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Alans in China

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  Quote Artorius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Alans in China
    Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 05:04

As for the Alans (also called Jases, Jasins), originaly from Caucasus, all of them were in military service. The most famous of them is the family of Atachi, whose father Kanguz (Khankus) was the leader of one of several Jasin state formations.
During the Mongol invasion, Kanguz and his citizens did not resist Ugedei-Khan, so he remained a ruler of his lands and also given was given a golden sign of honor (Golden Paitza) and title of 'badur'. At Mongol's order he formed an army of 1,000 men strong and put his son Atachi as its commander.

Atachi under Moengke-Khan, participated in the campaign against Soun, fought Chinese armies in Sichuan province and Tiao-uy mountains. For his bravery he was awarded the badge of honor (Tiger Paitza), got silver and the title of 'commander of 1,000'.
Under Kublai(Khubilai)-Khan, he fought against the Chingizids, that opposed the Yuan dynasty. Atachi fought against Arigbuka, then supressed rebellion in China, in 1267 again campaigned agains Soun, under Mongolian warlords Bayan and Asha. During his military career, Atachi participated in more than 20 major battles in China and Central Asia.

Atachi was succeeded by his son Baidar. He too commanded thousand wariors and battled Chingisids in Eastern Turkestan, Dzhetysou, and Mongolia, reaching the Altai mountains. In 1285 he stood out during the supression of rebellion at Besh-Balyk against Kublai-Khan.
For his ahievements Baidar was granted a honorary title of 'as-badur-darugatchi'.

Baidar died in 1300, his positions were passed to his sons Oros and Fudin. Baidar was at the origins of creation of Imperial Guard regiments, formed from Jases. The first regimens were formed in 1272 and included 3,000 Jases. Also, 700 more Jases were bodyguards of Kublai-Khan during his trips, and keepers in emperor's city and palaces.

'YUAN-SHI' has the biographies of Jases: George (Kouertzi), Shari (Cheli). Shilabadur, Badur, Youvashi, Fude (Peter), and Arslan that were honored on Mongolian military service.

George (Kouertzi) began his carrier under the mentorship of Fude's father during the reign of Moengke-Khan in the Imperial Guard, and later commanded Jasin regiment 2,000 men strong.
During Kublai-Khan reign, George with 100 warriors (under leadership of warlord Ashu) participated in campaign against Soun. After victory in Soun, George commanded army of Jases battling the army of warlord Haidu. For military achievements he was promoted by rulers: Kublai-Khan, Timour-Khan, Haisan-Khan.
During Khaisan-Khan reign, George held a position of 'chzhalkhuachi', he commanded the Right Wing of Jasin Guard.

Demidir (Dmitri) was George's son. Demidir also served in the Jasin Guard, where he led a hundred men. Became famous during the supression of uprising of Mongolian regional ruler Nayan. After George's death Demidir was a successor of his title as a commander of Jasin Guard. Demidir's son Sianshan also served in Jasin Guard during the reign of Haisan and Ayurbarvad.
George and Demidir (Dmitri), judging by their names, were Christians.

Shari was descended from Jasin family that submitted to the Mongols and joned their army. His father Bekkibai (Betzeba) under Moengke-Khan fought in China, in Tiao-uy mountains and was decorated for his military deals. Under Kublai-Khan he fought against Haidu army. He became famous after the battle near Baikal Lake where he beheaded Haidu, the enemy of Kublai-Khan and captured huge amounts of cattle.
After the creation of the Jasin Guard, Shari commanded the Left Wing of the Jasin Guard, was decorated by Golden and Tiger badges and plenty of gifts. Shari's positions were passed to his son Shilemyn.

Shilabadur's family also collaborated with Mongols. His father Yruktama started his carrier from low post of 'header of ten' in the times of Moengke-Khan. In Kublai-Khan's time Shilabadur participated in wars against Soun, being included in army of warlord Bayan. His direct commander was Atachi. Shilabadur served under Atachi's command, and for his bravery during the supression of local uprisings of Mongol regional rulers: Nayan, Hadaan, Toto and others. the Imperor granted him the title of 'badur' and put his in head of 1,000 Jasin Guard warriors.

Shilabadur's sun Nogaichin (Nakhaichan) succeeded his father, and later commanded the Left Wing of the Jasin Guard. 'YUAN-SHI' lists in details many of his pompous titles and decorations. Nogaichin died in 1325.

Other notable leaders of Mongolian Army were Jases: brothers Badur, Utzoer-Bukhan (Anzorbuka), and Matarsha. They enlisted to Mongolian military service yet during Moengke-Khan's reign.
Matarsha was in the vanguard of Moengke-Khan's army during the war against Soun, and was killed in battle. Badur actively participated in more than 20 battles against Chinese armies. For military success Kublai-Khan put 1,000 Jases of under his command. Atachi became Badur's direct commander. Under his command, Badur fought in China and later became second in command of the Jasin Guard. Badur participated in supression of local uprisings of Mongol regional rulers.
Badur was succeded by his son Betzelan. For his service, Betzelan was decorated by the imperor Yesun-Timour by two sets of imperor clothing, by Tiger Paitza,and by three pearls and weaponry (bow with arrows, and armour). Betzelan was succeded by his son Eliande.

Another famous Jasin family at Yuan court was that of the Jas Yuvashi, whose father Yanbadur (Elibadur) submitted to Mongolians together with Jasin warlord Kanguz. In 1258, on the orders of Moengke-Khan Yanbadur was accepted to the Jasin Guard. He also fought for the Imperor and was rewarded with golden jewellery. Yanbadur commanded Jasin army, fought against Arigbuka and Chinese insurgents, participated in capture of Siantan and Chinese cities on Yantze River.

As 'MANUER-sh*tZI' notes, in the war against the Chingizids, enemies of Yuan throne, the Jases fought in alliance with Kipchak regiments of Kublai_Khan's army. After the death of Yanbadur, his position was inherited by his son Yesudar, that commanded the Jasin regiments in the capture of Yanchzhou.

After the death of Yesudar, his younger brother Yuvashi became a commander of the Jasin regiment, 1,000 men strong. Yuvashbi, under command of warlord Bayan participated in many wars, was decorated by Golden Paitza, and was given title of 'great warlord of long-range campaigns'. During the supression of Nayan's rebellion, Yuvashi captured the leader. The Imperor gave him extensive gifts and titles, and title of 'warlord, the pillar of the state'.
His seccessors were his son Eikiratai (Eitzilitai) and his grandson Baichou.

Nigela (Nikola) and Elia (Ilia) came from noble Christian families, that embraced Mongol Rule by coming to Moengke-Khan with theri courtiers (30 men). Elia become famous in campaign against Soun and Lytan rebellion. His son served under Kublai-Khan and in 1312 became a leader of Jasin regiment 1,000 men strong, and later he became a commander of the Left Wing of the Jasin Guard.

Arslan was one of Jasin rulers, that submitted to Mongolian army without a fight, when they approached his city. Half of Arslan's warriors joined the Mongolian army.
His elder son, Asanchen was killed during a campaign when Mongolian army was attacked by 'tuerge' whom TU TZI identifies with Cherkes- sians.
Then Arslan sent to Mongolian militarty service his younger son Nigela (Nikola). Nigela distinguished himself in battles under Mongol commander Ulankhatai, who gave him a horse and gold.
Nigela was killed by an arrow in Soun war. His son Khourdudar (Khurduda) commanded a Jasin regiment, 100 men strong. At the orders of Kublai-Khan he fought the Nayan insurrection, and died from wounds. His son Khudu-Timour served in court of imperor Haisan, fought against armies of Haidu. Khudu-Timour was promoted to the position of Deputy of the Right Wing of Jasin Guard.

According to Chinese sources, 10,000 Jases served in Mongolian army in China, mostly in Jasin Guard. In 1286 the Jasin Guard was officially created. Jasin Guard took active part in wars against Soun and suffered heavy losses. In two regions of Yuan Empire: Chaokhe and Sougu, Jasin military settlements were organized. Their tasks included the equipment of the army with weapons and other military accessories. After Soun campaign all Jasin regiments were included in Jasin Guard.

Source: http://www.canada-osetia.net/iryston/alans_in_china.html

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 05:37

Alans originated not from the caucasus, that's where they've lived for the past two thousand years.

Their language is more akin to Pathan/Pashto than any other Iranian group and they are widely accepted as the descendants of the Sarmatians.  They were far more widespread in Asia and Eastern Europe before the Hunnic invasions.

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 15:41

welcome to the forum, very nice article...

btw, Alans are in fact Massagetae that have joined Sarmatians. Alans have always been described as being different from the other Sarmatian tribes.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2005 at 13:12
That was a nice article Artorius. The Sarmatians are one of the
most mysterious Iranic peoples that we have information on. As
you all probably know, they heavily influenced the Roman
military as well as lands as far as what is now the United
Kingdom. I was reading one of the Osprey military books on
them and what the author was saying was that originally many
people regarded the Sarmatians as the "father" of the Slavs,
however, this theory is widely disregarded nowadays.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 01:22

btw, Alans are in fact Massagetae that have joined Sarmatians. Alans have always been described as being different from the other Sarmatian tribes.

The Alans originated in Kazakhstan and only by about AD 50 reached the the Don and the North Caucasus.  There probably was a Massagetian component to the Alans but there probably was an Issedonian one as well as well as a western Sarmatian one.   Archaeology reveals that the culture of the Alans was variable; one Alan region being different from another, and thus the Alans had multiethnic origins.  The Chinese knew them as the Antsai and Yentsai, which has led scholars to consider that some Alan tribe may have given their name for a division of the early Slavs, such as the Antae. 

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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2005 at 04:56
Originally posted by Sharrukin

The Alans originated in Kazakhstan and only by about AD 50 reached the the Don and the North Caucasus.  There probably was a Massagetian component to the Alans but there probably was an Issedonian one as well as well as a western Sarmatian one.   Archaeology reveals that the culture of the Alans was variable; one Alan region being different from another, and thus the Alans had multiethnic origins.  The Chinese knew them as the Antsai and Yentsai, which has led scholars to consider that some Alan tribe may have given their name for a division of the early Slavs, such as the Antae. 

Agreed on it.

Zagros is claiming thet Alans were speaking a kind of Pashtun language. No , today even if we do not enough data on their languages it is claimed that they are related with Ossetians.

On the other hand Ossetians call Balkars who are a Turkic group of Caucasus, and most probably they are related with Bulgars, as Asi. Asi is an alternative name for Alans and after a period of time the name Alan has been replaced by As.

Even if the Alan names such as Addak, Kandak, Sandak is tried to be explained by an Ossetian suffix -eg, -ag, -dag these suffixes and names can be explained by Turkish etymology as well. Even the name Alan can be expalined by Turkish. Alan means plain (steppe) in Turkish. And the name As or Az is widely used by Turkish tribes such as Az-  eri, Kaz - ar, Uz - bek, Kaz -ak. There are Turkmen tribes called as Alan. They are a part of Salur tribe of Oghuzs.

The Osset-Alan relation is a vague but widely accepted, but not fully, by academic circles. The scientific methods to explain this relationship is not efficient and sufficient undermining other alternatives. 

 

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2005 at 05:29

No I didn't claim they spoke a kind of Pashtun language, I claimed it is more related with those of Pashtun (being an Eastern Iranian Language) than with any other existing one (other than Ironian (Ossetian)).

Anyway, here is Wikipedia on the issue:

Alans

Alans

The Alans or Alani were an Iranian nomadic group among the Sarmatian people, warlike nomadic pastoralists of mixed backgrounds, who spoke an Iranian language and shared, in a broad sense, a common culture.

Early Alans

The first mentions of names that historians link with "Alani" appear almost at the same time in Greco-Roman geography and somewhat later Chinese dynastic chronicles of the 1st century BCE. The Geography (book 23, ch.XI.v) of Strabo, who was born in Pontus on the Black Sea, but was also working with Persian sources, to judge from the forms he gives to tribal names, mentions Aorsi that he links with Siraces and claims that a Spadines, king of the Aorsi, could assemble two hundred thousand mounted archers in the mid-1st century BCE. But the "upper Aorsi" from whom they had split as fugitives, could send many more, for they dominated the coastal region of the Caspian Sea

"and consequently they could import on camels the Indian and Babylonian merchandise, receiving it in their turn from the Armenians and the Medes, and also, owing to their wealth, could wear golden ornaments. Now the Aorsi live along the Tanas, but the Siraces live along the Achardes, which flows from the Caucasus and empties into Lake Maeotis."

Secure identifications of names and places in the ancient Chinese chronicles are even more speculative, but some centuries later, the Later Han Dynasty Chinese chronicle, the Hou Han Shu (covering the period from 25 - 220), mentioned a report that the steppe land Yen-tsai was now known as Alan-liao. (阿蘭聊:

"The Kingdom of Yancai (Yen-ts'ai, "Vast Steppe") has changed its name to the kingdom of Alanliao. Its capital is the town of Di. It is a dependency of Kangju (centered on Tashkent). The climate is mild. Wax trees, pines, and white grass (aconite) are plentiful. Their way of life and dress are the same as those of Kangju."

In another section the Hou Han Shu reported :

It is said : Some 2000 li (832 km) to the north-west from Kang-ch is the state of Yen-tsai. The trained bowmen number 100,000. It has the same way of life as Kang-ch. It is situated on the Great Marsh, which has no [further] shore [and which is presumably the Northern Sea].

The "Great Marsh" may be the wetlands at the delta of the Danube, which were a formidable obstacle that slowed the westward drift of many nomads or even more impressive marshes of present day Belarus and north Ukraine. Thus at the beginning of the 1st century, the Alans had occupied lands in the northeast Azov Sea area, along the Don. The written sources suggest that from the second half of the 1st to 4th century the Alans had supremacy over the tribal union and created a powerful confederation of Sarmatian tribes. The Alans made trouble for the Roman Empire, with incursions into both the Danubian and the Caucasian provinces in the 2nd and 3rd centuries.

Archaeological finds support the written sources. Late Sarmatian sites were first identified with the historical Alans by P.D. Rau. Based on the archaeological material, they were one of the Iranian-speaking nomadic tribes that began to enter the Sarmatian area between the middle of the 1st and the 2nd century.

The Alani were first mentioned in Roman literature in the 1st century and were described later as a warlike people that specialized in horse breeding. They frequently raided the Parthian empire and the Caucasian provinces of the Roman Empire. In the Vologeses inscription one can read that Vologeses, the Parthian king, in the 11th year of his reign, battled Kuluk, king of the Alani.

This inscription is supplemented by the contemporary Jewish historian, Josephus (37100), who reports in the Jewish Wars (book 7, ch. 8.4) how Alans, (whom he calls a "Scythian" tribe) living near the Sea of Azov, crossed the Iron Gates for plunder and defeated the armies of Pacorus, king of Media, and Tiridates, King of Armenia, two brothers of the Vologeses I for whom the inscription was made:

"4.Now there was a nation of the Alans, which we have formerly mentioned somewhere as being Scythians, and inhabiting at the Lake Meotis. This nation about this time laid a design of falling upon Media, and the parts beyond it, in order to plunder them; with which intention they treated with the king of Hyrcania; for he was master of that passage which king Alexander shut up with iron gates. This king gave them leave to come through them; so they came in great multitudes, and fell upon the Medes unexpectedly, and plundered their country, which they found full of people, and replenished with abundance of cattle, while nobody durst make any resistance against them; for Pacorus, the king of the country, had fled away for fear into places where they could not easily come at him, and had yielded up everything he had to them, and had only saved his wife and his concubines from them, and that with difficulty also, after they had been made captives, by giving them a hundred talents for their ransom. These Alans therefore plundered the country without opposition, and with great ease, and proceeded as far as Armenia, laying all waste before them. Now Tiridates was king of that country, who met them, and fought them, but had like to have been taken alive in the battle; for a certain man threw a net over him from a great distance, and had soon drawn him to him, unless he had immediately cut the cord with his sword, and ran away, and prevented it. So the Alans, being still more provoked by this sight, laid waste the country, and drove a great multitude of the men, and a great quantity of the other prey they had gotten out of both kingdoms, along with them, and then retreated back to their own country."

Flavius Arrianus ('Arrian') marched against the Alani in the 1st century and left a detailed report (Ektaxis kata Alanoon or 'War Against the Alans') that is a major source for studying Roman military tactics, but doesn't reveal much about the Alans.

The 'western' Alans and Vandals

About 370 the Alans were overwhelmed by the Huns. They were divided into two groups. One group fled westward. These 'western' Alani joined the Germanic nations in their invasion of Roman Gaul. Gregory of Tours mentions that their king Respendial saved the day for the Vandals in an armed encounter with the Franks at the crossing of the Rhine (c. 407). Although some of the Alani settled in Iberia, most went to North Africa with the Vandals.

Following the fortunes of the Vandals into Spain, the separate ethnic identity of the western Alans dissolved. In 426, the western Alan king, Attaces, was killed in battle against the Visigoths, and this branch of the Alans subsequently appealed to the Vandal king Gunderic to accept the Alan crown. Later Vandal kings in North Africa styled themselves Rex Wandalorum et Alanorum (King of the Vandals and Alans).

Along with the Vandals and Suevi, these Alans eventually reached the shores of Gibraltar.

In Iberia, the Alans were famous for their massive hunting and fighting dogs, which they introduced to Europe. A giant breed of dog still called Alano survives in the Basque region of northeastern Spain. The dogs, which are traditionally used in boar hunting and cattle herding, are associated with the massive dogs that Alans and Vandals brought into Spain.

Alans and Slavs

Alan tribes living north of the Black Sea may have moved northwest into what is now Poland, merging with Slavic peoples there to become the precursors of historic Slav nations (notably Serbs and Croats). Third-century inscriptions from Tanais, a town on the Don River in modern Ukraine, mention a nearby Alan tribe called the Choroatos or Chorouatos. The historian Ptolemy identifies the 'Serboi' as a Sarmatian tribe who lived north of the Caucasus, and other sources identify the Serboi as an Alan tribe in the Volga-Don steppe in the third century.

Accounts of these names reappear in the fifth century, with the Serboi, or Serbs, established east of the river Elbe in what is now western Poland, and the Croats in what is now Polish Galicia. The Alan tribes likely moved northeast and settled among the Slavs, dominating and mobilizing the Slavic tribes they encountered and later assimilating into the Slav population. In 620 the Croats and Serbs were invited into the Balkans by Eastern Roman Emperor Heraclius to drive away the Turkic Avars, and settled there among earlier Slavic migrants to become ancestors of the modern Serbs and Croats. Some Serbs remained on the Elbe, and their descendants are the modern Sorbs. Tenth-century Byzantine and Arab accounts describe a people called the Belochrobati (White Croats) living on the upper Vistula, an area later called Chrobatia.

The 'eastern' Alans and Huns

Some of the other Alani, who remained under the rule of the Huns, were among the federates at the Battle of the Halys River, in Anatolia, 430. These 'eastern' Alans are said to be ancestors of the modern Ossetians of the Caucasus.

Those of the eastern division, though dispersed about the steppes until late medieval times, were forced by fresh invading hordes into the Caucasus, where they remain as the Ossetians. Their most famous leader was Aspar, the magister militum of the Byzantine Empire during the 460s, whereas an Alan lady of renowned beauty, Maria of Alania, became Empress by marrying Nicephorus III Botaniates in the late 11th century. They formed a network of tribal alliancess between the ninth and twelfth centuries. In the thirteenth century, fresh invading Mongol hordes pushed the eastern Alans further south into the Caucasus, where they mixed with native Caucasian groups and successively formed three territorial entities each with different developments. Digor in the west came under Kabard and Islamic influence. Tuallag in the southernmost region became part of what is now Georgia, and Iron, the northernmost group, came under Russian rule after 1767, which strengthened Orthodox Christianity considerably. Most of these Ossetes today are Eastern Orthodox Christians.

The remaining Alans speak a unique language where they remain as the Ossetians, divided between Russia and Georgia. There is an Ossetian minority in Chechnya too. Jacob Reinegg, in Description of the Caucasus, may have been the first to make this connection. He noted that the Tatars called them Edeki-Alan. Their language, Ossetic, belongs to the North Iranian language group; it is the survivor of the northeastern branch of Iranian languages known as Scythian, which once included languages of the Russian steppes and Central Asia: Scythians, Sarmatians, Massagetae, Alans. Modern Ossetic has two distinct major dialects: Digor, spoken in the western part of North Ossetia; and Iron, spoken in the rest of Ossetia. The literary language, based on the Iron dialect was fixed by the national poet, Kosta Xetagurov (1859-1906).

In the 4th-5th centuries they were at least partially Christianized by Byzantine missionaries of the Arian church. Islam was introduced in the 17th century through the Kabardians (an East Circassian tribe). Energetic re-Christianization was begun with increasing Russian influence after the Ossetians acknowledged Russian overlordship in 1802.

(Greek Αλανοι, Αλαννοι; Chinese O-lan-na; since the 9th century they have been called As, Russ. Jasy, Georgian Ossi),

As surnames

As surnames were adopted in the 19th century, Alani was popular among Turkic peoples in Iraq, Turkey, and Iran; in Greece and southern Italy Alani is also known as a surname. No direct connection with the Alans can be assumed.

References

  • Bernard S. Bachrach, A History of the Alans in the West, from their first appearance in the sources of classical antiquity through the early middle ages, University of Minnesota Press, 1973 ISBN 0816606781

External links


http://www.answers.com/topic/alans

I really fail to see how there could be such a confusion between Turkish and Iranian tribes, all credible [and neutral] academic sources state that these tribes were Iranian (correct me if I am wrong).  If there was such a confusion surely there would be credible academic sources on either side of the argument?

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  Quote Hushyar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 00:35

Originally posted by Alp Arsalan

On the other hand Ossetians call Balkars who are a Turkic group of Caucasus, and most probably they are related with Bulgars, as Asi. Asi is an alternative name for Alans and after a period of time the name Alan has been replaced by As.

Even if the Alan names such as Addak, Kandak, Sandak is tried to be explained by an Ossetian suffix -eg, -ag, -dag these suffixes and names can be explained by Turkish etymology as well. Even the name Alan can be expalined by Turkish. Alan means plain (steppe) in Turkish. And the name As or Az is widely used by Turkish tribes such as Az-  eri, Kaz - ar, Uz - bek, Kaz -ak. There are Turkmen tribes called as Alan. They are a part of Salur tribe of Oghuzs.

The Osset-Alan relation is a vague but widely accepted, but not fully, by academic circles. The scientific methods to explain this relationship is not efficient and sufficient undermining other alternatives. 

 

The above text is directly or indirectly gotten from the works of Mirfattah Zakiev a Tatar phylologist who tries to prove that scythians were Turkic speaking people and ancestors of the modern Tatars.
He has written a book and put it online.This is the link of Alan article.
http://sophistikatedkids.com/turkic/24Alans/AlansEn.htm

 

 

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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 05:10
Originally posted by Hushyar

Originally posted by Alp Arsalan

On the other hand Ossetians call Balkars who are a Turkic group of Caucasus, and most probably they are related with Bulgars, as Asi. Asi is an alternative name for Alans and after a period of time the name Alan has been replaced by As.

Even if the Alan names such as Addak, Kandak, Sandak is tried to be explained by an Ossetian suffix -eg, -ag, -dag these suffixes and names can be explained by Turkish etymology as well. Even the name Alan can be expalined by Turkish. Alan means plain (steppe) in Turkish. And the name As or Az is widely used by Turkish tribes such as Az-  eri, Kaz - ar, Uz - bek, Kaz -ak. There are Turkmen tribes called as Alan. They are a part of Salur tribe of Oghuzs.

The Osset-Alan relation is a vague but widely accepted, but not fully, by academic circles. The scientific methods to explain this relationship is not efficient and sufficient undermining other alternatives. 

The above text is directly or indirectly gotten from the works of Mirfattah Zakiev a Tatar phylologist who tries to prove that scythians were Turkic speaking people and ancestors of the modern Tatars.
He has written a book and put it online.This is the link of Alan article.
http://sophistikatedkids.com/turkic/24Alans/AlansEn.htm

I know his article but I did not directly or indirectly get any part of it. There is not any similarities between what I have written with Zakiev's article apart from the Osset-Alan relation critics which is a widely accepted hypothesis. For example would you please find if Zakiev is writing about Alan tribe in Salur Oghuzs?

I think Scythians are also related with Turks too. But as I have written before there is a confusion between Scythians and Sakas. I have made a distinction between Sakas and Scythians of Herodotus.... This is important. Sauramats and Massagets were certainly related with Turks according to me.

Even if we assume Sakas were all once an Iranian people, it is sure that they are mixed and melted into Turkish populations. OR They were Turkics from the very beginning.

 

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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 23:35

Originally posted by Alparslan

Even if we assume Sakas were all once an Iranian people, it is sure that they are mixed and melted into Turkish populations. OR They were Turkics from the very beginning.
well in that case you could say all Iranians are Turks or maybe Arabs, and of course you could say Indians are Iranians and native Americans are Spanish French are Italians, Koreans are Chinese, Chinese are Mongolians We are talking history here, and of course you should NOT forget that all races share the same root.
 
I'm back here after probably a long time and I spend just about 5-10 min on the net til I sort up everthing else in my life. So, the One thing I'm trying to say to you -- my friend Alparslan -- is that you can't just little tatter stuff you want and use them as facts. even I can write something and at the end just say "feel free to use my book as an unbiased reference" and "don't forget, MINE is absolutely true". I hope you get my point.

"I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"
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  Quote Hushyar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 02:31

Alparsalan

1)please dont confuse word Iranian with Iranic. Iranian means those who live in Iran a geographical location (like Anatolian) and does not necessarily indicate any linguistic meaning. Iranic is a linguistic term which is used for languages that have or had common root like Persian and Pashtun and Kurdish..So I think you wanted to use word Iranic .


2)Actually the only message of this part was relation of Alans and Ossetians .And It is exactly has been gotten from that article only its details was sacrified.I dont say that you copy from that but It is clear  you used a source that he copied from Zakiev article.


3)There was  only two more points. Alan in Anatolian Turkish means land and There is a tribe in Salur Turkomens whose name is Alan.Sorry I think both of them are very loose reasoning.


4)About relation of Scythians Saka Iranic and Turkic languages, I think you have discussed it with Sharukin in the last forum in two years ago (I am new  here but I was active in old forum) many times and many sessions,(which I must confess that you could not convince me that there is any relation between turks and scythians) I personally  dont enter this discussion  because I dont have any knowledge about it. So you would excuse me If I dont continue it because simply swimming in unknown waters is not my job.

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  Quote Shahanshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 07:08
Originally posted by Hushyar

1)please dont confuse word Iranian with Iranic. Iranian means those who live in Iran a geographical location (like Anatolian) and does not necessarily indicate any linguistic meaning. Iranic is a linguistic term which is used for languages that have or had common root like Persian and Pashtun and Kurdish..So I think you wanted to use word Iranic .

I'm sorry Hushyar, but there is no word such as "Iranic". try to find it in the dictionary but you cant. iranic is not a word. Iranian is a word.

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 07:21

http://www.onelook.com/?other=web1913&w=Iranic

It is a relatively new word used in linguistics/anthropological studies to minimise confusion between the Iranian nationality and Iranian Linguistics and anthropology.

Definitions from The Online Plain Text English Dictionary:

Iranic

  • (a.) Iranian.

    OPTED is a public domain English word list dictionary, based on the public domain portion of "The Project Gutenberg Etext of Webster's Unabridged Dictionary" which is in turn based on the 1913 US Webster's Unabridged Dictionary. (See Project Gutenburg.)



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      Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2005 at 11:57
    Interesting thread,

    I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that there are two historical peoples called Alan's who may, or may not be related.

    Firstly the group that fought the Romans, Joined up with the Huns, roamed Westward to end up in France and Spain.
    Secondly the group that provided large numbers of soldiers for the Mongols.

     


    Edited by tadamson
    rgds.

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      Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2012 at 11:20
    Originally posted by tadamson

    Interesting thread,

    I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that there are two historical peoples called Alan's who may, or may not be related.

    Firstly the group that fought the Romans, Joined up with the Huns, roamed Westward to end up in France and Spain.
    Secondly the group that provided large numbers of soldiers for the Mongols.

     
    This depends on your point of view of peoples, as the Alans are one people and many at the same time. Mass adoption was a key to their success. As for fighting the Romans and joining the Huns, this covers a wide period of time and isn't as clear cut as it might seem. The Alans both fought the Romans at times, and also employed by the Romans to fight on their behalf. There was times that Alans were fighting for the Romans and fighting against them, and this included while being the Hunnish vanguard when devastating much of Europe. The Alans fighting for the Mongols were known to them as the Asud, though is was about a thousand years later. These Alans were probably from the medieval country known as Alania.


    What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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      Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2012 at 19:29
    Is there a connection between the names Kanguz, Cengiz and Genghis? How are the Turks related to the Steppe people?
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      Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2012 at 06:04
    Originally posted by Nick1986

    Is there a connection between the names Kanguz, Cengiz and Genghis? How are the Turks related to the Steppe people?
    Yes, Nick, Kangus and Cengiz are two versions of the name Genghis, which in turn is a version of Chinggis. The Steppe people were made up of many peoples including Turkic peoples, for which the Turks are. 
    What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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      Quote zoetropo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2012 at 08:15
    After repelling Attila, Aetius sent the Alans to Gallaecia in Spain and Armorica in Gaul.  In Armorica, they integrated with the local Gallo-Romans and the immigrant Bretons, who combined their Roman weaponry with the "Parthian" tactics of the Alans to great effect against Franks, Vikings and Saxons.  "Alan" became and remains a very popular name among Bretons.
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      Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2012 at 08:32
    Originally posted by zoetropo

    After repelling Attila, Aetius sent the Alans to Gallaecia in Spain and Armorica in Gaul.  In Armorica, they integrated with the local Gallo-Romans and the immigrant Bretons, who combined their Roman weaponry with the "Parthian" tactics of the Alans to great effect against Franks, Vikings and Saxons.  "Alan" became and remains a very popular name among Bretons.
    This is the reason why there's such a strong connection to the story of King Arthur.
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      Quote zoetropo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2012 at 08:40
    "The Secret History of the Mongols"assets that Genghis Khan's line among the Borjigin clan descends from a woman named "Alan-Ko" (or "Alan Gua the Fair") who had an affair with a "glittering" man.  Persian historian Rashid-al-Din recorded in his "Chronicles" that the glittering man was tall, long-bearded, red-haired, and had blue-green eyes; he also described the first meeting of Genghis and his infant grandson Kublai: Genghis was surprised to find that Kublai had not inherited his red hair and green eyes.

    That Kublai Khan's personal bodyguard were composed of Alans does suggest a special relationship.
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