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Were Spartans Jewish? !!!

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Were Spartans Jewish? !!!
    Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 07:46

I was reading Jewish history, on the Macabees, when I stumbled on this:

Both books of Maccabees link the Spartans with the Jews. I Maccabees 12 tells of Jonathan sending a letter to the Lacedemonians (Spartan Greeks) asking for their help, since they were brethren. The Spartans replied, "It is found in writing, that the Lacedemonians and Jews are brethren and that they are of the stock of Abraham" (verse 21). It is assumed by some writers that this means the Spartans were Israelites, but the Spartans were not Israelites they were Edomites descended from Bela son of Beor and brother of Baalim, and king of Edom (Genesis 36:32; I Chronicles 1:43). Edom was the son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham who sold his birthright, and bred his posterity off the Book of Life.

www.biblebelievers.org.au/bb980306.htm

Also:

in 1 Macc

12:19-23 the high priest Jonathan quotes an interesting letter sent by Areios, a former king of the Spartans, to Onias, who was the high priest of Jerusalem for some time before the Maccabaean crisis (167-164 BC) :

It has been discovered in records regarding the Spartans and Jews that they are brothers, and of the race of Abraham Our own message to you is this :

your flocks and your possessions are ours, and ours are yours, and we are instructing our envoys to give you a message to this effect.

Besides a chronological problem about king Areios, it is difficult to imagine a statement by Greeks claiming they are brothers of Barbarians. So this is most probably a Jewish diplomatic fiction. Its background is twofold : first, the Spartan connection may refer to Onias origin, as we learn through his brother Jason, who was compelled to flee and traveled to Sparta, hoping that, for kinships sake, he might find harbor there (2 Macc 5:9). Second, sharing flocks with Spartans from Greece may look out of place, but it suffices to consider a Spartan colony in Egypt, from the time of Alexander or later : the very name Onias recalls On, the Egyptian name of the sun (and sun worship, see Exod 1:11 LXX), and it is stated in1 Macc 12:9 that this high priest, appointed in Jerusalem by the Seleucid king, did not have the sacred books. Now if we focus on Egypt, the problem of the flocks makes sense for nomads in the desert (Negeb, Sinai). This way we get closer to the narrative of Gen 13:6-7, when Abraham and Lot, coming back from Egypt, had too many possessions to live together ; dispute broke out between the herdsmen of Abraham and those of Lot. So there was a real problem of flocks. In any case, the content of the letter cannot have been extracted from Genesis as it stands, but there may have been some common origin.

http://josephus.yorku.ca/pdf/nodet2000.pdf

 

Of course, it's nonsense and fabrications, but still make an interesting read!



Edited by Yiannis
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 16:30
Oh, my man, Flavius Josephus.
I'd suggest you read his "Against Apion" for a good laugh.
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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  Quote Menippos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 20:22
What else will my poor eyes see....
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  Quote HulaguHan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 20:27

I heard some Jewish nationalist maniacs claimed Khazar Turks to be from  Jewish nation too.

Ignore the troll....

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  Quote philiptheuniter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 22:15

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 00:08
Wow... that is certainly... wow...
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  Quote GENERAL PARMENION Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 05:21

Totaly absurd !

 

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  Quote Menippos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 05:39
Not absurd - just hilarious 

That's why people in Mani say "Lekhaim" when they toast


Edited by Menippos
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  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 05:55
The hilarious is that actually there are people believing it.
A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
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  Quote Menippos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 06:13
Let them believe what they want - as long as they don't say that we are an annex-to-be for FYROM...
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  Quote Morgoth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 07:43

The hilarious is that actually there are people believing it.

Not hilarious at all, its actually quite scary. People will believe all kind of crazy idiocy.

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 07:49

That happens when one examines ancient sounces only by their context,  not taking into account the social/political environment in which they were written in.

For example, I remember a fascist Greek, taking into account a phrace of a Jewish writer who saying something in the lines of "these hated Greeks, we should kill them etc...". That taken out of proportion can be used to show that "Jews hate Greeks", but considering that this was written at a time when the process of the Hellenisation of Judea was in full swing, with Greek colonists arriving all the time and Hellenized Jews worshiping Zeus in the Temple of Solomon, one gets another picture. That the writter was a faithfull & patriotic Jew who resists the conquerors of his country.

I think that this part in in the Old testament, Macabees or something like it...

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  Quote Menippos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 07:49
People lust for myths and legends, even if these are most unbelievable. Don't forget - we begin our lives listening to fairy-tales and we end it by telling them ourselves.
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 10:52
 Yianni,

Xtupas ekei pou ponaei, re

Well actually if we look into this issue strictly on historic accounts/texts, there are many references in all Hebrew text of 'degrading' (allow the term) remarks towards the Hellines.
The Maccabees you've been reading, their Chanukah (festival of light) the Talmud, the Old Testament all do mention the Hellines/Gentiles.

If we take a better look at Flavius Josephus, I wouldn't call him a faithfull nor a patriotic Jew. If you do look into his life you'll find that his people titled him traitor. Since he actually abandoned the Jews and sided with the Romans (thus the name Flavius). It is for this reason that many consider his work as 'propaganda' in order to restore his name.

The quote you mention is probably from O.Testament, Zecharaiah 9:13, but I think that it was written earlier than the Hellinistic era.


Edited by Phallanx
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 11:11

I'm actually now in Tel-Aviv and I was discussing with a friend, on the influence of Hellenism of Jewish culture. Apparently there's much!

People tend to degrade their neigbors in general, us Greeks are a prime example: "all those not Greeks are Barbarians"

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 11:25
While I will agree that it is a common act for people to degrade their neigbors. "PAS MH ELLHN BARBAROS" is quite different.
It wasn't that much of a degratory 'term' but a clear distinction between the Hellines and those of a lower state of intellect.

Have a great time down there.
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 11:41
Originally posted by Phallanx


It wasn't that much of a degratory 'term' but a clear distinction between the Hellines and those of a lower state of intellect.


As I want to avoid to give the impression that I persecute the author of this sentence, would somebody else please comment on the above remark!

Edited by Komnenos
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 12:06
Komnenos

Barbaros:
  • one whose speech is rude, rough and harsh
  • one who speaks a foreign or strange language which is not understood by another
  • used by the Greeks of any foreigner ignorant of the Greek language, whether mental or moral, with the added notion after the Persian war, of rudeness and brutality. The word is used in the N.T. without the idea of reproachfulness.

  • http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=915
    -----------------

    This article contends that the meaning of "barbarian" as used in contemporary English language to denote uncivilized or savage, is not a true representation of the original meaning as used by Herodotus some 2400 years ago. How? Answer to this conundrum lies in the fact that origin of the English word Barbarian is from word pronounced barbaros or  barbarous. In Greek language, this word simply means a foreigner someone non-Greek. Even in todays written Greek, this word is used to describe non-Greek people as they are related to their land or culture but alien from the land of Greece.

    Argument
    It would be unreasonable to believe that a historian of Herodotus' stature could be ignorant or would disregard his own knowledge of Persian achievements, and refer to Persians as savages and uncivilized in his use of the word "barbarian"..

    http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:R_pwnsV8RR0J:www.iran ch amber.com/podium/history/030506_persians_just_non_greek. pdf+ barbaros+greek&hl=el&client=firefox-a
    --------------------

    Or what better than to see what they actually believed.


    "And so far has our city distanced the rest of mankind in thought and in speech that her pupils have become the teachers of the rest of the world; and she has brought it about that the name Hellenes suggests no longer a race but an intelligence, and that the title Hellenes is applied to those who share our culture OR to those who share a common blood.
    (Isocrates Panegyrikos 50)


    There is no form of persecution. As long as there are no facsist/racist  remarks, I'd be more than happy to discuss anything with you.


    Edited by Phallanx
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      Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 12:11

    I'll have to actually agree with Phallanx here .

    In the begining, the term barbarian was not an insult. It was meant to indicate a non-Greek in speach. It became a derogatory term during Hellenistic and especially Roman times.

    The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

    Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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      Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 12:15
    Well , Yiannis

    According to Suda online (written in the Byzantine period)

    Barbarians

    Translation:
    Meaning those men who are dumb or deaf and who do not know their speech. Aristophanes in Birds [writes]: "for I myself stayed with them for a long time and taught them speech, although they were barbarians before." The hoopoe says [this] about the birds.[1]
    Greek Original:
    Barbarous: anti tou aphônous ê anêkoous anthrôpôn kai mê eidotas autôn tên phônên. Aristophanês Ornisin: egô gar autous barbarous ontas protou, edidaxa tên phônên sunôn polun chronon. peri tôn orneôn legei ho epops.

    http://www.stoa.org/sol-bin//search.pl?search_method=QUERY &login=&enlogin=&searchstr=beta,105&field=ad lerhw_gr&db=REAL


    It seems like the change into a degratory term must have happened later.



    Edited by Phallanx
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