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Worst mistake in the islamic history?

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Worst mistake in the islamic history?
    Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 02:02
And I ask you who attacked Najaf and Kerblaa and burned
the cities these cities in that time

Please Please Please, I would say again the same thing.
Muhammed Ibn Abdul Wahab died in 1792 before the attack of
Karbalaa and Najaf. Najaf and Karbalaa attack was in 1802.
Plus, they destroyed the Husayn tomb, not burned the cities.
Please do not exaggerate in history. Here is a link that proves
that (It is even anti-Wahabi)
http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/wahhabi_movement.htm
Let me help you in your arguement. Instead of pointing out
what the man's supporter did, point out to his teaching. There is
no correlation necessary between what a follower do and what
his teacher had taught.
For example, Bin Ladin says he follows right Islam and
committed massacres, does it mean Islam teachings are bad?
not necessary. Ibn Abdul Wahab followers also entered Taif in
September 1926 and massacred 15,000. Does it mean that
must be Ibn Abdul Wahab teachings? not necessary. You need
to point out on his teachings and not what his followers claim to
be his teachings.
About Ibn Taymyah THIS IS FROM SUNNI SOURCES
Please tell me you forgot the link? I don't see any source here.
No link, no book with pages numbers. Nothing. Please provide
a credible source so I can assess it and criticize it. Im not going
to comment of course on unproved statements.

Edited by ok ge
D.J. Kaufman
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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 06:08

http://www.sunna.info/antiwahabies/wahhabies/ 

this is the link from sunna and jamaa.

Azimuth you have tons against ayout allah from their enemy but this site and else from sunna against Ibn Taymyah and Ibn Abdel alwahab.

"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 07:18

 

well iam sure there are many Shiea sources and sites have things against Shiea imams and "aayatallah"

but as i said iam not into these stuff, if you are intersted you can search for these sites.

 

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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 07:43
Fine Azimuth but if you intrested I didn't attack sunnah we live together in my country in peace we mixed together from hundred years but we must be fair and leave the bleive and analyze the fact,Ibn Abd Alwahab was a bad person and his godfather too.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 09:11

it is nationalization{power and fame!}

 

I read some of the post and I was like "what the...!"

ooofff oofffff

 

you all are the worst mistake in Islam  it is nationalization!

 

Arab empires{led by Arabs, because it was rather Islamic} were great but it didn't survive because people started fighting for power and having their name as emir elmouamneen... no emeer moumneen for me other than Mohammed (saaws).!

When Turks took over the Arabs.. they killed heaps...Baghdad population went down like never before {how Islamic was that}

Plus, Osmanli never trusted Arabs, and never gave them leadership in their lands, correct me if I was wrong because Im 80% sure of that!

 At the same time, Arabs in ww1 and instead of helping each other against Europe, they attacked other Muslims, thats the Ottomans, and look where are we now, thanks to .. you know who...

 And you here are attacking each other... again the same mistake over and over mashalla!

We won't successes until we take Islam as nationality again.. no shiaa, no sunna , no Turkish, no Arab or whatever Muslims.

and remember God sais that humans arn't perfect.. we all made/make mistakes...



Edited by 1001nights
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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 09:35
1001nights
try to use normal font size and letters, it is sometimes unreadeble
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 10:45

Originally posted by DayI

1001nights
try to use normal font size and letters, it is sometimes unreadeble

 

kardes... this editing and writing system here, ay it is killing, vallah... lol

how is it now!!! readable!

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 11:15
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

http://www.sunna.info/antiwahabies/wahhabies/ 

this is the link from sunna and jamaa.

Ok, Im deeply disappointed that you used this link Ahmed. That was just an insult to your intellegence and our intellegence.

That link Mr. Ahmed that you call a sunni source is not a sunni source. It is clearly a shia source. If you have a spectrum like this:

Qaradawi (liberal)<-------various groups in between------>(conservative)Imam Abdul Wahab

Qaradawi and Ibn Abdul Wahab are completely in a lot of fundentmal desputes, and when you come to insult both side and the middle groups it is clearly that you don't belong to any sunni group, because you would have fell in either side or between the two extreme points in that spectrum. Besides it insults every Sunni Imam from Ibn Taymyah to Qaradawi, it talks about Imam Ja'fer Al sadek quotations. If you know that site was a misleading and you insisted on using the sources -especially that you hesitated first in quoting the soruce, most probably you just treated people here as stupid and with direspect of their intellegence and their time. 

That link uses two or three Sunni imams unrelated quotes, and then goes on and on by pages with Imam Ali only and then Imam Ja'far al Sadek for the rest of the whole arguement!! Since when sunnis use a source called the Qushayrian letter? Let us end this argument here as you have deeply disappointed me. Open another thread Ali as I and others are sick of this non-sense. Do that and I will be happy to overload you with shia sites that criticize shias Imams and leave you to dig their source and waste your time on them. Please!

A sample of what you will most often see in that sunniwebiste:

(148 ) : " . ǡ ǡ - " .  [ (/ 6) ].

http://www.sunna.info/taw7id1.html

From me to Imam Ja'far Al Sadek, did he really study Quran when he says that God cannot be on something because it means he is carried? Im the ignorant can easily tell him the verse in Quran where Allah himself says he is on "Arsh" a chair carreid by 8 angels. " ". by the way, Imam Jafar al sadek is a fundemntal source of Shia legislation and theology . Happy now Ahmed?

 

 >>



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 14:29

First of all: wahabis should be ashamed of themselves. It's the most intolerant sect that ever existed on this planet. Wahabism is the worst thing in (out of) Islam They advocate murder on shias, sufis and other muslims who tninks differently. And by the way, all the massmurderers, terrorists and talibans are wahabis. 

Second: And Khwarij are not shias. How could they be? They killed Ali, the first shiite Imam. You know that the word Shia comes from Shiat Ali (Ali's party)?

Third: I have seen alot of discussions between sunnis and shias who are experts. And of what I've seen the shias are more convincing. For example Muhammed actually proclaimed Ali as his successor in front of thousands. And by the the caliphes actually killed Muhammed GRANDCHILDREN. And you can read what Muhammed thought and said about them (he liked them) ...
And maybe most important: The caliphes actually changed Islam. For example, as leader, Uthman banned mutah (sigha). Something the prophet didn't. There are alot more ....

You can actually read these things in sunni hadiths even though they are doing everything to keep these things secret.

Now, don't think that I'm trying to convert you or something. I'm not even religious. I really don't care (don't even know why i'm writing this ). Just wanted to point out what I've seen in previous discussiones.

 

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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 14:53

I know you will do this but this is not a shia site and who are you to wrote (from me) to Imam Jaafar.

note: our fundemental source is Qura'n and the sunnah of the holy prophet.

I think you must search for another reason to beat this argument.

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2005 at 01:22

As I said, open a new thread. Thank you



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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2005 at 07:35

I can't end it here because you are full mistake,I don't know may be you  have more knowledges than Imam Jaafar Alsadiq the grandson of the prophet and his cousin Ali (PBUT).

HOLY PROPHET SAID (I AM THE CITY OF KNOWLEDGE AND ALI IT'S GATE).

Then i chalenge you to remove the accusses from bn Taymyah

scholars of his time accusing him of believing Allah to be a corporeal entity because of what he mentioned in his al-aqida al-Hamawiyya and al-Wasitiyya and other works, such as that Allah's 'hand', 'foot', 'shin' and 'face' are literal (haqiqi) attributes, and that He is upon the Throne in person. The error in this is suggesting such attributes are literal is an innovation and unjustifiable inferance from the Qur'anic and hadith texts that mention them, for the way of early Muslims was mere acceptance of such expressions on faith without saying how they are meant, and without additions, subtractions, or substituting meanings imagined to be synonyms, while acknowledging Allah's absolute transcedence beyond the characteristics of created things, in conformity with the Qur'anic verse "There is nothing whatsoever like unto him" [Qur'an 42:11].

Nevertheless, his idea to humanize Allah is well defined in his publications and the earlier scholar muslims never embody Allah but the describe Him exactly as mention in Holly Quran.And od never describe Himself like some describe Him?

"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2005 at 07:41

 

well he didnt ask you to end it

he told you to open a new thread about this.

and now iam telling you if you want open a new thread about it and you can discuss what you want there as long as you dont break any roles.

this thead is about worst mistakes in Islamic History,

and i guess that we agreed that the worst mistake was the assasination of Caliph Uthman radyallah anh.

 

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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2005 at 14:14
Ok,Azimuth we agreed but maybe  in different sights.I'll end it to keep unity no less no more but he was the beginer. 
"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2005 at 15:00

Good, finally we will get a spicific thread for that topic.

HOLY PROPHET SAID (I AM THE CITY OF KNOWLEDGE AND ALI IT'S GATE). Where is Jaafar in this hadith? or knoweledge is inherited too with birth? Mashallah. If you are going to set and just say "but he is the grandson, he must be knoweldgable than us" you just locked your brain. No woder I don't see that many of western covert to shia (if they do exsit).

He was the beginner? I don't recall myself calling others Wahabis and refusing to understand using the term is wrong .

What accusations? I don't see a list of them, I only see the criticize there without listing the reasons. Now, you refusing to understand the verse itself that Allah is on a chair carried by 8 Angles, suggest you may have a new version of Quran maybe .

Im still waiting the new thread....

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  Quote Pharoah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2005 at 18:59

hey cok gec,

    We disagreed a lot in the previous thread of Destruction of the historical remenants. Despite you are little agressive too. However, this time I have to agree with you for various points:

1- you are right, most famous convert to Islam are converting to Sunnim because it makes more logical sense.

2-Shia understanding that someone is better because of only his blood is very stupid. No wonder they have always Mullahs of ignroance. If we sunnis followed them, we would have been lost long time ago in our places and no other countries would become Muslim. Don't forget while the shia kingdom of safavid faught other Sunnis, Ummayed, Abbasid, Seljuks, Ottomans....etc faught other real enemy of the religion and they conquered and opened the door for Islam. Imagine of we Sunni followed that heritic concept of glorifying the ahl al bayet without thinking of their characters, then we will have people like the hashemite of Jordan raised up just for that reason, where they are the trash and dirt of this earth. Same thing to Khumayni and other fanatics who think that just because they can claim a descendancy to the prophet PBUH, they are better and more knowelegable. That thinking is only suprior to animal logic.

3- I don't understand both of you Ali and Cok Gec, why cannot one of you open a thread for that discussion instead of being locked arguing here.



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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2005 at 19:09

Ok Pharoah, I think you didn't read all the previous posts regarding this subject. Im the one who called for a seperate thread for this because im very fanatic to the idea of sticking to the topic. I dont' like outside deviations.

Now, why didn't I started a thread for that topic by myself? because i believe some arguments are constructive, others are basically a byzantine argument. If Ali does not want to uderstand that I donit and no one does like to be called Wahabi, It is his problem. If he got mad someone calling him Khawarej by mistake, then he should be sensitive knowns too. We are Muslim Hanbil and Ibn Wahab does not owe us anything new but a reformer. I just see that his brain is just stuck, i cannot help it even if I opened the new thread .

No wonder Ibn Taymyah, may Allah be pleased with his soul, said: "You hope for a jew to become a Muslim and not for a Shia to be convinced". I will never accept the idea that someone is better than me just because he can claims he was from the prophet side only, and Ali will not accept the idea that he is stuck on glorifying people without thinking of what they say, like Mr. Jaafar with such mistakes a first year kid in a madrasah can notice. I think a new thread is a waste of time, but i only requested that to save our forumers here from the pain.

 



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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 01:21
Originally posted by ok ge

I will never accept the idea that someone is better than me just because he can claims he was from the prophet side only

Don't forget that the lovely gentleman in your avatar is where he is because of his connection to the current ruling tribe of your land, so you do believe that people should be privileged based on the blood line and their connection to a certain tribe after all

 

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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 06:34

Last question do you mean Allah is carried by the throne?sittng on t like human?

Imam Jaafar is a great scholar by the acceptance of his era scholars and after them too except Ibn Taymyah ,and i know the Wahhabi sources it depends on Ibn Taymyah only and his followers like Ibn Qayim Aljawzia.

I think it waste of tim too because you have a foolish godfather.

It is not a blood thing it is knowledge thing if you don't know Imam Jaafar then stay in the darknees of your godfather.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 07:02

Selam every1

Ahmed.. let's say that Ali (raa) wasn't killed... what would have happned to Islam... I mean what would that change today... could you tell me..plz...

you're off topic or  I lost you guys... 

what you guys are talking about isn't really the biggest issue in Islamic world...

Again I would say it is nationalism under other than the Islamic flag, that is the problem and the biggest mistake... which was forced on us, and many muslims seem to have fallen for it, and some were forced to it.... imo



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