where river Vjosa starts in Greece,and i know that they came from there about 3 or 4 hundred years ago.Always albanian speakers.
 
As i have consumed this topic before i have told you and given you countless of examples where  land as far as Janina where called Albania.
Every coin and document of Skanderbeg,clearly depicts him as king of Albania and Macedonia,and sometimes Epiros,,Albania.
 
The Arberesh of Italy are a living proof of Albanian roots in Epiros,since they still hold teh Skanderbeg flag and speak the Albanian language.
 
Their folk and traditions which survive today speak of their origines from where today is the Greek state,and for the sake of truth we should not deny this.
 
You still to this day have people in greece which speak albanain.The old Arvanites.
 
 
Find me one single acount of the time that speaks about epirur being Greek?Just one.
 
Every single one speaks of all epirus as being albanian.And even further then Epirus. 
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 12:42
Ok Flipper, you reply. I'm too bored to repeat previous posts and quotes...
 
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My view is that Epirus is a geographical area that has been inhabited by different people, majority being Greek and Albanians. Today Epirus is split, with the shouthern  part in Greece populated by Greeks and the Northern part belogs to Albania and a small Greek minority lives there as well.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 12:56

There is Greek-speakers in southern Albnaia today ,is no denyin.Part of my family are Greek-speakers from NARTA in Vlora,today they live in TRIKALLA in Greece,were they have met many old greek people who still speak Albanian as well.

For many centuries this region has belonged to Albanian-Greek speakers,which by the way have always lived peacefully together untill the creation of the Greek state.The origines of which one was there first none is able to say with certainty.But the fact that they have lived together in this region for so many centuries tells us that it belongs to both of this people,which by the way are the same people.
 
As you mentioned above South of that region now is within the administrative borders of GREECE and the north within the administrative borders of Albania.
 
And thats it.It really should be it.
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 13:09
I know that my family has origines from where river Vjosa starts in Greece,and i know that they came from there about 3 or 4 hundred years ago.Always albanian speakers.
 


First of all, without wanting to sound bad, how do you know this? Cause I lose track of my family tree after the fourth generation back.

You still to this day have people in greece which speak albanain.The old Arvanites.


Second, Arvanites are descendants of Albanians that moved to Greece very long ago, mixed with locals and considered themselves Greeks. Today, only some elderly speak Arvanitan (which obviously comes from Albanian but evolved differently) since tv has erased all local dialects including Tsakonian, Pontian etc.

Third, the Greeks of Epirus and the Albanians were mostly sepherds meaning they traveled from mountain to mountain finding good places for their sheep and goats. So, it's natural that you will find Albanians near Ioannina, there were not barbwires in the borders to stop people. That doesn't make the area Albanian though as finding Greeks up in northern Albania didn't make it Greek.


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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 13:29
Originally posted by Vorian

I know that my family has origines from where river Vjosa starts in Greece,and i know that they came from there about 3 or 4 hundred years ago.Always albanian speakers.
 


First of all, without wanting to sound bad, how do you know this? Cause I lose track of my family tree after the fourth generation back.
 
I lose track of my family tree after that time to.But my grandfather told me that his grandfather had told him thats where we come from originaly.He did not mentioned names of the place,but in Albania we come from a village on river Vjosa (sorry i dont know how you call it in Greek) and my predecesors have left with thier decendants only the fact that we originate from where the river starts in Greece.For sme reasons they apear to have imigrated from thereto this place in Albania.




Third, the Greeks of Epirus and the Albanians were mostly sepherds meaning they traveled from mountain to mountain finding good places for their sheep and goats. So, it's natural that you will find Albanians near Ioannina, there were not barbwires in the borders to stop people. That doesn't make the area Albanian though as finding Greeks up in northern Albania didn't make it Greek.
 
Albanians in Ioannina were a majority,thats the difference,thats what history tell us,that what all the acounts of the time tell us.

Byron,Disraeli,Miss Durham and many others called it the capital of Albania.
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 13:35


You still to this day have people in greece which speak albanain.The old Arvanites.


Second, Arvanites are descendants of Albanians that moved to Greece very long ago, mixed with locals and considered themselves Greeks. Today, only some elderly speak Arvanitan (which obviously comes from Albanian but evolved differently) since tv has erased all local dialects including Tsakonian, Pontian etc.
 
Arvanites today identify themselves as Greeks and are proud to be Greeks.I am not Doubting that.They ceirtanly are a pillar of the Greek nation.They fought for Greece and its ideals.
But even today their language its not Different from Albanian,it might have it regional dialect but is perfectly understandable,specially for southerness like myself.


[/QUOTE]


Edited by HEROI - 25-Jun-2008 at 13:37
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 15:21
God, your quoting system needs dome work it's very strangeLOL

But even today their language its not Different from Albanian,it might have it regional dialect but is perfectly understandable,specially for southerness like myself.


What I was trying to say is that very few Arvanites speak their language nowadays.


Anyway the thread is about Slavic settlements not Albanian ones, we can open a new thread for that!


Edited by Vorian - 25-Jun-2008 at 15:22
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 16:55
Originally posted by HEROI


Every coin and document of Skanderbeg,clearly depicts him as king of Albania and Macedonia,and sometimes Epiros,,Albania.


Ofcourse, but in what language is his stamp written? I'm not saying he was Greek, what i'm saying is that he saw himself as a successor of the Byzantines and refered to Greeks as well.

Originally posted by HEROI


The Arberesh of Italy are a living proof of Albanian roots in Epiros,since they still hold teh Skanderbeg flag and speak the Albanian language.


So are the Grekoi in Italy...And they moved to Italy in archaic years not medieval. So what is your point with all that?

Originally posted by HEROI


Their folk and traditions which survive today speak of their origines from where today is the Greek state,and for the sake of truth we should not deny this.


Why do you make me repeat myself now? Albanians for various reasons in various times (late Byzantine, Ottoman rule) migrated to various regions. So, what is your point again?

Originally posted by HEROI


You still to this day have people in greece which speak albanain.The old Arvanites.


Only elders...Those people came a very long time ago. In Albania you have Greek speakers as well, so again. What is the point of all these?

Originally posted by HEROI


Find me one single acount of the time that speaks about epirur being Greek?Just one.


What time exactly? Be carefull, with me and documents... LOL

Originally posted by HEROI

For many centuries this region has belonged to Albanian-Greek speakers,which by the way have always lived peacefully together untill the creation of the Greek state.


In your case maybe...In our case we lived peacefully with most Albanian groups, except from some those who under Ottoman rule lived well upon our ass (excuse my french). If you talk about the creation of the Greek state after Ottoman rule (and believe that the problem errupted there), then I will show you how deep the rabithole goes, cause where you're getting it at, will take you back to the root of what destroyed the peace of Greeks & Albanians.

If you blame it on the creation of the state, then it is time to see there's history before that Wink


Edited by Flipper - 25-Jun-2008 at 16:59


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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 19:21
Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by HEROI


Every coin and document of Skanderbeg,clearly depicts him as king of Albania and Macedonia,and sometimes Epiros,,Albania.


Of course, but in what language is his stamp written? I'm not saying he was Greek, what i'm saying is that he saw himself as a successor of the Byzantines and refered to Greeks as well.
 
I am talking about the ones writen in Latin,and being succesor of byzantines dont necesarily make one greek,many people were under Byzant,not only Greeks.And is not only stamps,but loads of documents,albanian as well as foreign,and lots of acounts of the time,an opera as well by Vivaldi,and the coins,and the fact that it was in the north of Albania,and the fact that it was elected as part of the aliance of the Albanian princes of different regions to be King.The fact that Albania to this day has the same flag,and the fact that he is the greates figure in Albanian national memory.And many other facts and examples.

Originally posted by HEROI


The Arberesh of Italy are a living proof of Albanian roots in Epiros,since they still hold teh Skanderbeg flag and speak the Albanian language.


So are the Grekoi in Italy...And they moved to Italy in archaic years not medieval. So what is your point with all that?
 
My point with all that wich you did not try to understand is that this Albanian people come from Southern Epiros (some of them) and it proves that Epiros at the time of Skanderbeg at least was inhabited By Albanians,wich means Epirotas does not mean Greek.They emigrated to Italy after Albania fel to the Ottomans.

Originally posted by HEROI


Their folk and traditions which survive today speak of their origines from where today is the Greek state,and for the sake of truth we should not deny this.


Why do you make me repeat myself now? Albanians for various reasons in various times (late Byzantine, Ottoman rule) migrated to various regions. So, what is your point again?
 
My point is that they imigrated from southern region of epiros,and that tells us again that the region was inhabited by Albanians.

Originally posted by HEROI


You still to this day have people in greece which speak albanain.The old Arvanites.


Only elders...Those people came a very long time ago. In Albania you have Greek speakers as well, so again. What is the point of all these?
 
The same point again,that Epiros does not mean Greece,but as i said Greeks and Albanians mostly have inhabited that region for many centuries together,and when Skanderbeg sais he is king of Albania and Epiros that does not make him Greek.

Originally posted by HEROI


Find me one single acount of the time that speaks about epirur being Greek?Just one.


What time exactly? Be carefull, with me and documents... LOL
 
From time of Skanderbeg to the Creation of Greek nationalism.

Originally posted by HEROI

For many centuries this region has belonged to Albanian-Greek speakers,which by the way have always lived peacefully together untill the creation of the Greek state.


In your case maybe...In our case we lived peacefully with most Albanian groups, except from some those who under Ottoman rule lived well upon our ass (excuse my french). If you talk about the creation of the Greek state after Ottoman rule (and believe that the problem errupted there), then I will show you how deep the rabithole goes, cause where you're getting it at, will take you back to the root of what destroyed the peace of Greeks & Albanians.

If you blame it on the creation of the state, then it is time to see there's history before that Wink
 
What destroyed the peace?Greece has been under the Ottoman Empire before Albania,aND THEN THEY HAVE BEEN UNDER THIS EMPIRE TOGETHER FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS.
The fact that fighting between Greeks and Albs happened only in Greece after the indipendence proves what i said.There has never been fighting between Greeks and Albs in Albania,they always lived in peace.So this is the truth.


Edited by HEROI - 25-Jun-2008 at 19:22
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 19:56
What destroyed the peace?Greece has been under the Ottoman Empire before Albania,aND THEN THEY HAVE BEEN UNDER THIS EMPIRE TOGETHER FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS.
The fact that fighting between Greeks and Albs happened only in Greece after the indipendence proves what i said.There has never been fighting between Greeks and Albs in Albania,they always lived in peace.So this is the truth.


That's false. Many times during the Ottoman era, Albanian bands attacked Greeks. I won't call it ethnic confrontation since they also attacked other Albanians and Arvanites. I remember that Kolokotronis the famous Greek general of the Independence had joined arms  (years before the revolution) with a Muslim Arvanite of Moreas to fight other Albanian bands that had ravaged the entire peninsula.
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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 01:00

Yes but this isn't an argument really,since there were also Greek bands.

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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 01:26
Name an event where armed Greeks go around slaughtering everyone BEFORE the Revolution.

There are several occasions when "Turkalvanoi" as the Greeks called them were sent to quell some rebellion and after that continued to destroy the region until the Sultan had to use other forces to put them down.
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