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What is the bravest act in history?

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    Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 13:02
Originally posted by iskenderani

Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by iskenderani

The ultimate heroic act is only one : The sacrifice , when there is nothing to hope for.

like suicide bombers?

Yes...i believe that the kamikaze were a brave lot of people , believing in their country and dying a heroic death...

They sacrificed willingly...

Isk..

 

More or less I'd say. About 40% were pretty much coaxed into the suicide missions by their commanders. They believed that they would be outcasts if they didn't accept. Even so flying your plane through bullets and flak and ultimately crashing into a ship is admirable.

Anyway I think thermopylae was one of the bravest.

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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 14:01

Originally posted by Belisarius

Originally posted by Komnenos

Before all we ex-Byzantine emperors get carried away, I would like to point out that Constantinople in 1453 is only example under many of a medieval city defending itself bravely against an overwhelming besieging force. There were thousands of others towns who fought with the same desperation and heroism against the inevitable.
Constantinople might have been the historically most significant,but that doesn't make it automatically the bravest.


Forgive me, basileus, but I must disagree. The defense of Constantinople is one of the more heroic acts, even when compared with other similar situations.

First of all, there is the patriotic acts of Constantine Paleologus. Mehmed gave him the chance to rule unthreatened in Mystras, but he refused, choosing to die defending his people.

As for the overwhelming besieging force, the defenders of Constantinople were outnumbered more than 14 to 1, and of that small number, very few were actually soldiers. Against them was the one of the most best,  state-of-the-art armies of the time. Among the more than 100,000 Ottomans were 20,000 Janissaries, arguably the most elite military orders of the time. In addition to this was the fleet the blockaded the city. At the time, the population of Constantinople was about 50,000, meaning that the invading force outnumbered even the city's entire population. Despite all this, they managed to hold out for a month.

What sets this apart from other similar situations was that the situation was truly hopeless and yet they fought on. In those other situations, the Alamo or Wake Island for example, there was always the chance that if they held out long enough, a relief force would come or there would be at least hope that a relief force would come. In the Siege of Constantinople, they knew no such help would come.

You know, I have always wished I could go back in time and incite the European and Janissary divisions to defect. Or that I could go forward in time and then go back and wipe out the Ottomans with futuristic weapons. Hehe....

being outnumbered is not bravery

And the emperors choice was very stupid,not brave

"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote Jorsalfar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 14:17
If you attack an army that is larger than yours you are brave (but in some cases maybe stupid).Also if you choose to defend against one.
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  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 14:21

Istanbul is best defended castle of that times, and 1/14 is not so much bad position for best defended castle. They fight brave, but bravest?

because you love greek culture, this does not mean this is most brave defance.

As I said, there were albanians who fight better than greeks. Because Istanbul have a big impact, It does not make defence otomatically bravest.

 

 

 

 



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  Quote Jorsalfar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 14:29

In case the post above was meant for me

i do not think the Constantinople defence was the most brave act in history.I think there is a lot of brave acts in history just as brave as that defence.

What i wanted to say was that i think that if you face an army that is larger than yours you are brave ( or maybe in some cases stupid ).

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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 15:37
Originally posted by Murtaza

because you love greek culture, this does not mean this is most brave defance.

Don't personalise your posts/attacks in a history discussion

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  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 15:48

You know, I have always wished I could go back in time and incite the European and Janissary divisions to defect. Or that I could go forward in time and then go back and wipe out the Ottomans with futuristic weapons. Hehe....

I dont personalise my post, this is only what he showed.And I dont think anyone insulted because I said them you love Greek culture. This is not an insult

 

 

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  Quote Jorsalfar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 15:58

I never said i loved Greek culture. (although i have got nothing against it )

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  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 16:00

Jorsalfar

what I said is not to you. I support what you said. They were brave. But bravest?

 

 

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  Quote Jorsalfar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 16:06

Ok i see.

 

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 23:56
Jesus of Nazareth, what have we started...

Originally posted by aknc

being outnumbered is not bravery

And the emperors choice was very stupid,not brave



Your opinion is noted, as much as I disagree with you. Being outnumbered is not bravery, it is when you face impossible odds without surrender that you are brave.

There is a very thin and blurry line between bravery and stupidity. I believe the famous Hollywood quote goes as follows: "He is either very brave, or very stupid".

What I said was that the defense of Constantinople was one of the bravest, not the bravest of all time.
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  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 02:10

By the way, You are thinking wrong.

Emperor had to chance for protecting his city. That war were not easy for Turks. Even one time, they almost retreated. But A Islamic leader and teacher of the Muhammet the conquerer, changed this decision.

He was brave but not for refusing surrender. For his charge to jenisaries.

 

 

 

 

 



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  Quote human Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 05:00

The battle of Thermopylae with big difference.

The oracle said : Greece will fall or a Spartan king will die.

Leonidas choose the second. After 600 yrs a Spartan king died in the battlefield. He gave time to the rest Greeks to prepaire. Leonidas said to the Greeks (200 Spartans and 300 Thespieis) : Fight with me and your names will be written in history. The world will be talking about you after 1000,2000 and 3000 years. With his action he gave courage to Athinians to defend against Persian navy in battle of Salamina and win. Dont forget that again the Persian navy was much bigger than the Greek. One year later we had the battle of Plataies. Again Persians were outnumbered but when they saw 3000 shields with the letter 'L' (Greek Lamda Lakedaimon Spartans) they started shaking. They were not able to kill 300 Spartans a year ago. How can now kill 3000 of them. Of course they lost again. The historian of the Persian king wrote that there was not army under the sky that could have won the Greeks that day.

Does anyone know how Leonidas choose his 300 men??? He choose the ones that their families were strong to survive after their death. Mothers and wifes that they wouldnt cry after the lost of their sons and husbands so they shall pass the message to the Greeks that Spartans are strong and the rest follow the example. He did not choose the 300 braviest.

One Spartan returned from Thermopylae after Leonidas told him to leave because he had a problem with his eyes and almost couldnt see anything. When he got back he lost all his rights as a Spartan and marked as a retrieter. In the battle of Plataies he killed the most Persians of all and again he was not honoured because they believed he retrieted in Thermopylae. 

They did not die to defend. THEY DIED TO GIVE THE EXAMPLE FOR THE NEXT 100.000.000.000.000 YEARS TO ALL NATIONS. Just the example....

You Got to Lose to Know How to Win...
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  Quote sovietsniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 09:35

lenningrad must be up there somewhere. It had a large impact on the war(pinned down army group nourth) and demmanded hugh will and bravry from many soviet troops.

But on a smaller scale wittmans rampage though a battalion of the britsh deasert rats after d-day was brave and helped stop the push to cann.

victory to russia
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 09:53
Originally posted by Murtaza

 This is not an insult

Insult?In which post did i say that you inmsulted that person?I merely said that you should not personalise your posts

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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 09:59
Originally posted by Belisarius

Jesus of Nazareth, what have we started...

Originally posted by aknc

being outnumbered is not bravery

And the emperors choice was very stupid,not brave



 it is when you face impossible odds without surrender that you are brave.

logically,i think you are wrong.BEcause if the Emperor thought he was fighting against impossible odds,he would have known that in the end,his city would be looted and it's citizens killed.NOw he wouldn't have accepted that.

HE thought that help was coming from europe and that he could withstand the ottoman army.He didn't even take the surrender offer before the all out assault.I think that is being stupid rather than brave

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 10:14

I think that sometimes some people rate other values more than life itself.

Some call this bravery, others stupidity.

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 11:42

I am not talking about life,i amtalking about the massackre and the enslavement of an entire population

the emperor took his chances on that,and i call that stupid

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  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 11:50

Aknc will you give your city without fight Even If you had 1% chance?

 

 

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 11:51

Sometimes spiritual freedom is far more important than material freedom.The emperor chose to fight for his spiritual freedom,troops chose to fight for their spiritual freedom,and that i call it bravery.

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