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Proto Indo-European

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Proto Indo-European
    Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 12:16
Interesting. But I can see no pics... you may have to be suscribed to Nature to see them, so I suggest that you download the images and upload them (great feature of this forum, btw!).

I can imagine the tree is simmilar to the one I posted above in this thread (that one I didn't have the source, with Greek in a very separated branch). Still I wonder why, if the earlier dates of agriculture this side of the Aegean are of the 7th milennium, the tree starts branching out in the 10th or 9th milennium, two or three thousand years before any farmer ever sowed anything in European lands.

Another question is on how, with all supposed IE-speaking Neolithic cultures erased from most of Europe by the spread of the (now non-IE) kurgans, IE did survive to those invasions.

I suspect the method isn't that good and needs checking.

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 04:50
There are enough holes in Renfrews' theory alone to warrant taking that data not too seriously.
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  Quote GoldenBlood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 11:23
Originally posted by hansel

check this out about indo-eurios

though high speculative

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/index8.html

(1873) The Albanian language is the oldest Indo-European idiom according to WEBSTERS NEW TWENTIETH CENTURY DICTIONARY, Unabridged Second Edition, De Luxe Color, William Collins and World ,Publishing Co.,Inc., ISBN: 0-539-048523-3

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  Quote GoldenBlood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 11:25
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  Quote GoldenBlood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 11:28
Celtic Branch
Welsh : Irish Gaelic : Scottish Gaelic : Breton
Cornish : Gaulish : Cumbrian : Manx : Galatian
Germanic Branch
English : Dutch : Flemish : Frisian : Afrikaans
German : Yiddish : Danish : Swedish : Norwegian
Faroes : Icelandic

Anglo Saxon : Old Norse : Frankish : Gothic
Lombardo : Visigoth : Vandal
Romance (Latin) Branch
Italian : Sardinian : French : Provencal : Catalonian
Spanish : Ladino : Galician : Portuguese : Romansh
Romanian : Moldavian

Latin : Oscan : Umbrian : Faliscan : Sabine : Dalmatian
Slavic Branch
Russian : Belorussian : Ukrainian : Polish : Sorbian
Czech : Slovak : Slovene : Croatian : Serbian
Kashubian : Bulgarian : Macedonian : Bosnian

Old Church Slavic
Baltic Branch
Lithuanian : Latvian
Prussian
Hellenic Branch
Modern Greek
Mycenaean : Koine : Byzantine Greek
Classical Greek (Attic : Doric, Ionic, Aeolic)
Illyric Branch
Albanian
Dacian : Illyric
Anatolian Branch
Hittite : Lydian : Lycian: Luwian : Palaic
Thracian Branch
Armenian
Thracian : Phrygian
Iranian Branch
Farsi : Kurdish : Pashto : Baluchi : Ossetian : Tadzhik
Persian : Avestan : Scythian
Indic Branch
Hindi : Urdu : Nepali : Bengali : Assamese : Oriya
Kashmiri : Punjabi : Sindhi : Marathi : Gujarati
Bhili : Lahnda : Maithili : Magahi
Konkani : Sinhalese : Maldivian : Romany

Sanskrit : Pali : Ardhamagadhi
Tokharian Branch
Turfanian : Kuchean

 

The link: http://www.krysstal.com/langfams_indoeuro.html

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 14:27
Cool. But the first tree is more than one century old, and the second (which is at least more logical in having Indo-Iranian more separated from Western languages, still seems pretty old. The Celto-Italic connection is obsolete and we should rather talk of Italo-Germanic (very much the same of Balto-Slavic) and Celtic could or could not be close to this Italo-Germanic branch.  The tree seems disproportionate in size for the dialects of Germanic and Latin and too close for the Indian and Iranian branches... it's distorted from European viewpoint. 

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  Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2006 at 01:43

Great Thread. What is everyone's opinion about the Indo-Uralic hypothesis for the origin of PIE?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Uralic_languages

"Indo-Uralic is a hypothetical language family consisting of Indo-European and Uralic (and maybe further related languages). The most common argument in favour of such a relationship is based on seemingly common elements of morphology, such as the pronominal roots *m- (first person) and *t- (second person), or the accusative case ending in *-m. There are other, less obvious correspondences being suggested, such as the Indo-European plural marker *-s and its Uralic counterpart *-t. Most linguists, however, consider the evidence insufficient. Nevertheless, Indo-European and Uralic languages look remarkably similar for neighbouring languages traditionally considered unrelated. One problem in the research is that often it is assumed that similar words in Uralic and Indo-European languages are loans from IE to Uralic, even if this is not chronologically possible.

Frederik Kortlandt supports a model of Indo-Uralic in which the original Indo-Uralic speakers lived north of the Caspian Sea, and the Proto-Indo-European speakers began as a group that branched off westward from there to come into geographic proximity with the Northwest Caucasian languages, absorbing a Northwest Caucasian lexical blending before moving farther westward to a region north of the Black Sea where their language settled into canonical Proto-Indo-European."



Edited by Odin
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2006 at 03:48
I think it just goes beyond our understanding. I tend to sympathize with the theories that melt IE with other "Siberian" languages but it's out of geographical approxiamtion - and the linguistic map 5000 years ago could actually be something more complex already than we can imagine.

What s quite clear is that IE and Uralic speakers expanded in parallel over NE Europe and probably come from neighbouring regions in the Ural area.

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  Quote Etherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2006 at 23:55

How does 'wid' which has an obvious 'v' sound as seen in all other language examples turn into 'idea


The *w sound was probably pronounced as in English, but that's not important. The important thing is that in Greek (where we get the word idea from) *w disappears. This disappearing of *w is seen in many words. IIRC, in very early Greek the sound hadn't disappeared yet. So the disappearance is actually recorded in the written Greek language.


what about inventing the 'gno' root in order to fit the Hellinic 'gignwskw' and the Latin loan 'gnocere' into the theory?


This root also occurs in Old Persian xnasatiy "he shall know;" Old Church Slavonic znati "to know;" and Sanskrit jna "to know." Oh, and of course English "know." More properly the root is *g'no.


I still fail to see how the Hellinic 'eis' / 'en' is connected to 'ekas'


The root is *oi but can be extended with *k as in Sanskrit, or *n as in many other languages. There's also a final *-os suffix which gives Greek -os and Sanskrit -as.


what about that 'tettares' that in reality is 'tessera' connected to 'catvaras'


This comes from *kWetwores (kW represents a labiovelar like the qu in quick). In Greek *kW regularly becomes t before front vowel (i and e). Also *tw becomes s. In Sanskrit the situation is somewhat more complicated but still regular. First *kW become *k. Then before front vowels the *k is palatalized and becomes c. Finally e becomes a. Early in the history of PIE studies PIE was assumed to have a sound system similar to Sanskrit. The recognition that PIE had an *e vowel (which Sanskrit lacks) was due to words like *kWetwores. It was difficult to explain why Sanskrit ca corresponded to ke in other languages if the e came from a, and why there were no Sanskrit ca corresponding to ka in other languages. Assuming PIE had *e and that Pre-Sanskrit palatalized K before e went a long way towards explaining the PIE vowel system.


We could continue with alleged roots like, '
su'= 'to be born' that they connected to 'uios'= son


I assume that uios is a Greek word. This would be explained because in Greek initial s became h. I think you'll find that uios in the written form will actually begin with the rough breathing mark (which indicates an initial h). The -ios is a common suffix in IE languages ( which comes from *yos).


'n' = 'not (from one letter!!!) connected to 'agnwstos' = unknown


Actually the PE not word had a couple forms, connect with PIE ablaut. As a particle it could be *ne. In compounds it would be *n. In the syllabic form in Greek *n became a (in English the n in button is syllabic) in most cases. Thus PIE *ngno becomes agno. Incidentally, the places where syllabic *n doesn't become a are perfectly regular too.


They have taken words from all 'forms' of Hellinic Linear B', Homeric and late classical Hellinic where and when it suits them.


Researchers are very careful about which dialect a word comes from, though in some cases it won't matter. Important differences arise in the different dialects. For example the rule that *kW becomes t before i and e doesn't hold in the Aeolian dialect of Greek. This change is only effective before i in that dialect.


But once again the problem that appears is that agricultural terms are quite different.


There certainly are some differences between languages. That's only natural because all languages lose words and borrow others. Often words change their meanings. The English word "gay" meant something completely different 100 years ago than what it's commonly taken to mean nowadays (though the old use is still occassionally used). Here are some PIE agricultural terms:

to sow *seh1 (h1 is a sound of uncertain pronunciation, but generally thought to be a glottal stop)
to plow *h2erh3 (h2 and h3 are two more uncertain sounds)
plow *h2erh3trom
land *h2eg'ros
to drive (e.g. cattle) *h2eg'
barley *gHersdH
quern *gWreh2uo:n (o: is a long o)
cow *gWeh3us
bull *teh2uros
sheep *h3euis
small livestock *pek'u
milking *h2melg'
butter *h3engWn
cheese *tuHris (here H represents h1, h2, or h3, the exact consonant is unknown)
horse *h1ek'wos
foal *po:lH
adult pig *suHs
young pig *pork'os
hare *k'h1s
dog *k'uo:n

I hope this helps clear up the question about whether PIE existed.

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  Quote Etherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 00:03

There are other, less obvious correspondences being suggested, such as the Indo-European plural marker *-s and its Uralic counterpart *-t.


My own pet theory is that the plural marker (assuming these two language families actually are related) was **-ti (I got the idea from Kartlandt). Uralic would have lost the **-i (or maybe not, some forms of the plural end in *i). In PIE the **ti first became *si then the final *i was lost. I also assume that PIE *ei came from and earlier stressed *i. This two hypotheses predict that there will be no PIE roots in *tei-. In fact, there are none (they would have all becomes *sei- roots if Indo-Uralic had any roots in *ti-). There are some suffixes that end in *ti but these are generally acknowledged to be late formations.
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  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 01:07

Championed by Nazi-Germany in search of the mythic Uber-Aryan race, which the Nazis never found by the way, this enduring Euro-centric, Indo-European myth is perhaps one of the greatest legacy of Heinrich Himmler.

It's truly sad how many people still buy into it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_race
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_archaeology

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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 02:29

It is a possibility that Indo-Europeans created the first known civilization in the Western Mediteranean Sea and around the Black Sea known by some as Atlantis. The melting of the Ice Age started the mass migration and exodus, and making the root languages around the world to be similar.

     
   
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  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 02:57
Originally posted by pekau

It is a possibility that Indo-Europeans created the first known civilization in the Western Mediteranean Sea and around the Black Sea known by some as AtlantisLOL. The melting of the Ice Age started the mass migration and exodus, and making the root languages around the world to be similar.




Of course we all know that  Indo-European race isn't even human. They came from outer space with superior knowledge and taught human beings high culture.LOL

If you buy that, I also have a bridge in Chappaquiddick to sell you.Wink


Edited by JuMong - 18-Feb-2007 at 02:59
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  Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 22:08
*BUMP*


I've become very interested in IE Studies recently so I wanted to revive this thread. And where the frigging heck is Maju? Cry I like all his posts on prehistoric Europe.

From various things I have read on PIE (most recently in the section on PIE in The Major Languages of the World) here is my hypothesis on the evolution and history of PIE:

Pre-PIE: Spoken among the first pastorialists around the Volga River. Uralic-like vowel harmony develops into the IE Ablaut as a result of vowel shifts and evolution in the grammatical system. Agglutination is lost as inflection becomes more dominant. There is no grammatical gender. The syntax is Ergative-Absolutive.

Early PIE: Spoken by the pre-Kurgan Samara culture of the middle Volga. The vowels are I, U, laryngeal-influenced E, and maybe A. Grammatical gender based on an animate-inanimate distinction develops. The syntax starts to become a Nominative-Accusative system.

Middle PIE: Spoken by the Sredny Stog and Early Yamna cultures north of the Black Sea and the Maykop culture of the western Caucasus. Continues trends in Early PIE. the Proto-Anatolian dialects of the Maykop culture become seperated from the other dialects. The laryngeals start to disappear in non-Maykop dialects.

Late PIE: Spoken in the late Yamna culture, the Corded Ware culture, and the proto-Greek Cotofeni culture. A masculine-feminine-neuter gender system develops. Laryngeals are gone, resulting in the Latin-type long/short A-E-I-O-U vowel system. The Satem sound shift begins in the eastern dialects.
"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."

-Arnold J. Toynbee
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  Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2008 at 01:44
Here is an interesting paper I ran into. it gives a very compelling argument that (Hittite excluded) the post-PIE proto-languages, Proto-Greek in particular, didn't change very much from PIE in phonology (pronunciation, stress, intonation, etc.) and grammar until the late 2nd Millennium BC (the start of the European Iron Age), most of the differences are in vocabulary (such as terms picked up from the non-IE peoples they absorbed). It also notes that this argues strongly against the Anatolian Farmer hypothesis

http://ling.lsa.umich.edu/grp/cldg/garrett.pdf
"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2008 at 11:07
I would recommend the book The horse, the wheel and language by D.W. Anthony, a fresh book (2008) that deals alot with the new view of the kurgan hypothesis (revised version by J.P. Mallory) and uses the latest archaeological and anthropological data that we have.
 
Alldo I consider myself quite "neutral" when it comes to PIE and it´s origin, I must say that this book is unbelivable good, especially when it gives more room for the archaeological and anthropological aspects without sacrificing the linguistic.
 
Cheers!
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2008 at 13:05
Originally posted by Azvarohi

I would recommend the book The horse, the wheel and language by D.W. Anthony, a fresh book (2008) that deals alot with the new view of the kurgan hypothesis (revised version by J.P. Mallory) and uses the latest archaeological and anthropological data that we have.
I've read about half of it via Google Books (contiguous chapters, nevertheless) and though I'm left with a general good impression on the book and almost persuaded by some of its arguments and conclusions, there're some things I noticed:
- The strength of the demonstration is uneven. The author tries to bring some archaeological arguments at the same level with the linguistic ones. However, historical linguistic phenomena like sound-shifts are attested and confirmed sometimes by hundreds of instances, in many different contexts, whereas most analogies for material culture included few parallels (occasionally only one). No matter how tempting would be to follow the author in his conclusions, a phenomenon like the satem shift looks to me much more probable to really have happened than most of the conclusions drawn from archaeological (or multi-disciplinary) premises.
- I'm not so sure about the methodologies behind this work. The author was fair enough to admit some of the archaeological literature on Eastern Europe and the Steppes is still plagued by "pots are people" paradigm, but he provided no key for extracting some relatively non-biased information from it (p. 18). Even so, getting a "selective and unavoidably imperfect synthesis" did not stop some conclusions to be put forward with relative certainty. I also did not understand how the concept "robust frontier" (p. 105) gets defined in a unequivocal way. How many customs make a "bundle of customs"? I guess that on a slightly different interpretation (or selection!) of the archaeological data and a degree of uncertainty in defining the robustness of frontiers, we'll be able to assign or not a dialect continuum to a Neolithic Eurasian culture.
- Though it's only my first read, I've spotted a geographical inaccuracy: "the southern Siret and Prut valleys in southeastern Romania (between Iasi and Bîrlad)". But Iasi is a town in northeastern Romania, while Bîrlad is in east, so the location would be northeastern (or eastern) Romania. Even the course of the rivers would be more accurately described as middle, not southern. Of course, it may be a small error, but it may affect the interpretation and also warns about other possible such errors.
- In Archaeology and Language, a collection of studies in several volumes edited by Roger Blench and Matthew Spriggs, I read some interesting articles (by James P. Mallory, Johanna Nichols and other scholars) on the homeland and the expansion of IE. The first impression is that this book avoids some of the criticism and considerations from these studies, but after reading more of it I'll be able to compare better this work with other recent studies.


Edited by Chilbudios - 24-Oct-2008 at 13:28
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  Quote svimpie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2009 at 09:48
Interesting, Chilbudios. Are there any problems with Anthony´s work concerning the archaeological? I know that there have been issues regarding his linguistical parts. If you would have the time a critical review of the book would be awesome!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2009 at 06:29
Originally posted by Sharrukin

Hmmm, I think you have old data.  The latest archaeological data I've gathered goes like this:

c. 6500-5000 BC - Dniester-Bug Culture begun by local hunter and fisher groups already inhabiting the region since Mesolithic times.  Beginning of experimental agriculture and cattle and pigs were domesticated, but principle mode of economy was still hunting and fishing.  Later gained contacts with Starcevo (Cris) and LBK agriculturalists.  To the east of the Dniester-Bug culture was the Sursko-Dnieper of similiar hunter-fisher origin.

c. 5500-4500 BC -  The full Neolithic Dnieper-Donets Culture superceded the Sursko-Dnieper Culture.  To the east of the Dnieper-Donets was the Neolithic Seroglasovo Culture of the region of the Volga, based on hunting-fishing and stockbreeding.  Seroglasovo was eventually succeeded by both Samara (displaying Dnieper-Donets characteristics)and Pre-Caspian Cultures

c. 4800-3500 BC - The Neolithic Cucuteni  (Tripolye) Culture formed from Moldavian Boian and LBK agrcultural elements reached the region of the former Dniester-Bug Culture by about 4500 BC.

c. 4500-3500 BC - The Eneolithic Sredny Stog Culture superceded the Dnieper-Donets Culture and becomes the eastern neighbor of Cucuteni-Tripolye.  It was based on stock-breeding, agriculture, hunting and fishing.  Eastern cultures with similar cultural traits included the Novodanilovka,and the Lower Mikhaylovka Culture.  Still further east the Khvalynsk Culture succeeded the Samara and Pre-Caspian Cultures and which displayed characteristics of stock-breeding, agriculture, hunting and fishing like the Ukrainian cultures.  Earliest evidence of domesticated horse, c. 4500 BC (horse-riding).  Compared to the west, the transition from Dnieper-Donets influenced cultures to the Khvalynsk Culture was a more gradual one, which may indicate cultural priority compared to the very similar Sredny Stog Culture in the west whose economy was almost radically different from that of preceding Balkan-origin economies. 

c. 4400-4300 BC Kurgan Wave I originated from Sredny Stog Culture.  The region of the northern Balkan Cucuteni Culture experienced dislocations but survived the onslought but now Kurgan peoples remained present with the cultural region of Cucuteni without amalgamation.  The Karanovo-Gumelita culture was destroyed.  Its population moved further west.  The Salcuta Culture was nearly destroyed.  Pockets of its population survived on in caves and islands for another four or five hundred years.  The region of the Vinca Culture witnessed dislocations of populations which moved further west.  End of Vinca Culture, c. 4300 BC.  Same situation with the Lengyel Culture.  Within the LBK Culture, a hybrid culture emerged known as Rossen.

c. 4000 BC  The Varna Culture of the Black Sea coast was replaced by the Kurganish Cernavoda Culture. 

c. 3900 BC  The Kurganish Baalberge Group emerged in the region of the Elbe and Saale.

c. 3600-2200 BC The Eneolithic Yamnaya Complex superceded the Sredny Stog-Khvalynsk Horizon, extending from the Danube Delta to beyond east of the middle Ural River, divided up into some nine cultural variants.  Both stock-breeding and agriculture were practiced.  First evidence of wheeled cart. 

c. 3500-3400 BC Kurgan Wave II.  Cucuteni which survived the First Wave was hybridized.  The result was the Usatovo Complex.  Further north elements of the Cucuteni, TRB, and Pontic cultures became the Globular Amphora Culture.  New hybrid cultures emerged in the Balkans such as the Baden-Vucedol and Ezero groups.  Ezero penetrated into western Anatolia.  Cotofeni, in the northcentral Balkans retained much of the Old European cultural tradition.

c. 3200-2300 BC Corded Ware Culture developed in northern Europe.  Its immediate antecedent was the Globular Amphora Culture of which it shared many characteristics but also showed characteristics similar to Yamnaya, including stock-breeding.  Like Yamnaya, it was expansive.  Its eastern variants are known as Battle-Axe cultures. 

c. 3000-2900 BC Kurgan Wave III.  The whole of the eastern Danube region disrupted and taken over by Yamnaya.  Vucedol migrated to the northwest and south into Dalmatia, western Bosnia, and Albania.  Vucedol succeeded by Vinkovci--Samogyvar Culture.  Evidence of Yamnaya penetration into Greece in Early Helladic II and III (c. 2900-2250 BC). 



a good stroy. but ıts only story. Can you show me which sources support this story.


Championed by Nazi-Germany in search of the mythic Uber-Aryan race, which the Nazis never found by the way, this enduring Euro-centric, Indo-European myth is perhaps one of the greatest legacy of Heinrich Himmler.

It's truly sad how many people still buy into it.


Clapthis is totally true. Reason is racism is never finished in  europa. İt still have a strong influce on Europan people.










Edited by İskit - 22-Sep-2009 at 06:38
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