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"Slavic settlements in the Balkans"

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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Slavic settlements in the Balkans"
    Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 16:26
This carpathian wolf user obviosly is just troll.So personally ill not waste my time with him,again.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:41
"Hello, it's the internet era:

Late in the 12th century, the first independent principality of Albania (Arbania) was established on the territory of present-day central Albania, having its capital at Kruja (Krujë). In the sources, the princes, who stood at the head of the small formation, are referred to as Arbëreshes (Arbanians).

The name "Albania" is derived from the same Proto-Indo-European root as "Alps"; an Illyrian tribe of "mountain folk" called the Arber, or Arberesh�, and later Albanoi, lived near Durrës. That is why Albanians are sometimes (very rarely) also called "Arbanians" in the neighboorhood. Personal name "Alban" has probably the same roots."
 
More Albania.com? Albania was a country in 1913 when the Great Powers made it so. The government collapsed within weeks. It was only ever really a country again when Nazi Germany and Facist Italy made it so.
 
 
"Greeks, eh? in what year? Never mind, this is not a way to form an argument, the myths are nowadays known as "greek mythologies" (quite an oxymoron, no?), so one has the modern day media and opinion filled up with false historical ideas. "
 
There is a difference between Greek mythology which tends to explain historical aspects through poetry, and what you know as mythology from Albania which tries to explain a pretext for the goals of the 2nd league of prizren. Don't confuse the two.
 
"You mean "arnaut"?"
 
No, it was different. Arnawutluk.
 
"Carpathian, you proved that you are just ignorant and dont have idea about balcan history...those words are all non-sense and un-true.. has writet from one serbian kidd (forum member) to kidding with other members.

you are worse than kid.

you were one who ask about links (or authors/historian/linguist)...where is yours joke? "
 
Are you going to provide a counter arguement or just insult me?
 
"anyway chechens dont call themself ischeria but Noche and others call them chechens...and others words here are very funny."
 
Really?
 
referred to as Ichkeria, Chechnia, Chechenia or Noxçiyn, is a federal subject of Russia. It is located in the Northern Caucasus mountains, in the Southern Federal District. It borders Stavropol Krai to the northwest, the republic of Dagestan to the northeast and east, Georgia to the south, and the republics of Ingushetia and North Ossetia to the west.
 
 
Check the sources that you yourself use before posting friend. Or else you do silly things like that. :)
 
- First of all, there is absolutely no proof, historic, linguistic or archaeological, that they are descended from Illyrians. The Illyrian origin of the shiptars was first suggested by Austria-Hungary, and for purely practical reasons. The southern Slavs considered themselves descendants of Illyrians prior to WWI (Ilirski pokret), and the Austro-Hungarian empire wanted to preserve its Slavic provinces by convincing Slavs that they are not Illyrians, that some other people (shiptars) are Illyrians.
- The Illyrian language was centum (as is evident by the Messapian fragments), but the shiptar language is satem.
- Modern Greeks can (at least partially) understand ancient Greek. Italians can understand Latin. Slavs can understand old church Slavonic. shiptars, however, cannot understand a single word of Illyrian.
- All old toponyms in Albania are either Slavic (Serbian) or Greek. The few shiptar toponyms in Albania sound very much like certain toponyms in the Caucasus region
- There is no evidence of any ancient Greek or Latin borrowings in the shiptar language, suggesting that they were not in contact with these ancient civilizations, which is an impossibility considering their location.
- The Illyrians were well known seafarers and fishermen, yet ALL words related to the sea in the shiptar language are borrowed either from Slavic or from (modern) Greek.
 
======================
 
You know what the funny thing is? I'm throwing arguements counter your beliefs to see how you can defend them and instead of doing that you insult me, and all albanians here start whining about "oh serbs serbs serbs". Serbs have more relation to the caucaus mountains! What does that have to do with Albanians? Why is it that any time someone brings up a discussion like this you all get so defensive and start insulting people and bringing up the "big bad serbs." Oh boohoo the serbs lied about us! You're a troll! You're a Serb troll boohoo!
 
What the heck is that? You're just frustrated that your fantasy world invented by Xoxza is being questioned so you fall back on the usual knee jerk reaction racist slander against Serbs that you are so accusomed to.


Edited by Carpathian Wolf - 14-Jun-2008 at 17:52
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  Quote Scanderbeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 22:00
There is a difference between Greek mythology which tends to explain historical aspects through poetry, and what you know as mythology from Albania which tries to explain a pretext for the goals of the 2nd league of prizren. Don't confuse the two.
 

Bravo, it would be much more satirical if you understood my comment in the first place, but hey can't say you tried your best.

Albania was a country in 1913 when the Great Powers made it so. The government collapsed within weeks. It was only ever really a country again when Nazi Germany and Facist Italy made it so.

And someone is so denying that, because...? We weren't discussing about the modern country (*a recognized state, if you will), but about the name "albania/arberia", surely about the Arbëreshët as well.

No, it was different. Arnawutluk.

Basically the same thing, the thing is you cannot articulate neither of those words, that's why you confuse them for being a different one (also referring to those chechen=albanian relations, highly acknowledged by you)

ARNAUT - An inhabitant of Albania and neighboring mountainous regions, specif. one serving as a soldier in the Turkish army.(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Arnaut)

Arnawutluk - The Turkish name for Albania. (http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/quran/albanian/arnautlluk.htm)





Edited by Scanderbeg - 14-Jun-2008 at 22:02
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 23:57
"Bravo, it would be much more satirical if you understood my comment in the first place, but hey can't say you tried your best."
 
It is obvious all you can do is insult people. A true testament to your up bringing. I just hope you are an exception rather then a norm, but so far I don't have any reason to believe that.
 
"And someone is so denying that, because...? We weren't discussing about the modern country (*a recognized state, if you will), but about the name "albania/arberia", surely about the Arbëreshët as well."

I was bringing up how for a long period of time no one mentions Illyria and then all of the sudden there is an Albania and then it becomes an actual country at the start of the 20th century.
 
"Basically the same thing, the thing is you cannot articulate neither of those words, that's why you confuse them for being a different one (also referring to those chechen=albanian relations, highly acknowledged by you)

ARNAUT - An inhabitant of Albania and neighboring mountainous regions, specif. one serving as a soldier in the Turkish army.(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Arnaut)

Arnawutluk - The Turkish name for Albania. (http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/quran/albanian/arnautlluk.htm)"
 
Arnawultuk means "those who did not return" IIRC refering to how the Albanians that were placed in the Balkans did not return to their homeland in the caucasian mountains. I think my examples of similarity between the Chechnian language and the Albanian one was good enough proof. There doesn't seem to be any Albanian influence on the countries around Albania. And if they were Illyrian they would have had thousands of years to place some sort of imprint. On the other hand the Albanian language has a few Thracian elements to it, Greek and of course latin (more accuratly italian).
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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 00:40

I hope moderators will do smth for the user called Carpathian wolf,that clearly is just provoking Albanians in this forum,with his trolling.Also in his last post he brought quotes from Serbian nationalist websites were Albanians were called with the racist and offensive therm Shiptar.

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shiptar

 

I have to reply to him because I can’t just let him spreading his load of crap in this forum.

 

 

 

 

More Albania.com? Albania was a country in 1913 when the Great Powers made it so. The government collapsed within weeks. It was only ever really a country again when Nazi Germany and Facist Italy made it so.

 

 

Albanian.what? How is this relevant to the topic,however,Albania became a country on 28 november 1912,and was recognized by the Great Powers in 1913.We existed as relatively normal ,state, then the system collapsed during ww1.In the Paris peace conference that followed our sovereignty  was reaffirmed thanks to the president Wilson stance,in despite of the London secret pact,signed during the war were was decided the partition of Albania between Serbia,Greece and Italy.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Albania

 

 

Oh great a wiki link.

 

 

 There is a difference between Greek mythology which tends to explain historical aspects through poetry, and what you know as mythology from Albania which tries to explain a pretext for the goals of the 2nd league of prizren. Don't confuse the two.

 

Please man less,chit chat and more facts.

Do you have any problem with Albanians?Again with this 2nd league of prizren,and you just throw it around,if you want to discuss WW2 events in Kosova and Albanian just open a topic,and ill be glad to answer you there.

 

 

"You mean "arnaut"?"

 

No, it was different. Arnawutluk.

 

By pointing this do you finally have a point,or like in the case of Scotlands ancient name,you are just pulling whool over our eyes.Are you suggesting that Turks used the latin letters an and wrote that word with W.

Btw thanks for pointing it,turks called us after the Greek version of the name Albanian,precisely Arvanite.Albanians,Arber,Arben,Arberesh,Albanesi,Albanian,Arbanites are all variants of the same name.

As about the variant Arbër,is the tosk (south) Albanian variant of that name.

 

 

Are you going to provide a counter arguement or just insult me?

 

We need an Argument of yours first.

 

"anyway chechens dont call themself ischeria but Noche and others call them chechens...and others words here are very funny."

 

Really?

 

referred to as Ichkeria, Chechnia, Chechenia or Noxçiyn, is a federal subject of Russia. It is located in the Northern Caucasus mountains, in the Southern Federal District. It borders Stavropol Krai to the northwest, the republic of Dagestan to the northeast and east, Georgia to the south, and the republics of Ingushetia and North Ossetia to the west.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya

 

Oh great another wiki link.

Did you read your list of words,were was this supposed similarity,indeed I sow much more similarity between English and Checenian.

 

 

  

-         First of all, there is absolutely no proof, historic, linguistic or archaeological, that they are descended from Illyrians. The Illyrian origin of the shiptars was first suggested by Austria-Hungary, and for purely practical reasons. The southern Slavs considered themselves descendants of Illyrians prior to WWI (Ilirski pokret), and the Austro-Hungarian empire wanted to preserve its Slavic provinces by convincing Slavs that they are not Illyrians, that some other people (shiptars) are Illyrians.

 

You are so eager to distance yourself from serbs but yet you use only Serbian sources.How I understand that,well dear troll the word Shiptar (without Q) is a Serbian derogatory and racist term, banned during Titos times and returned in use with Milloshevic.So I hope moderators will do smth for this insult.

And why do you care how western slavs called themselves prior to ww1,important is how they consider themselves today.

Surely you don’t know that many the supporters of the Albanian-Illyrian link are croats like Milan Shuflay,or Aleksander  Stipcevic.

Here you have an article from Stipcevic,its not a book,though I doubt you are going to read It anyway.

 

http://www.trepca.net/english/2006/the_question_of_illyrian_albanian_continuity_by_prof_aleksander_stipcevic.htm

 

some quotes from it:

 

Dr. Aleksander STIPCEVIC
( Professor - University of Zagreb - Croatia )

 

The question of the ethnic and cultural continuity between the early Illyrians and the mediaeval Albanians, besides being one of the most attractive issues of Balkan history, has also acquired a political dimension in recent decades. This is not the first time such a thing has happened in history.

 

 

It was the Croats who before anyone else put forward the claim of being descended from the glorious Illyrian people, to the point of identifying themselves with them and giving themselves the name of Illyrians. For centuries, the Croatian language was simply called Illyrian. It is thought that Vinko Pribojevic (Vincentius Priboevius) in the 16th century was the first to include the history of the Illyrians in what might be called a political program.

 

After him, Mauro Orbini, another Croat historian, relaunched the pan-Slavic idea in his well-known book, "Il Regno degli Slavi, hoggi corrottamente detti Schiavoni," published in Pesaro in 1601. The book met with great success and exerted a major influence on historians and politicians of subsequent centuries. Now nobody doubted that the Slavs, especially those of the western portion of the Balkan peninsula, were the direct descendants of the Illyrians.

 

As time passed, the idea of a direct link between the Illyrians and the Croats was graduallyabandoned. It was the writer and philologist Bogoslav Sulek who delivered the final blow to the theory of the Illyrian origin of the South Slavs. In 1844, he published a treatise on the idea that the South Slavs could not be considered the direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians, but that the Slavs living in the western part of the Balkan peninsula were the result of a long and complicated ethnogenetic process involving the Illyrians but also the Romans, Celts, Goths, and, finally, the Slavs

 

It was in the second half of the 19th century and especially in the 20th century that the Illyrian problem acquired a political meaning for another Balkan people, the Albanians

The large amount of research in recent decades has thus made it much easier today to tackle the problem of the ethnic origins of the Albanians than 50 or 100 years ago. The result achieved by workers in different disciplines in recent decades have reduced the importance of the work that relied on now obsolete linguistc evidence, and have made the autochthony of the Albanians, i.e. increasingly indisputable.

This conflict between new scientific result and the defenders of now obsolete theories is a phenomenon that can be explained by the increasing politicisation of the issue of Albanian ethnogenesis. In fact, the theory of Albanian autochthony has never been disputed with such determination and savagery as today, precisely when so much scientific proof has been produced in its support.

 

-         The Illyrian language was centum (as is evident by the Messapian fragments), but the shiptar language is satem.

 

Its not sure that Illyrians is centum as its not sure that Albanian is satem.There are not enough data’s from Illyrian to say that.The idea of Illyrian being centum,started after the venetian iscriptions,at the time these people were considered of Illyrian stock.It was just a misunderstanding since at the present time the Veneti are considered celts thus not Illyrians.So stop using out of date arguments.

Ps-“Thanks” for insulting me again "Shiptar".

 

 

-         Modern Greeks can (at least partially) understand ancient Greek. Italians can understand Latin. Slavs can understand old church Slavonic. shiptars, however, cannot understand a single word of Illyrian.

     

How do you know that Albanians can’t understand Illyrian?Do you have any Illyrian text to make the confrontation?There are only few Illyrian words known,explanble only with our language.So your and you racist text,are lying.

 

 


- All old toponyms in Albania are either Slavic (Serbian) or Greek. The few shiptar toponyms in Albania sound very much like certain toponyms in the Caucasus region

Our toponymes indeed are Slavic(Bulgarian),also belgrade is a bulgarian toponym,and Greek,but also latin,Turkish and of course Albanian.Its not hard to understand why Albanian and its inhabitants were part of the Roman,Bulgarian,Byzantine,and Ottoman empire,and also of Serbian,and those names are simly rests of these invasions.

 

 

-         There is no evidence of any ancient Greek or Latin borrowings in the shiptar language, suggesting that they were not in contact with these ancient civilizations, which is an impossibility considering their location.

 

That’s  incorrect,Albanian is full of ancient and Latin borrowings.

-          

-          

-        
- The Illyrians were well known seafarers and fishermen, yet ALL words related to the sea in the shiptar language are borrowed either from Slavic or from (modern) Greek.

 

Cosatal Illyrians were known as fishermans,and this prior to the Roman invasion,its influence was stronger in the coastal areas.And  the couse of our survivor was exactly our relief,made of high mountines.But you are again wrong because our marine vocabulary was borrowed mostly from Romans not modern Greeks.

 

Example:

Fish-Peshk- piscis

Fisherman-Peshkatar- piscator

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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 00:46
I'll edit my post. First off I didn't know siptar was a derogatory term. I thought it was just an alternate spelling.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 01:03
"Albanian.what? How is this relevant to the topic,however,Albania became a country on 28 november 1912,and was recognized by the Great Powers in 1913.We existed as relatively normal ,state, then the system collapsed during ww1.In the Paris peace conference that followed our sovereignty  was reaffirmed thanks to the president Wilson stance,in despite of the London secret pact,signed during the war were was decided the partition of Albania between Serbia,Greece and Italy."
 
You keep using the same source. A website that claims alexander and aristotle were actually albanian. I don't like wiki either but in this instance they are correct so why are you making comments about wiki? If they are incorrect challenge it. If not stick to the points.
 
"Please man less,chit chat and more facts.

Do you have any problem with Albanians?Again with this 2nd league of prizren,and you just throw it around,if you want to discuss WW2 events in Kosova and Albanian just open a topic,and ill be glad to answer you there."

Do you have a problem with Greeks and Serbs that you need to randomly bring them up?

"

By pointing this do you finally have a point,or like in the case of Scotlands ancient name,you are just pulling whool over our eyes.Are you suggesting that Turks used the latin letters an and wrote that word with W.

Btw thanks for pointing it,turks called us after the Greek version of the name Albanian,precisely Arvanite.Albanians,Arber,Arben,Arberesh,Albanesi,Albanian,Arbanites are all variants of the same name.

As about the variant Arbër,is the tosk (south) Albanian variant of that name."

 
Scotland's ancient name was Alba, not Albania. Alba is a gailic word.
 
The Turkish word means "those who did not return."
 
"Oh great another wiki link.

Did you read your list of words,were was this supposed similarity,indeed I sow much more similarity between English and Checenian."

 
Yes wiki link, if it's bad challenge it.
 
Not my problem if you saw more similarities between checnian and english.
 
"

You are so eager to distance yourself from serbs but yet you use only Serbian sources.How I understand that,well dear troll the word Shiptar (without Q) is a Serbian derogatory and racist term, banned during Titos times and returned in use with Milloshevic.So I hope moderators will do smth for this insult.

And why do you care how western slavs called themselves prior to ww1,important is how they consider themselves today.

Surely you don’t know that many the supporters of the Albanian-Illyrian link are croats like Milan Shuflay,or Aleksander  Stipcevic.

Here you have an article from Stipcevic,its not a book,though I doubt you are going to read It anyway."


How do you know the source is Serbian or whatever? Why do you keep blaming serbs and bringing them up. Again i don't care about your nationalistic angst.
 
I'm not saying the croats are direct descendents of the Illyrians but probably just as close as the Albanians are, probably less since Albanians arrived a few hundred years later in the Balkans.
 
"Its not sure that Illyrians is centum as its not sure that Albanian is satem.There are not enough data’s from Illyrian to say that.The idea of Illyrian being centum,started after the venetian iscriptions,at the time these people were considered of Illyrian stock.It was just a misunderstanding since at the present time the Veneti are considered celts thus not Illyrians.So stop using out of date arguments."
 
Says you...
 
"How do you know that Albanians can’t understand Illyrian?Do you have any Illyrian text to make the confrontation?There are only few Illyrian words known,explanble only with our language.So your and you racist text,are lying."
 
Well can you?
 
"That’s  incorrect,Albanian is full of ancient and Latin borrowings."
 
You mean Italian borrowings.
 
"

Cosatal Illyrians were known as fishermans,and this prior to the Roman invasion,its influence was stronger in the coastal areas.And  the couse of our survivor was exactly our relief,made of high mountines.But you are again wrong because our marine vocabulary was borrowed mostly from Romans not modern Greeks.

 

Example:

Fish-Peshk- piscis

Fisherman-Peshkatar- piscator"

What's the greek variant for those words? ;)
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 04:19
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

 
"anyway chechens dont call themself ischeria but Noche and others call them chechens...and others words here are very funny."
 
Really?
 
referred to as Ichkeria, Chechnia, Chechenia or Noxçiyn, is a federal subject of Russia. It is located in the Northern Caucasus mountains, in the Southern Federal District. It borders Stavropol Krai to the northwest, the republic of Dagestan to the northeast and east, Georgia to the south, and the republics of Ingushetia and North Ossetia to the west.
 
 
 
Chechens call themselves Nohchi or Vainakh; "Chechen" as well as "Ichkeria" are just the names originally used by Russians.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 05:12
Ichkeria doesn't sound like a slavic word let alone russian. Could I see a source please?
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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 06:13
 
You keep using the same source. A website that claims alexander and aristotle were actually albanian. I don't like wiki either but in this instance they are correct so why are you making comments about wiki? If they are incorrect challenge it. If not stick to the points.
 
Are you kiding,you think i need some doubtful website to speak about my country?
 
But if you want a source here it is Britannica:
 

To prevent the annihilation of the country, Albanian national delegates met at a congress in Vlorë. They were led by Ismail Qemal, an Albanian who had held several high positions in the Ottoman government. On Nov. 28, 1912, the congress issued the Vlorë proclamation, which declared Albania’s independence.

The war plunged the country into a new crisis, as the armies of Austria-Hungary, France, Italy, Greece, Montenegro, and Serbia invaded and occupied it. Left without any political leadership or authority, the country was in chaos, and its very fate hung in the balance. At the Paris Peace Conference after the war, the extinction of Albania was averted largely through the efforts of U.S. President Woodrow Wilson, who vetoed a plan by Britain, France, and Italy to partition Albania among its neighbours.
 
A national congress, held in Lushnje in January 1920, laid the foundations of a new government. In December of that year Albania, this time with the help of Britain, gained admission to the League of Nations, thereby winning for the first time international recognition as a sovereign nation and state.
 
Do you have a problem with Greeks and Serbs that you need to randomly bring them up?
 
Dude i said please man less...etc etc.Were did i mentioned Greeks or Serbs?Is there any hope te see a reply of yours that actually makes some sense.

 

Scotland's ancient name was Alba, not Albania. Alba is a gailic word.
The Turkish word means "those who did not return."
 
Just make some research and you will see that variants like Alban,or Albion are related to that same area.And i mentioned that on purpouse because among the many strange theories about Albanians,builded up by you know who,is that of a migration from Scotland,for more read N.Malcom.It was based also on the many similar customs of the two people.Of course now it is laughable,exactly as the Caucasian Albania theory,
 
the earliest-known name for the island of Britain. It was used by ancient Greek geographers from the 4th century bc and even earlier, who distinguished “Albion” from Ierne (Ireland) and from smaller members of the British Isles. The Greeks and Romans probably received the name from the Gauls or the Celts. The name Albion has been translated as “white land”; and the Romans explained it as referring to the chalk cliffs at Dover (Latin albus, “white”).
 
source britannica
 
And oh,that "those who didn't return" is actually very romantic,but have you any source to back it?Do you have any source at all?
 
 
Yes wiki link, if it's bad challenge it.
 
Not my problem if you saw more similarities between checnian and english.
 
Another user did it for me,so im not going to repeat it again.Ishcheria is how Russians call them.And just a little correction,this kind of confrontation should be maded with the arcaic form of the name so the correct name for Albania should ne Shkipni,not Shqipëri(the modern standart form) or Shqipteria(the nonexistend form invented from you).Now if for you Shqipni is the same or similar with Ischeria(a russian word not even checenian),i think you,have problems not me.

How do you know the source is Serbian or whatever? Why do you keep blaming serbs and bringing them up. Again i don't care about your nationalistic angst.
 
I'm not saying the croats are direct descendents of the Illyrians but probably just as close as the Albanians are, probably less since Albanians arrived a few hundred years later in the Balkans.
 
How do i know?are you serious,i explained it in my previous post,there was a heavy Serbian insult,inside,Shiptar,and obviosly your are nothing more than a spokeman of their propaganda.
I brought here an article writted by a croatian historian,and you only your very "personal" "thoughts".But as i can see with you a serious debate is impossible.
 
 
 
The lands where the Croats would settle and establish their state lay just within the borders of the western Roman Empire. In the 6th and 7th centuries ad, Slavs arrived in the western Balkans, settling on Byzantine territory along the Adriatic and in the hinterland and gradually merging with the indigenous Latinized population.
 
source britannica
 
 Says you...
 
well at least i say smth instead of trolling around.
 
 
Well can you?
 
You think Italians can understand latin?
The origins of the Albanian people are not definitely known, but data drawn from history and from linguistic, archaeological, and anthropological studies have led to the conclusion that Albanians are the direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians and that the latter were natives of the lands they inhabited. Similarly, the Albanian language derives from the language of the Illyrians, the transition from Illyrian to Albanian apparently occurring between the 4th and 6th centuries ad. (Some scholars, however, dispute such theses, arguing that Illyrians were not autochthonous and that Albanian derives from a dialect of the now-extinct Thracian language.)
ps.No caucasian mentioned. 
 
source Britannica
 
You mean Italian borrowings.
 
The very large number of Latin words in Albanian form part of the basic vocabulary of the language (including kinship terms) and cover such spheres as religion, although some of them may have been later borrowings from Romanian. In some cases the Latin words found in Albanian have survived in no other part of the former Roman Empire. Greek and Slavic languages have comparatively few Latin words, many of them administrative or commercial in character.
 
source.Britannica
 

 

Example:

Fish-Peshk- piscis

Fisherman-Peshkatar- piscator"

What's the greek variant for those words? ;)
 
psari, psarevo,psaras
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 06:46
"
Are you kiding,you think i need some doubtful website to speak about my country?"
 
I never denied the creation of your country being 1912. I made the statement that you use the same site over and over in regards to something else. You don't even know what you are argueing against.
 
"Dude i said please man less...etc etc.Were did i mentioned Greeks or Serbs?Is there any hope te see a reply of yours that actually makes some sense."
 
Above you keep mentioning Serb/Greek propaganda. I'm neither Serb or Greek. So I ask again why do you keep bringing them up?
 
"Just make some research and you will see that variants like Alban,or Albion are related to that same area.And i mentioned that on purpouse because among the many strange theories about Albanians,builded up by you know who,is that of a migration from Scotland,for more read N.Malcom.It was based also on the many similar customs of the two people.Of course now it is laughable,exactly as the Caucasian Albania theory,"
 
I don't see how the name Albion or Alba bring of Scotland brings any weight to your arguement. Neither one is Albania, like the country in the Caucasian mountains.
 
"And oh,that "those who didn't return" is actually very romantic,but have you any source to back it?Do you have any source at all?"
 
Perhaps we can find a Turk or two on these forums to ask?
 
"
Another user did it for me,so im not going to repeat it again.Ishcheria is how Russians call them.And just a little correction,this kind of confrontation should be maded with the arcaic form of the name so the correct name for Albania should ne Shkipni,not Shqipëri(the modern standart form) or Shqipteria(the nonexistend form invented from you).Now if for you Shqipni is the same or similar with Ischeria(a russian word not even checenian),i think you,have problems not me."

And I already replied to that too. Shqiperia has also been used, or at least according to the Albanians i've spoken to.
 
Albania, officially the Republic of Albania (Albanian Republika e Shqipërisë pronounced [ɾɛˈpublika ɛ ʃcipəˈɾiːs], or simply Shqipëria) is a country in South Eastern Europe.
 
 
Yep, so it IS used. Now are you lying or do you just not know what your country is called?
 
"How do i know?are you serious,i explained it in my previous post,there was a heavy Serbian insult,inside,Shiptar,and obviosly your are nothing more than a spokeman of their propaganda."
 
I'll be honest the Albanian language is strange for my ear and for me to spell. So I wasn't even aware it was a deragetory term. I just thought it was an alternate spelling and it was easier for me to key in. If you want to hammer on that fine by me, but I think it shows that your arguement is weak and you have to focus on ad hominems.
 
"
I brought here an article writted by a croatian historian,and you only your very "personal" "thoughts".But as i can see with you a serious debate is impossible."
 
Could you reword this so that it makes sense?
 
"well at least i say smth instead of trolling around."

How am I trolling? I'm just trying to have a discussion about the origin of a people in the Balkans. I couldn't care less if you were Illyrian or not. Personally Illyrian history isn't even all that interesting or awe inspiring. They were pirates, then conquored by the Macedonians, by the Romans and later if they even remained, by the slavs. I think Caucasian Albania has a much richer history, one of the first Christian Kingdoms and fought to the last against the numerous saracen armies side by side with Armenia.
 
"You think Italians can understand latin?"

Quite a bit actually. I do too as a Romanian understand quite a bit of latin. I'm not fluent but many of the words are similar and the latin grammar is the same as the Romanian grammar.
 
"
The origins of the Albanian people are not definitely known, but data drawn from history and from linguistic, archaeological, and anthropological studies have led to the conclusion that Albanians are the direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians and that the latter were natives of the lands they inhabited. Similarly, the Albanian language derives from the language of the Illyrians, the transition from Illyrian to Albanian apparently occurring between the 4th and 6th centuries ad. (Some scholars, however, dispute such theses, arguing that Illyrians were not autochthonous and that Albanian derives from a dialect of the now-extinct Thracian language.)
ps.No caucasian mentioned. "

Yea because the Germans invented your history in the 17th century and Xaxzo was more then happy to go along with it. For hundreds of years there is no mention of either Illyrians or Albanians in the Balkans. I don't see how you can claim a continuity and it seems for the most part (to my surprise actually) most of the people on the forum here see it the same.
 
"psari, psarevo,psaras"

Quite similar to the Greek I would say. And Greek and Latin have several things in common. Now i'd like for you to prove to me that first off the Albanians got those sea terms via latin as opposed to Greek, and next how you can tell it is latin as opposed to italian.
 
Should be interesting.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 09:07
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Ichkeria doesn't sound like a slavic word let alone russian. Could I see a source please?
 
I can give you the source without problem, but I'm afraid you don't know Russian in order to comprehend what it says. Ichkeria is just a name of small area near Dagestan, due to some confusion it became associated with the whole territory of Chechnia during the war for the conquest of Caucasus in the 19th century. Chechnia itself comes from the name of the Chechen village called "Chechen-aul" which later also became another name for the whole Chechnia among Russians.
 
Of course both of the words are not Russian in origin, but the point is that those words historically were never used by Chechens as a designation for their own land or people. Chechens call themselves Nohchi, or Vainakh (Vainakh includes Ingushs besides the Chechens BTW) .
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 09:35
But there IS a region there by that name right?
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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 13:48

I never denied the creation of your country being 1912. I made the statement that you use the same site over and over in regards to something else. You don't even know what you are argueing against.

 

Of what website are you talking about??Can you provide me the part where I used it?Your reply was directed to the part where I wrote about our independence ,that you questioned ,and the Britannica quote was saying exactly what I said at the beginning.

 

 

Above you keep mentioning Serb/Greek propaganda. I'm neither Serb or Greek. So I ask again why do you keep bringing them up?

 

No,don’t invent things,you was answering to a part of my post where Serbs or Greeks weren’t mentioned.And how did you come out with this,in never mentioned Greek in this debate.

 

 

I don't see how the name Albion or Alba bring of Scotland brings any weight to your arguement. Neither one is Albania, like the country in the Caucasian mountains.

 

 

And what about Ptolemys map where the Albanoi tribe is mentioned exactly in the same territory of modern Albania?And do you know that next to caucasian Albania,theres caucasian Iberia.What know spaniards are actually caucasians settled in modern territory of spain by the Arab invasior?

 

 

Perhaps we can find a Turk or two on these forums to ask?

 

Perhaps you will provide us a source…finally.Wink

 



And I already replied to that too. Shqiperia has also been used, or at least according to the Albanians i've spoken to.

 

Albania, officially the Republic of Albania (Albanian Republika e Shqipërisë pronounced [ɾɛˈpublika ɛ ʃcipəˈɾiːs], or simply Shqipëria) is a country in South Eastern Europe.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania

 

Yep, so it IS used. Now are you lying or do you just not know what your country is called?

 

No its just you that don’t know what are you are talking about.Shqiperia is the standart Albanian(1972) form,based on the south Albania dialect.The north Albanian variant is Shqipni.North Albanian is closer to old Albanian,and due to its isolation has preserved the original forms of the names, instead  south Albanian is just an evolution of it.

Every linguist here can explain you the transformation of N in R durind the evolution of a Language.And as about Q it has a slightly different sound from K and is a typical south Albanian sound,that elder people in the north can’t even pronounce.So as i said to make the comparation you should use the name Shkipni instead of the modern Shqiperia.You  used Shqipteria btw,that clearly is an invented name.

 

 

I'll be honest the Albanian language is strange for my ear and for me to spell. So I wasn't even aware it was a deragetory term. I just thought it was an alternate spelling and it was easier for me to key in. If you want to hammer on that fine by me, but I think it shows that your arguement is weak and you have to focus on ad hominems.

 

It just reveals where your sources come from,and also a characteristic of yours,you don’t verify your own sources.

 

 

Could you reword this so that it makes sense?

 

No im not.

 

"well at least i say smth instead of trolling around."

How am I trolling? I'm just trying to have a discussion about the origin of a people in the Balkans. I couldn't care less if you were Illyrian or not. Personally Illyrian history isn't even all that interesting or awe inspiring. They were pirates, then conquored by the Macedonians, by the Romans and later if they even remained, by the slavs. I think Caucasian Albania has a much richer history, one of the first Christian Kingdoms and fought to the last against the numerous saracen armies side by side with Armenia.

 

You are trolling,even now.

 

Quite a bit actually. I do too as a Romanian understand quite a bit of latin. I'm not fluent but many of the words are similar and the latin grammar is the same as the Romanian grammar.

 

Quite a bit is not the same,of understanding it.

 



Yea because the Germans invented your history in the 17th century and Xaxzo was more then happy to go along with it. For hundreds of years there is no mention of either Illyrians or Albanians in the Balkans. I don't see how you can claim a continuity and it seems for the most part (to my surprise actually) most of the people on the forum here see it the same.

 

 

Who is xaxzo?

I thought Austrians invented it,and now Germas?C’mon be serious.

 

"psari, psarevo,psaras"

Quite similar to the Greek I would say. And Greek and Latin have several things in common. Now i'd like for you to prove to me that first off the Albanians got those sea terms via latin as opposed to Greek, and next how you can tell it is latin as opposed to italian.

 

If for you peshkatar is more similar to psaras than piscator,than let it be so.Wink

 

Ti Shqipri m ep nder...
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 19:12
"Of what website are you talking about??Can you provide me the part where I used it?Your reply was directed to the part where I wrote about our independence ,that you
questioned ,and the Britannica quote was saying exactly what I said at the beginning."
 
You used albania.com earlier. That's the site.
 
"No,don’t invent things,you was answering to a part of my post where Serbs or Greeks weren’t mentioned.And how did you come out with this,in never mentioned Greek in this debate."
 
-_- it's on the last page. I can't be bothered to open two windows and get it for you. If you want you can go look for it yourself, if not I don't care. No relevance to the discussion at all what so ever.
 
"And what about Ptolemys map where the Albanoi tribe is mentioned exactly in the same territory of modern Albania?And do you know that next to caucasian Albania,theres caucasian Iberia.What know spaniards are actually caucasians settled in modern territory of spain by the Arab invasior?"
 
Again you don't call yourself Albanoi or Albanian. There's a difference between Iberia and the Iberian peninsula. Just like there is a difference between Alba and Albania.
 
"

No its just you that don’t know what are you are talking about.Shqiperia is the standart Albanian(1972) form,based on the south Albania dialect.The north Albanian variant is Shqipni.North Albanian is closer to old Albanian,and due to its isolation has preserved the original forms of the names, instead  south Albanian is just an evolution of it.

Every linguist here can explain you the transformation of N in R durind the evolution of a Language.And as about Q it has a slightly different sound from K and is a typical south Albanian sound,that elder people in the north can’t even pronounce.So as i said to make the comparation you should use the name Shkipni instead of the modern Shqiperia.You  used Shqipteria btw,that clearly is an invented name. "

Ooooh right old Albanian. ;) Gotcha.

Wherever it came from it is similar to the checnyan one as well as the words have their similarities.
 
"It just reveals where your sources come from,and also a characteristic of yours,you don’t verify your own sources."
 
Or it shows a carelessness for the spelling?
 
"Who is xaxzo?"

Ever Hoxza my mistake. ;)
 
"I thought Austrians invented it,and now Germas?C’mon be serious."
 
A german historian, but i said that the austro hungarians used it as a designation for croats/serbs/ everyone in the west balkans.
 
"If for you peshkatar is more similar to psaras than piscator,than let it be so.Wink"
 
I'm just saying that both words are related because Greek/Latin do have several relations. But perhaps you can prove how it is latin orignally as opposed to italian.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 19:37

I just googled something random to play devil's advocate to see how you argue your points. I'm trying to get convinced one way or another but so far i'm getting more insults then facts.

Please don't get yourself banned, I actually do want to eventually have a discussion concerning the wars in the Balkans.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 23:03

GoldenBlood, this is a flagrant breach of the AE Code of Conduct.  Since it is clear that either you have not read, or are ignoring the Code, here it is:

 
Also, notice that you have received an official warning for your efforts:
 
 
Everyone taking part in this thread and others of this nature, take heed of the warning and keep in mind that the mods are making sure civility is observed.  If you cannot post in these types of threads without causing flame wars or disrespecting others, they will have to be closed in the future.  Thank you.


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 15-Jun-2008 at 23:29
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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 01:29
 
 
You used albania.com earlier. That's the site.
 
tell me when and where?If you are not able to do it then you are lying!
 
 
 
-_- it's on the last page. I can't be bothered to open two windows and get it for you. If you want you can go look for it yourself, if not I don't care. No relevance to the discussion at all what so ever.
 
same answer:tell me when and where?If you are not able to do it then you are lying!
 
 
 
 
 
Again you don't call yourself Albanoi or Albanian. There's a difference between Iberia and the Iberian peninsula. Just like there is a difference between Alba and Albania.
 
I posted documentes from 1500 writed by Albanians,calling themselves Albanians,Scanderbegs letter calling his soldiers Albanians,what do you want more?Find me a medieval quote writen by anyone where the term Shqiptar is used.
 

Ooooh right old Albanian. ;) Gotcha.
Wherever it came from it is similar to the checnyan one as well as the words have their similarities.
 
Yes old Albanian.
 
Or it shows a carelessness for the spelling?
 
Yes carpatian troll.
 

Ever Hoxza my mistake. ;)
 
Is Hoxha.
 
 
A german historian, but i said that the austro hungarians used it as a designation for croats/serbs/ everyone in the west balkans.
 
And?..
 
 
 
I'm just saying that both words are related because Greek/Latin do have several relations. But perhaps you can prove how it is latin orignally as opposed to italian.
 
Do you have any proof to back your theory,a reference anything?
Btw what about Arnawut,i saw you ignored that part in your answer.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 02:37
"
tell me when and where?If you are not able to do it then you are lying!"
 
Ah albanianhistory.net that's right. Go to the last page. You gave me links from it. The same garbage website that claims you to be "the actual greeks" and alexander was albanian and what not.
 
"
same answer:tell me when and where?If you are not able to do it then you are lying!"
 
So you are saying you did not bring up Serbs? Or made refrence to Serbs concerning me?
 
"I posted documentes from 1500 writed by Albanians,calling themselves Albanians,Scanderbegs letter calling his soldiers Albanians,what do you want more?Find me a medieval quote writen by anyone where the term Shqiptar is used."
Could we see it written in the original language? In any case he himself said he was an Epirote not an Albanian. But I know to you it's the same thing.
 
"
Is Hoxha."

I've seen his name spelt 3 different ways. The one i posted was from wiki.
 
"
And?.."

And you were being educated on the refrence you made. Read your post.
 
"Do you have any proof to back your theory,a reference anything?"
 
What theory? It's general knowledge among linguists that Greek and Latin share many common features.
 
"
Btw what about Arnawut,i saw you ignored that part in your answer."

No i am going to go ask about it in the steppe forum when I get a chance.
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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 03:07
 
Ah albanianhistory.net that's right. Go to the last page. You gave me links from it. The same garbage website that claims you to be "the actual greeks" and alexander was albanian and what not.
 
Lol,your case is a mix of ignorance and mistrust.It is not an Albanian site or forum but its a collection of translated documents made by Robert Elsie,perhaps the Best Albanologist in this moment,he is also an exellent translator of Albanian.
That site is his personal work,and its full of documents about Albania,translated in english and all of them are primary sources.
Here is the homepage:
introduction:
Welcome to the website of Robert Elsie: writer, translator, interpreter and specialist in Albanian studies. Here you will find not only information about Robert Elsie, but in particular all the publications of the author: books, articles, book reviews and interviews from 1975 to the present day. The full text of many of these books and of most of the articles, book reviews and interviews can be downloaded as a PDF file.
 
 
And this is the part of his website,full of translated documents.
 
The website "Texts and Documents of Albanian History" is a collection of texts which endeavours to throw light on a corner of Europe which is often ignored by historians and scholars. It is not designed as a history of Albania or of the Albanians, but is simply a compilation of historical texts - some important and some less important - from the eleventh to the twentieth century, which will add to an understanding of the history and development of Albania and its people. Many of these works have never appeared before in translation.
 
  
So you are saying you did not bring up Serbs? Or made refrence to Serbs concerning me?
 
No Dude i was talking about Greeks,you said i mentioned them.But probably all was already in your mind.
 
Epirote not an Albanian. But I know to you it's the same thing.
 
Epirote and Albanian were exactly the same thing as i said,and its easy understandable also from that letter.But i brought you other links.
 


I've seen his name spelt 3 different ways. The one i posted was from wiki.
 
Well its hoxha,wikiman!
 


And you were being educated on the refrence you made. Read your post.
 
I think you should read my post.
 
 
 
What theory? It's general knowledge among linguists that Greek and Latin share many common features.
 
Its also general knowledge among linguists (except for you),that Albanian and Latin share many common features too.
 
No i am going to go ask about it in the steppe forum when I get a chance.
 
Im waiting.Can you at least tell were did you read or heard it?Lets hope not again in that forum brought by GoldenBlood.
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