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Vorian
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Topic: "Slavic settlements in the Balkans" Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 12:29 |
Originally posted by Chilbudios
Vorian, eventually we all came from Africa. |
LOL
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Anton
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Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 12:35 |
Originally posted by Slayertplsko
And it's strange that those people speak a semitic language down there... |
Recent studies point to the idea that gene flows and language flows are not parallel.
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Chilbudios
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Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 12:57 |
However, Anton, I guess it is a valid remark that following only one marker may lead to unexpected results.
Another paper from the same journal suggets Macedonians and Greeks are rather related - from the abstract (I didn't read it) it seems the same marker.
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Anton
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Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 13:56 |
Originally posted by Chilbudios
However, Anton, I guess it is a valid remark that following only one marker may lead to unexpected results. |
That's true. However usage of many markers probably requires more complicated mathematical methods that maybe were even not created yet. So people like Cavalli-Sforza criticizing him does not necessarily get more trustable results :)
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Carpathian Wolf
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Posted: 06-Jun-2008 at 22:35 |
But the name Albania in your arguement is irrelevant because Albanians don't call themselves Albanian. You use Sqiptare right?
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EthnicAlbania
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Posted: 07-Jun-2008 at 02:52 |
Carpathian Wolf ! Albanians call Albania Shqiperi same like Germans call Germany Deutchland and same like British call Great Britain England and themself english.
And yes we call ourself Shqipëtar. What's your point here?
Edited by EthnicAlbania - 07-Jun-2008 at 02:54
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Carpathian Wolf
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Posted: 07-Jun-2008 at 04:32 |
My point is that other then the name Albania there is nothing really linking you to the Illyrians. And even that link is broken by the fact that you don't even use that name yourselves. So The byzantine chornicles can refer to Arbanoi all they want, that isn't a name you use for yourself.
Up until the 18th century no one suggested that Albanians were Illyrians. Show me a source that states other wise.
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Flipper
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 12:41 |
Originally posted by Vorian
From wiki, it seems to me that, the man just loves the attention and makes controversial studies just to draw the lights on him. The fact he was suspended from his hospital for embezzlement of funds doesn't help his credibility imo.
Still, I don't think that anyone here actually believes that Greeks are originated from Ethiopia. It contradicts history, anthropology and common sense.
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Yes, it is not that he has a clean sheet. However, the fuzz was not created specifically about the study on Greeks, but about all the results like the linking of South Africans with Japanese and Irish. Maybe something went terribly wrong, but like all studies in any field they're published because they may provide some usefull information in the future or fill a missing link. I'm not an anthropologist, but when i first asked someone with medical background, the answer i got was that the immune system of people living in warm countries can be similar because of the environment or something. Simple as that. In any case, the study does not match other studies that have been done before and after. Chibuldios demonstrated already an example. Besides, according to the genographic project of National Geographic, there was a migration from Africa 20 000 years ago. However, the main migration occured 10 000 years ago from Anatolia (M172 marker) and is common with many other groups in the eastern mediteranean and Italy. In the end as Chibuldios said, we all came from Africa, maybe 200 000 years ago, so what's the big deal? Raaaaaaastafarah Jaaaaaaaah!
Edited by Flipper - 10-Jun-2008 at 12:45
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Anton
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 19:30 |
Flipper you are wrong. Fuzz was about making too much conclusions by a research made by one marker. Arnaiz-Villena never actually claimed the similarity between Japanese and Afrikans. Actually the bad guys here were bastards who wrote this letter to Nature rather than Villena himself. Keeping in mind that their conclusions turned out to be quite wrong as well.
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GoldenBlood
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 21:03 |
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf
My point is that other then the name Albania there is nothing really linking you to the Illyrians. And even that link is broken by the fact that you don't even use that name yourselves. So The byzantine chornicles can refer to Arbanoi all they want, that isn't a name you use for yourself. |
Carposhki.....We called themself Arbanit/Arbresh/Arber an Illyrian tribes (mentioned in the 2nd century BC by Polybius) who lived Today North Albania/SouthEast Kosova and were close to Albanians (who lived Central Albania). Arbanoi and Albanoi both were illyrian tribes who lived close.
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf
Up until the 18th century no one suggested that Albanians were Illyrians. Show me a source that states other wise. |
did you read history before claiming carposh? 1) Hans Erich Thunman (in 17th Century) a Swedish professor who worked in the University of Leipzig
2) Daniele Farlati ( 17th Century) an italian/vatican professor: http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Daniele_Farlati
his book:
3) The lord Manuel Palaiogos, Emperor (13th-14th Century) http://www2.let.uu.nl/Solis/anpt/ejos/pdf2/W06.PDF
p.s EthnikAlbania ore shiko se cfare shkruan se na morre ftyren
Edited by GoldenBlood - 10-Jun-2008 at 21:29
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Kosova dhe Ilirida, pjese te Dardanise
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Flipper
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 21:53 |
Originally posted by Anton
Flipper you are wrong. Fuzz was about making too much conclusions by a research made by one marker. Arnaiz-Villena never actually claimed the similarity between Japanese and Afrikans. Actually the bad guys here were bastards who wrote this letter to Nature rather than Villena himself. Keeping in mind that their conclusions turned out to be quite wrong as well. |
Easy there Anton. I was not wrong really. I might have been wrong for not mentioning the single marker, that was however already mentioned earlier. This discussion is really irrelevant to the subject, but to justify my report here are some links about his studies. Genetics paper erased from journal over political contentJournal axes gene research on Jews and PalestiniansControversial immunologist faces court caseVoted the worlds worst population DNA studyAnd who were those you call "bastards" and why? A bit heated comment for no reason. Can we now continue with the main subject?
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Carpathian Wolf
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 23:01 |
"Carposhki.....We called themself Arbanit/Arbresh/Arber an Illyrian tribes (mentioned in the 2nd century BC by Polybius) who lived Today North Albania/SouthEast Kosova and were close to Albanians (who lived Central Albania). Arbanoi and Albanoi both were illyrian tribes who lived close."
Yes that may be true. Arbanoi and Albanoi may have been Illyrian tribes BUT you don't call yourself Arbanoi or Albanoi or even Albanian. You call yourself Sqiptare. So it doesn't matter what the Illyrian tribes called themselves because whatever it was, it isn't what you call yourselfs.
"1) Hans Erich Thunman (in 17th Century) a Swedish professor who worked in the University of Leipzig"
Could you show us some of his writings? Maybe an online book?
"The lord Manuel Palaiogos, Emperor (13th-14th Century) http://www2.let.uu.nl/Solis/anpt/ejos/pdf2/W06.PDF"
Sorry but i won't download things. I'll open links but not download them.
See the whole Illyrian movement was popular with the south slavs as a whole as a part of pan slavism, a movement against the Austro-Hungarian occupation after the Turks were beaten back. It isn't unique to just Albanians. At the same time I don't doubt Albanians have Illyrian(Thracian) stock in them, but no more then the Serbs or the Croatians for example.
What I am not seeing here is a date by date proof and chronicle of this direct descendants. For example when Hungarians challenge the ethnicity of my people because of Transilvania I have a whole slew of chronicles from even their own historians that mention our Dacian/Roman ethnicity. That's what I'd like to see from the Albanian side.
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Flipper
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 23:51 |
Originally posted by GoldenBlood
Carposhki.....We called themself Arbanit/Arbresh/Arber an Illyrian tribes (mentioned in the 2nd century BC by Polybius) who lived Today North Albania/SouthEast Kosova and were close to Albanians (who lived Central Albania).
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Polybius mentions Arbon which is a city. I have been unable to locate any text mentioning to Arbesh or similar by Polybius. I think that is rather a fictional addition ( not by you GoldenBlood but by some wikipedia author). Maybe I'm wrong but I have never seen an exact reference to where Polybius mentions those names, nor are they searchable within his work.
Edited by Flipper - 10-Jun-2008 at 23:54
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Anton
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 01:19 |
Originally posted by Flipper
Easy there Anton. I was not wrong really. I might have been wrong for not mentioning the single marker, that was however already mentioned earlier.
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OK let me remind you in what he was accused:
1. In making political comment in his paper of similarities of Jews and Arabs. This work is not doubted scientifically and was actually supported by other researches.
2. Subsaharan origin of Greeks paper which was done by comparison of one marker. This one is weird but has nothing to do with politics.
3. Charges against him. They were all taken away by next court.
Mate, if you would be fair you would mention that court cases does not anymore exist. I do hope you didn't forget this by purpose.
This blog has nothing to do with peer reviewd journals really.
And who were those you call "bastards" and why? A bit heated comment for no reason.
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OK, they are not bastards. Sorry. I meant the researchers who wrote a letter to Nature criticizing his work.
Can we now continue with the main subject?
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No probs
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Flipper
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 13:29 |
Originally posted by Anton
Mate, if you would be fair you would mention that court cases does not anymore exist. I do hope you didn't forget this by purpose.
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Ofcourse not. Besides, you already mentioned this earlier. It is stupid to go to court because someone made a weird research. I guess he was accused about other things, that were never prooven, but the court would never give a penalty to someone that made a research no matter what. It is the scientific community that is responsible for judging such things, not a court official who only knows about the validity of the laws.
This blog has nothing to do with peer reviewd journals really.
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I just included it cause it mentions the Japanese - African connection.
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Anton
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 15:07 |
Originally posted by Flipper
Ofcourse not. Besides, you already mentioned this earlier. It is stupid to go to court because someone made a weird research. I guess he was accused about other things, that were never prooven, but the court would never give a penalty to someone that made a research no matter what.
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Exactly. He was charged for some unappropriate money/utility usage.
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 19:16 |
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf
So The byzantine chornicles can refer to Arbanoi all they want, that isn't a name you use for yourself. |
And did Arbanoi call themselves 'arbanoi'? You know, Slavs called the Germans niemtsy, Romans called them Germani...they called themselves differently.
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Carpathian Wolf
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 19:48 |
We have no reason to believe other wise.
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 19:53 |
Oh yes we do. Romans didn't call Greeks Illinoi did they?
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Carpathian Wolf
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 22:25 |
That's irrelevant. My point is the only thing linking Illyrians to Albanians directly is the name, but the name wasn't used by the latter group. They don't call themselves anything close to Albanian or Illyrian.
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