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oslonor View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 11:00
Originally posted by Zagros

Oslonor, you know Bakhtiaris are the most direct descendants of Medes?  You said Medes were dark and hook nosed.

And they are semi nomadic today, and to a much greater extend over the last thousand years or so, they are not indigenous to Khuzistan.

 



The Kurds in Turkey are the closest types to the original Medes. You can check to see how they look like. In Iran and Iraq the Kurds are very much mixed with Persians.  Bakhtiary's have nothing to do with Medes. Bakhtiarys originate from Parthians. So what is the question?
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 11:43

Mhm, if you say so.

 

 
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Originally posted by oslonor



First of all there is no Iranian nation. There are different ethnic groups in Iran. But there is no Iranian race or nation in Iran. This is very clear to all Iranians except to Azeris living in Tehran who imagine that there is an Iranian nation (anthropologically speaking). I do not know how Persians are being transformed into Azeri Turks. I have no information about that. Different ethnic groups live in different provinces. They do not live next to each other. Azeris live in Azerbaijan. Persians live in south central and North East. Persians consider even mixed race Azeris as Azeris and  not Persians. You do not have to look mongolian to be Turk. As far as Aryan migration is concerned, Persians and Afghans  qualify fo be Aryans in all respects and they are the same people. They are not two separate entities The only confusing element is some people add Azeris into the Iranian group and that causes all the confusion. If you take away Azeris then everything makes sense.  North West Iranians are Azeris. They are definitely not Aryans. Recently Azeris are being defined and classified with people from caucasus and not with Persians.  That Persians are the real Aryans is well established. It is just recently some people have tried to create confusion about what is what. On Berbers you can ask Amazig or Berter if you know them. They will confirm that some of the them are actually Iranians (I mean Iranians not Azeris).


I don't know if you see it but your discourse is contradictory: you say there is no Iranian nation or "race" and then you speak all the time about those non-existent Iranians. Could you clarify your position please: who do you consider Iranians? Persians? Kurds? Ossetians? Afghans? Tajiks? All of them?

Or are you talking of original proto-IEs or protohistorical Aryans or maybe Scythians? In that case, considering that their primary marker is R1a1 Ychr haplogroup, and that marker is pretty weak in Iran or Kurdistan, which has a rather strong Near Eastern/Mediterranean dominance, with some regional variations, of course. Greeks and Danes and Western Europeans are also weak in that marker, which is most strongly distributed among NE Europeans (Poles, Russians) and Southern Asians (Pakistanis, Indo-Aryan speaking Indians, Afghans, Tajiks).


Here is the chart:



Thanks. It's ambiguous because I don't know what the chart is exactly measuring. But, anyhow, notice that it says "N. Turkic", where N. obviously stands for North or Northern. Nowhere in that chart are Azeris or Western Turks plotted. N. Turks, most likely closer to original Turks in the genetic plane, are clearly grouped with East Asians and Amerindians, while the Caucasoid group also stands together clearly, with Indians, Lapps and Bebers somehow separated. Seeing where Greeks are plotted, I'm sue that Western Turks ans Azeris wouldn't be far away, in the case they were sampled for whatever measure they studied in that chart.

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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 18:48

Persian is not a racial designation like all others in Iran, they are purely cultural, the majority of all groups in Iran share similarity in genetics, the difference is in culture.  I have seen Kurds who look like Scandinavians and I have seen Kurds who look like Indians, the same with Persians AND Azaris.

Everyone everywhere is mixed and outside of Africa, Iran is among the most genetically diverse countries.

Maju, I wouldn't rely to much on those pie things, as sampling especially from regions like Iran have not been properly carried out, as in by regional ethnicity. 



Edited by Zagros
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Posts: 106 		  Quote oslonor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 18:51
Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by oslonor



First of all there is no Iranian nation. There are different ethnic groups in Iran. But there is no Iranian race or nation in Iran. This is very clear to all Iranians except to Azeris living in Tehran who imagine that there is an Iranian nation (anthropologically speaking). I do not know how Persians are being transformed into Azeri Turks. I have no information about that. Different ethnic groups live in different provinces. They do not live next to each other. Azeris live in Azerbaijan. Persians live in south central and North East. Persians consider even mixed race Azeris as Azeris and  not Persians. You do not have to look mongolian to be Turk. As far as Aryan migration is concerned, Persians and Afghans  qualify fo be Aryans in all respects and they are the same people. They are not two separate entities The only confusing element is some people add Azeris into the Iranian group and that causes all the confusion. If you take away Azeris then everything makes sense.  North West Iranians are Azeris. They are definitely not Aryans. Recently Azeris are being defined and classified with people from caucasus and not with Persians.  That Persians are the real Aryans is well established. It is just recently some people have tried to create confusion about what is what. On Berbers you can ask Amazig or Berter if you know them. They will confirm that some of the them are actually Iranians (I mean Iranians not Azeris).


I don't know if you see it but your discourse is contradictory: you say there is no Iranian nation or "race" and then you speak all the time about those non-existent Iranians. Could you clarify your position please: who do you consider Iranians? Persians? Kurds? Ossetians? Afghans? Tajiks? All of them?

Or are you talking of original proto-IEs or protohistorical Aryans or maybe Scythians? In that case, considering that their primary marker is R1a1 Ychr haplogroup, and that marker is pretty weak in Iran or Kurdistan, which has a rather strong Near Eastern/Mediterranean dominance, with some regional variations, of course. Greeks and Danes and Western Europeans are also weak in that marker, which is most strongly distributed among NE Europeans (Poles, Russians) and Southern Asians (Pakistanis, Indo-Aryan speaking Indians, Afghans, Tajiks).


Here is the chart:



Thanks. It's ambiguous because I don't know what the chart is exactly measuring. But, anyhow, notice that it says "N. Turkic", where N. obviously stands for North or Northern. Nowhere in that chart are Azeris or Western Turks plotted. N. Turks, most likely closer to original Turks in the genetic plane, are clearly grouped with East Asians and Amerindians, while the Caucasoid group also stands together clearly, with Indians, Lapps and Bebers somehow separated. Seeing where Greeks are plotted, I'm sue that Western Turks ans Azeris wouldn't be far away, in the case they were sampled for whatever measure they studied in that chart.

There is no Iranian race that includes Azeri Turks. Ossetians according to some sources are turks who have adopted an Eastern Iranian language. Stalin was an ossetian and his profile is closer to a turk than an Iranian. Yes. Afghans, Persians, Pashtuns are Iranians. Kurds are originate from Medes. Yes. Medes or Kurds are med type people. Iranians such as Persians , tajiks etc are not med type people. The chart is a genetic chart from Cavalli Sforza book. It measures the genetic closeness of different groups. All Iranians in Iran plus all Azeris regard Azeris as turks. Only outside Iran they talk about Azeris as the same people as original people of Iran which is not the case. Just look up Seljuk turks on the internet and it  confirms it. Even the Republic of Azerbaijan official government position is that they are Turks.
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Posts: 106 		  Quote oslonor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 19:00
Originally posted by Zagros

Persian is not a racial designation like all others in Iran, they are purely cultural, the majority of all groups in Iran share similarity in genetics, the difference is in culture.  I have seen Kurds who look like Scandinavians and I have seen Kurds who look like Indians, the same with Persians AND Azaris.

Everyone everywhere is mixed and outside of Africa, Iran is among the most genetically diverse countries.

Maju, I wouldn't rely to much on those pie things, as sampling especially from regions like Iran have not been properly carried out, as in by regional ethnicity. 


The people who established the Persian empire were Persians. Those people are still alive and live in Iran. Now some Azeris have come in 10 century originating from Seljuk Turks. These people now claim that there are no more Persians and there are no ethnic groups in Iran. The only one is Azeri Turks who live in Tehran. Sorry this is a fairy tale. There is a clear demarcation between how a Persian look like and how an Azeri look like. Check my blog for pictures. Your statements make as much sense as saying that I have seen swedes with blond hair and I have seen swedes looking like Africans. Those Swedes looking like africans are "mixed race" swedes.
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 19:11
I drop from this pointless discussion. Oslonor: you do nothing but talking of race all the time and repeating sentences like "There is no Iranian race that includes Azeri Turks". It seems you have an obsession with both races (which is a concept that can only be applied to pets and cattle) and Azeris (who aren't "racially" Turks, even if they belong to the Turkic cultural and linguistic area). Well, it's your problem, enjoy your repetitions at Stormfront or forums of the like. 

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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 19:33

I do not need to look at your site to see how my people look, I can look in the mirror or family pictures to see what Persians, Azeris and Kurds look like.

Median/Persian nomads migrated into western Iran from CA 3000 years ago, they became the elite of already long established civilisations.  The Persians and Medians at that time, would be fair to say, had a predominantly more Europid look (as opposed to ME look).  However, they DID mix with the indigenous populations and the result is what we see in Iran today. The Same thing happened with Turks regarding Azaris, though when they came the indigenous populations were far denser thatn they were 2000 years previous.  Those pics you have unashamedly infringed upon from iranian.com and baklhtiaritribe.com prove nothing, they are very selective.

I would also like to ask, where do you get your half baked notions on Iranians from? 

 



Edited by Zagros
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Posts: 106 		  Quote oslonor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 20:07
Originally posted by Maju

I drop from this pointless discussion. Oslonor: you do nothing but talking of race all the time and repeating sentences like "There is no Iranian race that includes Azeri Turks". It seems you have an obsession with both races (which is a concept that can only be applied to pets and cattle) and Azeris (who aren't "racially" Turks, even if they belong to the Turkic cultural and linguistic area). Well, it's your problem, enjoy your repetitions at Stormfront or forums of the like. 

In that case Coon was also a member of Stormfront as he described Irano-Afghan race. Anthropology as a science is based on race concept. I have presented overwhelming evidence on Azeris.
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Posts: 106 		  Quote oslonor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 20:15
Originally posted by Zagros

I do not need to look at your site to see how my people look, I can look in the mirror or family pictures to see what Persians, Azeris and Kurds look like.

Median/Persian nomads migrated into western Iran from CA 3000 years ago, they became the elite of already long established civilisations.  The Persians and Medians at that time, would be fair to say, had a predominantly more Europid look (as opposed to ME look).  However, they DID mix with the indigenous populations and the result is what we see in Iran today. The Same thing happened with Turks regarding Azaris, though when they came the indigenous populations were far denser thatn they were 2000 years previous.  Those pics you have unashamedly infringed upon from iranian.com and baklhtiaritribe.com prove nothing, they are very selective.

I would also like to ask, where do you get your half baked notions on Iranians from? 

 

I do not know what do you mean by selective? Do you mean those people are not Persians?  Persians look the same today as they looked 2000 years ago. It is not  clear what you are trying to say. Mede or Persians are not the same people. They are different ethnic groups. It seems you do not even know the difference between a Kurd and a Persian. That is an elementary knowledge in Iran.
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 20:44
Originally posted by oslonor

Originally posted by Maju

I drop from this pointless discussion. Oslonor: you do nothing but talking of race all the time and repeating sentences like "There is no Iranian race that includes Azeri Turks". It seems you have an obsession with both races (which is a concept that can only be applied to pets and cattle) and Azeris (who aren't "racially" Turks, even if they belong to the Turkic cultural and linguistic area). Well, it's your problem, enjoy your repetitions at Stormfront or forums of the like. 

In that case Coon was also a member of Stormfront as he described Irano-Afghan race. Anthropology as a science is based on race concept. I have presented overwhelming evidence on Azeris.


I don't know much about Coon. But you have not presented a bit of evidence on Azeris as you say. The only reference you presented doesn't even mention Azeris, while on the other hand you arrogantly despise well documented scientific papers that place Azeris and Iranians side by side.

Anthopology is not based in the concept of race, that's a pseudo-something. Anthropology is the stude of human being and its cultural behaviour, it includes ethnicity but only barely touches biology. Another thing is if you mean Anthropometry a pseudo-science widely questioned nowadays, as many apparent human traits such as color of skin, eyes and hair, constitution and, the most questioned of all: the shape of head are only partly a product of genetics, and often nothing but a by-product of climate in regional selection. It is very clear that blondisms are not a specific trait of any "race" or specific ethnic group but that they are widely spread among Caucasoids, being part of their genetic variability. Blonidsm is not related to Iranian or IE or Swede. There are many perfectly pure non-IEs (Lapps, Basques) that are blonde and many native Scandinavians that aren't.

Anyhow in pics:

These are Kazaks (genetically close to East Asians):

 

And these are Azeris (related to Western Asians):


The first look Tibetan or Mongol to me while the others could look even Spaniards.

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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 20:55
And these are some Iranian people I pick up from a search just fro comparison:




They may have some diferences with Azeris but the don't look Swedes to me.

Examples of Swedish:

 

Do they look like Iranians? Maybe... not too much anyhow.


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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 20:56

Na, seems you're the one incompetent in that area.  I was born in Iran and unlike you, I  have Persian and Kurdish blood. Yes, you're right for once, Iranians in general do look as they did 2000 years ago, we have various Greek and Roman sources stating as much.

I don't know what your point is.

Your pictures are selective in that they are NOT random pictures, YOU have selected them based on their aesthetic appeal to white nationalists, as I duly noted in your SF posts.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 21:04

Alans-A Alans-B]

You dont kno what ur talking about, Stalin was Georgian, above u see Ossetians.
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Posts: 106 		  Quote oslonor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 21:23
Originally posted by Zagros

Alans-A Alans-B]

You dont kno what ur talking about, Stalin was Georgian, above u see Ossetians.


Stalin was a real Ossetian. These are pictures are Russian mixes. They look very Russian.
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Posts: 106 		  Quote oslonor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 21:29
Originally posted by Zagros

Na, seems you're the one incompetent in that area.  I was born in Iran and unlike you, I  have Persian and Kurdish blood. Yes, you're right for once, Iranians in general do look as they did 2000 years ago, we have various Greek and Roman sources stating as much.

I don't know what your point is.

Your pictures are selective in that they are NOT random pictures, YOU have selected them based on their aesthetic appeal to white nationalists, as I duly noted in your SF posts.


Why I should appeal to white nationalist? I am not in any way related to white natioanlist. Actually If you read my blog, I am on the opposite side of white nationalist. Persians do not have hooked noses with connecting eyebrows and Azeri turkish eyes. I certainly will not post those pictures as Persians. I do not think you are Persian or Kurd. Otherwise you would know the difference between them and would not write Persian/Mede as the same people. In addition to that you have written that ethnic groups are just cultural groups. No Kurd or Persian would write that. Only Azeris can write such things.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 21:35

Aminianus Marcellinus, 4c AD:

"Among all these people of various tongues there are differences of
physical type as wel as situation. But if I am to give a general
description of their appearance and character, I would say that they are
almost all slight in build with a darkish or livid  and
bloodless complexion.  their eyes are like goats' eyes and have a grim expression. Their eyebrows are arched in a semicircle and meet in the middle. They have handsome beards and wear their hair long. All without distinction carry swords in their girdles even at banquets and on public feast days"
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 21:37
Originally posted by oslonor

Originally posted by Zagros

Alans-A Alans-B]

You dont kno what ur talking about, Stalin was Georgian, above u see Ossetians.


Stalin was a real Ossetian. These are pictures are Russian mixes. They look very Russian.

These are descendants of the Sarmatians, another branch of Iranians. Stalin was half Georgian!

Those pictures of Ossetian Alans are also EXACTLY as Aminianus Marcellinus described them too. Do a bit of research using ACADEMIC sources as a reference, stop making nonsense up on the spot.



Edited by Zagros
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 21:37
Originally posted by Zagros

Na, seems you're the one incompetent in that area.  I was born in Iran and unlike you, I  have Persian and Kurdish blood. Yes, you're right for once, Iranians in general do look as they did 2000 years ago, we have various Greek and Roman sources stating as much.

I don't know what your point is.

Your pictures are selective in that they are NOT random pictures, YOU have selected them based on their aesthetic appeal to white nationalists, as I duly noted in your SF posts.



Zagros: except the Kazak pics that I did select not to include any Russian ethnical, all the rest are just the first pics that I found under that national tag in an Alltheweb image search.

I didn't post any Ossetian btw.

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That post was to Oslonor, Maju.
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