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Turkmen and Hungarians

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  Quote minchickie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turkmen and Hungarians
    Posted: 08-Jul-2005 at 05:29

Turkmen and Hungarians: the Past and the Present
/06.09.2005/

Some time ago, Hungarian Orientalist and explorer Armin Vamberi who visited Turkmenistan in the 19th century and collected many valuable materials about our country made a conclusion that The Turkomans (in the mediaeval times the Hungarians were referred to as Turkomans, O.G.) living from here to the Adriatic Sea, or living on the banks of the Danube River, Western Turks in that point can be related to one family with the Central Asiatics not relying on the physiognomic features but the similarity between their language, character and customs.

This fact is supported in the work On the Relations of Turkmen and Old Turkic languages with the Magyar language (Ashgabat, 1985) by a Turkmen philologist Ya. Chungaev. While comparing the Hungarian words with the Turkmen ones the identity of some of them is obvious, for example, Hung. agg (aged) Turk. aga (oldest), Hung. alma (an apple) Turk. alma (an apple), Hung. ata (father) Turk. ata (father, grandfather), Hung. arpa (barley) Turk. agra (barley), Hung. balta (an axe) Turk. palta (an axe), Hung. kes (a knife) Turk. kesmek (to cut), Hung. kazan (a big pot) Turk. gazan (a pot), Hung. ki (who) Turk. kim (who), Hung. pamut (cotton) Turk. pamyk (cotton), Hung. ter (arena) Turk. tor (an honorary place), Hung. taray (a comb) Turk. darak (a comb), Hung. derek (a tree trunk) Turk. derek (a poplar), Hung. tary (millet) Turk. dary (millet), Hung. teve (a camel) Turk. duye (a camel) and others.

So, where does this cognation originated from? The latest linguistic research convinces that the place of origin of the Altaian (Turkic and Mongol languages) and the Ural (including the Finno-Ugric languages) language families is Central Asia and the adjoining northern regions of Iran. Belonging to the Europeoid race by their anthropological type the Altaians and the Uralians spread far off to the east and north and absorbed the Mongoloid elements. At the beginning of the 20th century an Americanist P. Rive wrote that the region to the east of the Caspian Sea was the centre of settling of the Uralian-Altaian tribes who spread all over Central Asia later. Predicating upon the results of analysis of the archaeological cultures the famous scientist S. P. Tolstov made a conclusion that the Uralians had lived in Central Asia and he associated them with the Keltiminar culture of Northern Turkmenistan.

The Hungarians ancestors mainly moved away to the Volga and the Ural steppes and forests, where they met with Huns, the Turkmen peoples ancestors. The Ugrians (Hungarians) formed a part of the new Hunnic union of tribes. Very likely, from that moment they started to call themselves Hungars (that is, Hunnic people) or Ogrians (Ugrians), the western historians regarded them as Turks. N. A. Baskakov wrote that the names Ogur and Oghuz present two variants of one and the same word differing in the phonetic conformity of the sounds r-z typical for some Turkic languages. According to him, on-Ogur corresponds to on-oguz (ten Oghuzes, that is the Oghuz tribes), kutrigur otuz oguz (thrity Oghuzes) and saraguz sary oguz (yellow Oghuzes). It is remarkable that the Turkmen have preserved the dialect differences in the ethnic groups. For example, Ogur can be compared to Uger (Uker), an Oghuz tribe, and to Ogurjali, a subsequent Turkmen tribe, and a clan of Turkmen-Nohurli Ogry. The medieval Turkic-Bulgarian tribes living in the Aral-Caspian region are also related to Ugrians Ogorians.

Moving together with the Huns to Central Europe the Hungarians established a small state in Pannonia. The other part of the Hungarians called Magyars wandered to the regions between the Dniestr River and the Dnieper River. When in 898 the Oghuz-Pecheneg tribes were forced out by their congeners from the Volga steppes to the west Magyars were the first to be struck. A Byzantine author Constantine the Scarlet-Born wrote in the 10th century that Turks (i.e. Hungarians) lived near the Khazar Sea, then a part of them moved to Persia and the other part advanced to Central Europe. Hungrains advanced to the Danube Valley where they defeated their congeners (the remnants of the Ugrians, the Huns and the Avars) settled in Pannonia. Shortly after they allied with the Kavar tribes. This fact is of great interest for us, as S. P. Tolstov associated Kavars with Khwarezmians, i.e. the inhabitants of Northern Turkmenistan.

On coming to the throne after the death of king Istvan (St Stephen), King Peter deluged Hungary with Germans and Italians and forced out the Magyar aristocracy. The people of Hungary rebelled and brought Samuil Abu (1041-1044), a descendant of the rulers of Khwarezm Eda and Edumer, the husband of King Stephens sister, to power. His love to the people and tolerance was mentioned in all the Hungarian chronicles.

The fact that 16 letters of the mediaeval Hungarian script were similar to some letters of the Gyok-Turkmen alphabet can attest to the Turkmen-Hungarian ties.

In 1114, a new surge of the Turkic tribes came to Central Europe. They were the Oghuz horsemen who had suffered a defeat in the battles with the Kipchak tribes near the Don. Crossing the Carpathian Mountains they came to the lands of Czechia, Slovakia and Hungary. The role they played in the political life of those states is enormous. King Tokson designated two Pecheneg khans as the rulers of the town of Pest, (the future capital of Hungary). An Oghuz soldier, Bayandyr (Berend) who saved King Charles I in 1330 is also mentioned in the Hungarian chronicles.

The Oghuzes in large quantity living in Ugria (Hungary) preserved their independence till the 14th century. In the course of consolidation of the Ugorian state the Oghuz khans were replaced with the kings representatives. However, for a long time the European Oghuzes preserved their military strength, and the young Oghuzes replenished the kings army. At the end of the 15th century, a Hungarian historian described them as using spears, growing long beard and moustaches and wearing hats and dress fly-away silk clothes like Persians.

In 1228, the Kipchak tribes defeated by the Mongolian hordes came to Hungary. King Bela let the detachment of 40 thousand Kipchak warriors headed by Khan Khotan settle between the Danube River and the Tisa River and in the eastern part of the country. Having known about it Batu Khan wrote King Bela a letter in which he threatened to devastate his lands if he continued protecting the Kipchak tribes (the Cumans) and let them live in his country.

But the Hungarians were not frightened. King Belas son married Khan Khotans daughter thereby strengthen the Hungarian-Kipchak ties. During the reign of King Ladislav (Laszlo), whose mother was a Polovtsian, the royal court consisted of the noble Kipchaks. The Kipchak customs and clothes were adopted by the Hungarians. An ethnic group of the Kipchak-Palozzi resides in Hungary till present times. The Hungarian scientist L. Kunkovich wrote: The Polovtsian tribes spoke their Kipchak-Turkic dialect until the 16th century, their governed independently of the Hungarian system up to 1876. Now they consider themselves the pure Hungarians, but are very proud of their Asian origin. Their names were taken to name two lowlands, Malaya and Bolshay Cumania (Kiskunsag and Nagykunsag).

In the Late Middle Ages the ties between Central Asia and Europe broke off. But the Hungarians still remembered that Central Asia was their ancestral land. In the 19th century Hungarian Orientalist and explorer A. Vamberi started a long journey to study the ancestral land of the Hungarians and then he published his recollections from his travels in Travels in Central Asia introducing the Europeans with the amazing world of the Turkmen.

Ovez GUNDOGDIEV,
Head of Department of Archaeology and Ethnology of the State Institute of Cultural Heritage of the Peoples of Turkmenistan, Central Asia and the Orient under the President of Turkmenistan
 
 
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2005 at 05:41

Originally posted by minchickie



Moving together with the Huns to Central Europe the Hungarians established a small state in Pannonia.

I am really curious for the evidences of this statement. I would be really amazed if this is true.

Originally posted by minchickie

Shortly after they allied with the Kavar tribes.
I think it was berfore the conquest. According to Constantine' DAI. The kavars were a brach of khazars. It would be really strange that the hungarians allied with them after they left Khazaria.

Originally posted by minchickie

The people of Hungary rebelled and brought Samuil Abu (1041-1044), a descendant of the rulers of Khwarezm Eda and Edumer, the husband of King Stephens sister, to power. His love to the people and tolerance was mentioned in all the Hungarian chronicles.

1. His name was Samuel Aba.

2. His ancestry is unknown. Probably he was kavar, but this is not proven.

Originally posted by minchickie

In 1114, a new surge of the Turkic tribes came to Central Europe. They were the Oghuz horsemen who had suffered a defeat in the battles with the Kipchak tribes near the Don. Crossing the Carpathian Mountains they came to the lands of Czechia, Slovakia and Hungary. The role they played in the political life of those states is enormous. King Tokson designated two Pecheneg khans as the rulers of the town of Pest, (the future capital of Hungary).

1. Slovakia did not exist that time.

2. Who is this King Tokson? There were not any Hungarian king named Tokson. There was a Hungarian duke, but he lived on the X. century, not in the XII. century.

All in all this article seems rather inaccurate.

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  Quote minchickie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2005 at 07:36

1. Slovakia did not exist that time.

The author is making referrence to MODERN day Slovakia

2. Who is this King Tokson? There were not any Hungarian king named Tokson. There was a Hungarian duke, but he lived on the X. century, not in the XII. century.

Obviously he is referring to the tribesmen that took place there.

 

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2005 at 07:47
Originally posted by minchickie

1. Slovakia did not exist that time.

The author is making referrence to MODERN day Slovakia

2. Who is this King Tokson? There were not any Hungarian king named Tokson. There was a Hungarian duke, but he lived on the X. century, not in the XII. century.

Obviously he is referring to the tribesmen that took place there.

1. Well, it is possible.

2. I don't think. Not the leader of the immigrants granted land theirself, but the hungarian king. I suppose the author changed some names.

 

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  Quote yomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2013 at 07:41
 [english] yellow=[hungarian] sari = [turkmen]sara = s?rga

[english]black = [hungarian]komor = Coal in turkmen

[english]blue =[hungarian] kék =[turkmen] gok

[english]mother =[hungarian] anya mama =[turkmen] anne mama enne

[english]father = [hungarian]atya apa =[turkmen] ata

[english]two = [hungarian]két =[turkmen] iki

[english]what =[hungarian] mi = [turkmen]ne'mi

[english]she he it =[hungarian] o =[turkmen] o

[english]cat = [hungarian]macska =[turkmen] meshik

[english]dog = [hungarian]kutya eb =[turkmen] kopek / it / kujuk

[hungarian] menny (heaven) + dorog (d?r?g) (rumble) ? mennydorog (thundering)
[turkmen] yel'derog thundring yildrim lighting


[english]fish =[hungarian] kifog = [turkmen]kefir/ baligh

[english]take = [hungarian]kap = [turkmen]kak

[english]finger/sleeve   = [hungarian]ujj [turkmen] uj = tip

[english]five =[hungarian] ot ten = [turkmen]on

[english]kill = [hungarian]oles ol =[turkmen] oldir ol = die

you guys right about z and r most of turkish word which ends with z we turn them to r like kalmaz (TR)kalmar(TM)


Edited by yomud - 10-Dec-2013 at 04:33
yomud are free people
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