Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

"Slavic settlements in the Balkans"

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1415161718 21>
Author
Vorian View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2007
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 566
  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Slavic settlements in the Balkans"
    Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 12:29
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Vorian, eventually we all came from Africa. Wink



LOL
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 12:35
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

And it's strange that those people speak a semitic language down there...
 
Recent studies point to the idea that gene flows and language flows are not parallel.
.
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 12:57
However, Anton, I guess it is a valid remark that following only one marker may lead to unexpected results.
 
 
Another paper from the same journal suggets Macedonians and Greeks are rather related - from the abstract (I didn't read it) it seems the same marker.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 13:56
Originally posted by Chilbudios

However, Anton, I guess it is a valid remark that following only one marker may lead to unexpected results.
 
That's true. However usage of many markers probably requires more complicated mathematical methods that maybe were even not created yet. So people like Cavalli-Sforza criticizing him does not necessarily get more trustable results :)
.
Back to Top
Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
General
General

BANNED

Joined: 06-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 884
  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2008 at 22:35
But the name Albania in your arguement is irrelevant because Albanians don't call themselves Albanian. You use Sqiptare right?
Back to Top
EthnicAlbania View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 13-May-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote EthnicAlbania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2008 at 02:52
Carpathian Wolf ! Albanians call Albania Shqiperi same like Germans call Germany Deutchland and same like British call Great Britain England and themself english.
And yes we call ourself Shqipëtar. What's your point here?


Edited by EthnicAlbania - 07-Jun-2008 at 02:54
Back to Top
Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
General
General

BANNED

Joined: 06-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 884
  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2008 at 04:32
My point is that other then the name Albania there is nothing really linking you to the Illyrians. And even that link is broken by the fact that you don't even use that name yourselves. So The byzantine chornicles can refer to Arbanoi all they want, that isn't a name you use for yourself.
 
Up until the 18th century no one suggested that Albanians were Illyrians. Show me a source that states other wise.
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 12:41
Originally posted by Vorian

From wiki, it seems to me that, the man just loves the attention and makes controversial studies just to draw the lights on him. The fact he was suspended from his hospital for embezzlement of funds doesn't help his credibility imo.

Still, I don't think that anyone here actually believes that Greeks are originated from Ethiopia. It contradicts history, anthropology and common sense.


Yes, it is not that he has a clean sheet. However, the fuzz was not created specifically about the study on Greeks, but about all the results like the linking of South Africans with Japanese and Irish. Maybe something went terribly wrong, but like all studies in any field they're published because they may provide some usefull information in the future or fill a missing link. I'm not an anthropologist, but when i first asked someone with medical background, the answer i got was that the immune system of people living in warm countries can be similar because of the environment or something. Simple as that.

In any case, the study does not match other studies that have been done before and after. Chibuldios demonstrated already an example.

Besides, according to the genographic project of National Geographic, there was a migration from Africa 20 000 years ago. However, the main migration occured 10 000 years ago from Anatolia (M172 marker) and is common with many other groups in the eastern mediteranean and Italy.

In the end as Chibuldios said, we all came from Africa, maybe 200 000 years ago, so what's the big deal?

Raaaaaaastafarah Jaaaaaaaah! LOL


Edited by Flipper - 10-Jun-2008 at 12:45


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 19:30
Flipper you are wrong. Fuzz was about making too much conclusions by a research made by one marker. Arnaiz-Villena never actually claimed the similarity between Japanese and Afrikans. Actually the bad guys here were bastards who wrote this letter to Nature rather than Villena himself. Keeping in mind that their conclusions turned out to be quite wrong as well. Wink
.
Back to Top
GoldenBlood View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 06-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 130
  Quote GoldenBlood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 21:03
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

My point is that other then the name Albania there is nothing really linking you to the Illyrians. And even that link is broken by the fact that you don't even use that name yourselves. So The byzantine chornicles can refer to Arbanoi all they want, that isn't a name you use for yourself.


Carposhki.....We called themself Arbanit/Arbresh/Arber an Illyrian tribes (mentioned in the 2nd century BC by Polybius) who lived Today North Albania/SouthEast Kosova and were close to Albanians (who lived Central Albania).

Arbanoi and Albanoi both were illyrian tribes who lived close.

Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

 
Up until the 18th century no one suggested that Albanians were Illyrians. Show me a source that states other wise.


did you read history before claiming carposh?

1) Hans Erich Thunman (in 17th Century) a Swedish professor who worked in the University of Leipzig

2)
Daniele Farlati (17th Century) an italian/vatican professor:
http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Daniele_Farlati

his book:


3) The lord Manuel Palaiogos, Emperor (13th-14th Century)
http://www2.let.uu.nl/Solis/anpt/ejos/pdf2/W06.PDF


p.s EthnikAlbania ore shiko se cfare shkruan se na morre ftyren Ouch



Edited by GoldenBlood - 10-Jun-2008 at 21:29
Kosova dhe Ilirida, pjese te Dardanise
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 21:53
Originally posted by Anton

Flipper you are wrong. Fuzz was about making too much conclusions by a research made by one marker. Arnaiz-Villena never actually claimed the similarity between Japanese and Afrikans. Actually the bad guys here were bastards who wrote this letter to Nature rather than Villena himself. Keeping in mind that their conclusions turned out to be quite wrong as well. Wink


Easy there Anton.
I was not wrong really. I might have been wrong for not mentioning the single marker, that was however already mentioned earlier.

This discussion is really irrelevant to the subject, but to justify my report here are some links about his studies.

Genetics paper erased from journal over political content
Journal axes gene research on Jews and Palestinians
Controversial immunologist faces court case
Voted the worlds worst population DNA study

And who were those you call "bastards" and why? A bit heated comment for no reason.

Can we now continue with the main subject?


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
General
General

BANNED

Joined: 06-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 884
  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 23:01
"Carposhki.....We called themself Arbanit/Arbresh/Arber an Illyrian tribes (mentioned in the 2nd century BC by Polybius) who lived Today North Albania/SouthEast Kosova and were close to Albanians (who lived Central Albania).

Arbanoi and Albanoi both were illyrian tribes who lived close."
 
Yes that may be true. Arbanoi and Albanoi may have been Illyrian tribes BUT you don't call yourself Arbanoi or Albanoi or even Albanian. You call yourself Sqiptare. So it doesn't matter what the Illyrian tribes called themselves because whatever it was, it isn't what you call yourselfs.
 
"1) Hans Erich Thunman (in 17th Century) a Swedish professor who worked in the University of Leipzig"
 
Could you show us some of his writings? Maybe an online book?
 
"2) Daniele Farlati (17th Century) an italian/vatican professor:
http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Daniele_Farlati"

Could we see his book online please? And does he ever claim that Albanians are the direct descendents of Illyrians?
 
"The lord Manuel Palaiogos, Emperor (13th-14th Century)
http://www2.let.uu.nl/Solis/anpt/ejos/pdf2/W06.PDF"
 
Sorry but i won't download things. I'll open links but not download them.
 
See the whole Illyrian movement was popular with the south slavs as a whole as a part of pan slavism, a movement against the Austro-Hungarian occupation after the Turks were beaten back. It isn't unique to just Albanians. At the same time I don't doubt Albanians have Illyrian(Thracian) stock in them, but no more then the Serbs or the Croatians for example.
 
What I am not seeing here is a date by date proof and chronicle of this direct descendants. For example when Hungarians challenge the ethnicity of my people because of Transilvania I have a whole slew of chronicles from even their own historians that mention our Dacian/Roman ethnicity. That's what I'd like to see from the Albanian side.
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 23:51
Originally posted by GoldenBlood



Carposhki.....We called themself Arbanit/Arbresh/Arber an Illyrian tribes (mentioned in the 2nd century BC by Polybius) who lived Today North Albania/SouthEast Kosova and were close to Albanians (who lived Central Albania).



Polybius mentions Arbon which is a city. I have been unable to locate any text mentioning to Arbesh or similar by Polybius. I think that is rather a fictional addition (not by you GoldenBlood but by some wikipedia author). Maybe I'm wrong but I have never seen an exact reference to where Polybius mentions those names, nor are they searchable within his work.


Edited by Flipper - 10-Jun-2008 at 23:54


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 01:19
Originally posted by Flipper


Easy there Anton.
I was not wrong really. I might have been wrong for not mentioning the single marker, that was however already mentioned earlier.
 
 
OK let me remind you in what he was accused:
1. In making political comment in his paper of similarities of Jews and Arabs. This work is not doubted scientifically and was actually supported by other researches.
2. Subsaharan origin of Greeks paper which was done by comparison of one marker.  This one is weird but has nothing to do with politics.
3. Charges against him. They were all taken away by next court.
 
 

This discussion is really irrelevant to the subject, but to justify my report here are some links about his studies.

Controversial immunologist faces court case
Mate, if you would be fair you would mention that court cases does not anymore exist. I do hope you didn't forget this by purpose.
 
This blog has nothing to do with peer reviewd journals really.
 

And who were those you call "bastards" and why? A bit heated comment for no reason.
OK, they are not bastards. Sorry. I meant the researchers who wrote a letter to Nature criticizing his work.
 

Can we now continue with the main subject?
No probs Smile
.
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 13:29
Originally posted by Anton

Mate, if you would be fair you would mention that court cases does not anymore exist. I do hope you didn't forget this by purpose.


Ofcourse not. Besides, you already mentioned this earlier. It is stupid to go to court because someone made a weird research. I guess he was accused about other things, that were never prooven, but the court would never give a penalty to someone that made a research no matter what. It is the scientific community that is responsible for judging such things, not a court official who only knows about the validity of the laws. Smile
 
This blog has nothing to do with peer reviewd journals really.


I just included it cause it mentions the Japanese - African connection.


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 15:07
Originally posted by Flipper


Ofcourse not. Besides, you already mentioned this earlier. It is stupid to go to court because someone made a weird research. I guess he was accused about other things, that were never prooven, but the court would never give a penalty to someone that made a research no matter what.
Exactly. He was charged for some unappropriate money/utility usage.
.
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061
  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 19:16
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

So The byzantine chornicles can refer to Arbanoi all they want, that isn't a name you use for yourself.


And did Arbanoi call themselves 'arbanoi'?Smile 
You know, Slavs called the Germans niemtsy, Romans called them Germani...they called themselves differently.
Back to Top
Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
General
General

BANNED

Joined: 06-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 884
  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 19:48
We have no reason to believe other wise.
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061
  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 19:53
Oh yes we do. Romans didn't call Greeks Illinoi did they?
Back to Top
Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
General
General

BANNED

Joined: 06-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 884
  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 22:25
That's irrelevant. My point is the only thing linking Illyrians to Albanians directly is the name, but the name wasn't used by the latter group. They don't call themselves anything close to Albanian or Illyrian.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1415161718 21>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.