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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Uyghur and Uzbek
    Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 19:03
It's terrible when people lose a sense of their past and are ashamed of it.  I have to deal with it all the time in the States.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 19:31

What does the word "Chinese" mean?

Chinese

  1. A native or inhabitant of China.

    A person of Chinese ancestry.

  2. A member of the principal ethnic group of China, constituting about 93 percent of the population, especially as distinguished from Manchus, Mongols, Huis, and other minority nationalities. Also called Chinese, Han Chinese.
    1. The sole member of the Sinitic branch of the Sino-Tibetan language family, consisting of numerous languages and dialects such as Mandarin, Cantonese, Taiwanese, and Fujian.
    2. Any of the Sinitic varieties of speech spoken by the Chinese people.
    3. The official national language of China; Mandarin.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chinese 

As you can see This word mostly refers to ethnical chinese people or hans.

Uighurs are by no means chinese.  They are turkic people who have a lot in common with Central Asian countries and Turkey.  Eastern Turkestan was literally given to China by Joseph Stalin. My understanding is that Stalin chose Mongolia over Eastern Turkestan.

What is Coolstorm is trying to do is to legitimize colonization by referring to nonexistent factor of unity. The truth is uighurs do not mix with chinese people and do not consider themselves being part of China.  Besides, chinese government is known for bloody crackdowns and mass executions of uighurs. Not to mention, deluting uighur population by bringing in han immigrants.

Eastern Turkestan is located in Central Asia and is now under Chinese communist's occupation. The land covers about 1/6 of whole Chinese territory and is inhabited mostly by Uighur, Kazakh, Kyrgiz, Uzbek, Tatar and other original inhabitants. Ever since Eastern Turkestan fell under Chinese control, the local peoples have been called "minority nationalities" according to different dialect and geographic distribution so that Chinese government can rule them easily. This policy has caused serious ethnic problems among the local populations and the ethnic Chinese ruling class due to brutal discrimination policy of the Chinese government.Although the region was given the name of Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region (XUAR) and was further divided into several autonomous states and counties aimed at showing outsiders that Chinese government are promoting "self ruling", actually the Uighur people and other local inhabitants have never gained any real autonomous power, even in the area where 99% of the population are aboriginal, the real power is still in the hands of immigrant Chinese people. The locals who are supposed to hold the highest position in XUAR, in fact never occupy any position of power and those who are dare to speak up are persecuted by Chinese communist authorities. In short, the Uighurs and other native inhabitants of East Turkestan are treated like second-class human beings in their own country.

Throughout its history and up until the Manchurian invasion in 1887, Eastern Turkestan maintained its national, cultural and religious identity distinct from those of Chinese. Prior to the Chinese invasion in 1950, Eastern Turkestan (established in 1944) was recognized de facto by numerous countries and thus, according to established principles of international law, Eastern Turkestan constitute an occupied territory. It is well known that, since the occupation the communist have pursued an aggressive policy of colonization. In 1887, Chinese population consisted only less than 1% of the region . In 1945, there were only 22,000 Chinese lived in Eastern Turkistan, most of them were government officials and soldiers, that was only less then 5% of the population of the region. By 1993, the number of Chinese settlers reached 6.5 million, which is about 50% of the local population and about 30 times the original figure. At present, it is estimated that more than 10,000 Chinese settlers pouring into the region on daily bases! According to one source, China is planning to transfer another 2 million people in the near future. Thus, the local people of Eastern Turkestan are becoming a small minority in their own country in a few more years. The mass immigration policy of Chinese government is aimed at transforming Eastern Turkestan into a completely Chinese province. This colonization policy has already caused serious problems for the local people. As a rule, the Chinese settlers are assigned to places where the natural water resources are easily accessible. The Chinese immigrants use up nearly all the water resources and leave local farmer's land dried out as a result of water shortage. Many of the local farmers have to leave their land behind and seek employment elsewhere. They wander around everywhere searching for work, but linguistic, cultural and religious difference make it extremely hard for them to compete with the Chinese settlers. Since there is no government policies to protect local inhabitants from discrimination, they are openly rejected just because of the race difference. Even those who have received higher education from the Chinese institution are rejected simply because his/her national identity.

Population transfer, including the implantation of settlers and settlements, was recognized by the UN Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities in its resolution 1991-1992/28, affect the basic human rights and freedoms of not only the people being moved or removed by governments, but also of the original inhabitants of the territory into which settlers are being implanted. In its resolution, the UN Sub-Commission noted that this practice may even constitute genocide.

China has conducted 43 nuclear tests since 1961, almost all of them were done at Lopnor test site in Eastern Turkestan. China is widely expected to perform two more nuclear tests this year in the region. All these tests have produced severe ecological disaster endangering human life, heavily polluted the air, drinking water and food products and are affecting millions of domestic and wild animals in the region. Up to this date, Chinese have never done any research in testing the effect of radioactive fallout on the local people living in the region, although the fruit and food products produced by the surrounding region of Lopnor test site were banned for exporting overseas as early as 1980s, but the local people are still consuming the radioactive animal meat and farm products without any warning. There is no reliable statistics available about diseases caused by radiation exposure in the area, but it is very easy for visitors to see local people with strange diseases; birth defectives; loss of memory; mental retardation; extremely high rate of skin diseases and incidence of thyroid cancer. There are a lot of so called "local diseases" without clinical definition are regarded related to nuclear waste. People are dying at very young age with no reasonable explanation. While the Chinese government claims successful nuclear tests time after time, Eastern Turkestanis are crying in their heart because they have no choice but silently suffer.

The Chinese government never announces the unemployment rate among local population in Eastern Turkestan, while there is basically no unemployment among Chinese settlers, but the employment rate for the native people is extremely low. Chinese have monopolized not only official rank of authority and influence, but also the positions in almost all walks of the life in Eastern Turkestan. Anyone who is able to visit any big production plant or company building or any commercial site hardly sees any local face - which is easily recognized by their Caucasian feature. Although the government now and then publishes fictional statistical data showing that the local minority consists about 50% of employed labor force, actually unemployment rate among local inhabitants is estimated as high as 90%. No independent authority has done any research on this subject because of fear of being called "National separatist" and put in jail. We ask the international community to conduct such research and reveal the truth to the world.

Chinese government's mass immigration policy, numerous nuclear tests and exploitation of the underground wealth Eastern Turkestan with crude mining methods has caused serious damage to the environment. Because of the geographical location, shortage of water has been a major problem for Eastern Turkestan. Many geologists and environmentalists have stated that the land cannot support the huge population which is being created by the Chinese government by the constant influx of ethnic Chinese, yet the Chinese government does not care about what happens to the world environment it does not care about the local people's right, all it wants is to dig out more oil and minerals. Tens of thousands of oil workers and their relatives are brought in from remote area of China to produce oil, the workers needs water to survive, so they dig deeper and deeper for underground water. As a consequence of this ecologically disastrous policy Eastern Turkestan is turning into a desert rapidly. According to one report by Xinjiang Academic Institute, about 40% present of grassland in Eastern Turkestan has become desert in last 30 years. The major reason is the mass transfer ethnic Chinese and their needs for natural resources, which has destroyed the ecological balance.

Previously, while the Chinese were restricted to one child per family, no birth control were enforced among the local peoples of Eastern Turkestan. However, as of 1988 the Chinese Communist authorities embarked upon a policy of coercive birth control among the local peoples, under the pretext of "ensuring the steady growth in the minority population", improving the quality of the population". and " eliminating economic inequalities". One couple are allowed to have only 2 children, in order to execute this policy, Chinese government uses forced abortion and wide scale enforced sterilization of woman against their cultural and religious belief. According to one source, in a town of 200,000 people, there were 35,000 child-bearing women who were subject to government checks. Among them, 686 women were forced to undergo a currettage, 993 were forced to discontinue their pregnancies and 10,708 women were forced to undergo sterilization. Implementing the birth control policy by using very poor medical equipment has led to the deaths of many women and children.
http://www.ccs.uky.edu/~rakhim/doc_files/un_appeal.html 

In general, uighur peasants find refuge from chinese expansion in holding tight to Islamic values. Educated Uighurs are mostly pro-turkish. Businessmen tend to lean towards the chinese.

Here is what  Bernard  Cloutier , a canadian traveller who visited  Xinjian Autonomous Region (Eastern Turkestan) wrote:

In the late 1940's, a Kazak named Osman led a rebellion of Uighurs, Kazaks and Mongols and established an independent Turkestan Republic which they later abolished in return for Chiang Kaishek's promise of real autonomy. Naturally this promise was not kept, the Chinese returned in force and executed Osman in 1951 after the communist takeover. At that time, 90 % of Xinjiang's population was Uighur. The communists built a railway to Urumqi and flooded the province with Han immigrants by giving them advantages denied in Han China and now the Uighur population is on the way of becoming a minority.
....These Uighur in the Turfan market seem happy enough but I wonder how many of them are aware that they are undergoing a cultural genocide!
http://berclo.net/page97/97en-china-15.html 

Chinese are busy with modernizing and rebuilding their country. They made truly remarkable leaps forward and steadily growing. But what future holds for minorities?  So far the picture is very bleak... lost lands, culture, language.... I wonder how it feels to become nobody in your own land?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 19:40
Wow..well said
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 20:05

"Uighurs are by no means chinese.  They are turkic people who have a lot in common with Central Asian countries and Turkey." 

well, good point. that makes the fact of taiwan being part of china even stronger for their han ethical, identical, and cultural background.

i didnt make any judgment but pointed out some experience of my own with my urghur driver in shanghai.

that's what he thinks he is. are u saying that he is not allowed to say that he is chinese even tho he wanna do that?

are u not giving him freedom to say he is chinese?



Edited by coolstorm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2004 at 03:35

1. I never said "he was not allowed to say that he is chinese even tho he wanna do that"

2. He may very well  be what you say he is. The point wasn't about that. Besides, you said yourself:

he might be han washed but he is a urghur by ethicity.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2004 at 20:36
Originally posted by coolstorm

"Uighurs are by no means chinese.  They are turkic people who have a lot in common with Central Asian countries and Turkey." 

well, good point. that makes the fact of taiwan being part of china even stronger for their han ethical, identical, and cultural background.

i didnt make any judgment but pointed out some experience of my own with my urghur driver in shanghai.

that's what he thinks he is. are u saying that he is not allowed to say that he is chinese even tho he wanna do that?

are u not giving him freedom to say he is chinese?

well said coolstorm. but the thing i find troublesome about the official People's Republic of China logic is that they use two opposite sides of a similar argument to assert their territorial claims. When talking about taiwan, they bring up this "one blood one culture one people" thing to assert that it can never be split from china; then when the topic shifts to Tibet or "xinjiang" (i prefer eastern turkestan) or inner mongolia and they say, "well these people are different culturally and ethnically but they are still all chinese, forever". please just be honest and say, our army is big so we are getting away with it. it is ridiculous to assert like some chinese people do that china has some sort of an inherent legitimacy over all these places like no other country; i would like to hear you explain why the mongolian government in ulan bator cannot say "one blood one culture one peopls" to claim inner mongolia, if it were not for tha fact that chinese industrial and military capacity prevents them.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 02:12

mongolian, manchurian chinese have been incorporated into the han culture in many areas.

yet, the han population in all the four ARs is at a level that these areas cannot be categorized as areas under dominate non-han cultural influence but muilti-ethical areas within the influence of the han chinese culture.

for example, the han population in xinjiang is bigger than the turkish population. the turkist population in xinjiang, although might be described as non han, is to the greatest extent a minority group within china. they can call themselves a minority or non-han chinese. but they are to the furthest extent a minority group within the boarder of china.

it's like the case of california and indian reservations in the us where the latino or indian population or culture is greater than that of the white americans. however, it is part of the united states instead of mexico or a native indian nation although ca used to be part of mexico. i am not forcing the turkish population to call themselves ethic chinese. they have the right to call themselves urghur just like the indians in america can insist on calling themselves the only americans and calling other white americans non-americans but they are to the furthest extent minority groups and citizens of the us.

the minority groups in china might not be ethic chinese but they are citizens of china, meaning that they are chinese by nationality not ethicity.

however, compared to tibet, i do think that the chinese have a more undeniable and absolutely legitimate claim of soverignty over taiwan. i can understand when a tibetan says he is not an ethic chinese but i cannot tolerate when a han chinese in taiwan, a descendant of our great huangdi, says he is not chinese.

but again, the han population or cultural influence in the ARs has reached a level that inner mongolia, manchuria have been incorporated to the mainstream of china while tibet and xinjiang on the other hand are under great han cultural influence that the han culture has become dominate.

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 12:55

All the citizens of the PRC are "Chinese" just like how all the citizens of Turkey are "Turkish", how all the citizens of Iran are "Iranian" and how all the citizens of the USA are "American".

On the Uyghur-Uzbek similarities: they both speak dialects of the Eastern Turkic Group and they both are sedentary peoples.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 06:08
Originally posted by battleaxe

Originally posted by coolstorm

"Uighurs are by no means chinese.  They are turkic people who have a lot in common with Central Asian countries and Turkey." 

well, good point. that makes the fact of taiwan being part of china even stronger for their han ethical, identical, and cultural background.

i didnt make any judgment but pointed out some experience of my own with my urghur driver in shanghai.

that's what he thinks he is. are u saying that he is not allowed to say that he is chinese even tho he wanna do that?

are u not giving him freedom to say he is chinese?

well said coolstorm. but the thing i find troublesome about the official People's Republic of China logic is that they use two opposite sides of a similar argument to assert their territorial claims. When talking about taiwan, they bring up this "one blood one culture one people" thing to assert that it can never be split from china; then when the topic shifts to Tibet or "xinjiang" (i prefer eastern turkestan) or inner mongolia and they say, "well these people are different culturally and ethnically but they are still all chinese, forever". please just be honest and say, our army is big so we are getting away with it. it is ridiculous to assert like some chinese people do that china has some sort of an inherent legitimacy over all these places like no other country; i would like to hear you explain why the mongolian government in ulan bator cannot say "one blood one culture one peopls" to claim inner mongolia, if it were not for tha fact that chinese industrial and military capacity prevents them.

 

I dont' know whether it could be true or not, but some people say that they (Chinese)  think they can say so because of their unovercomable sense of inferiority because they know that they were always ruled by non-chinese people since the San Huan U Di period up until 1949, when they finally managed to construct PRC and ROC (Wow, almost for 3000 thousand years or more????).

It's just like "Now its our turn, unless you speak Han Chinese, you are reactionary, splittist, capitalist, spies of imperialist world and terrorist", like that.

I dont know whether that guys opinion is true or not, but in so far as Uighr situation is concerned, it seems the situation is quite true. 

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 16:33

I'll not let this thread turn into a Chinese-nonChinese arguement.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 23:11

"I dont know whether that guys opinion is true or not, but in so far as Uighr situation is concerned, it seems the situation is quite true. "

 

Sure its true for anyone that are completely blind to historical background.

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