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What is the bravest act in history?

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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What is the bravest act in history?
    Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 13:34
Fall of Constantinople 1453.
It lies near the short line which separtes bravery from madness.

Generally ,people who have no real chance to win and are under siege (esp.so tightly surrounded) ,and resist can be considered really brave.
At a field battle there is always the chance to rout.


Edited by Brainstorm - 25-Oct-2006 at 13:36
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  Quote LilLou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 20:27
A good act of bravery is the defence of chalputepec castle by the mexicans during the mexican-american war, where some 6 teen cadets refused to surrender and fight till the americans overwhelmed them.
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  Quote human Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 08:24
There is also the siege and the sortie of Messolongi.

The Greek city was surrounded by Turks for months.
The food finished and they started eating rats and everything that was walking. They prefered to die than surrender their city.
When people started to die from starving they decided to make a heroic exodus and die.

They had only two choices. Freedom or death.

Theres a monumental inscription in the entrance of Messolongi that says :
Every free man is a citizen of Messolongi.
You Got to Lose to Know How to Win...
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  Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 09:32
siege of Constantinopole.to sieging that city is hard and heroic.
A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )
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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 10:07
Originally posted by Batu

siege of Constantinopole.to sieging that city is hard and heroic.


Appart from the 80.000 professional soldiers of the Ottoman army there where gathered till the end of the siege thousands of others-up to 200.000 total.
Their main aim was plundering after the city would be besieged.
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  Quote Turk Nomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 11:42
I agree taht defenders of Constantiniople was HeroicThumbs Up.This is normal.
 
But also attacking forces were heroic.
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  Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 15:14
Constantinople wasnt plundered.Ottomans never liked plundering.
A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )
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  Quote Turk Nomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 15:21
İt was Plundered,Look at Osmanlıyı Yeniden Keşfetmek-İlber Ortaylı.
 
İf a city defend it self more than 30 days,plundering is a law.Everey city defended more than 30days were plundered.
 
Constantiniople defend itself 54 days...Fatih didn't killed normal people,forgive them but he order his raiders and janissaries to plunder to city...


Edited by Turk Nomad - 26-Oct-2006 at 15:22
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  Quote Chodas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 18:13
Maybe it was mentioned before but I think the honour should go to the French Foreign Legion at Camerone where 65 of them fought 2000mexicans(800cavalry and 1200infantry) for 11hours(without food and water).
In the end only 5 where left before they performed a last charge.
Only 3 Legionaires survived(and about 1600 mexicans)
Thunder rolled. ... It rolled a six.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 06:19

The defence of Constantinople ranks as one of the bravest because of the desperation of the defenders. Their entire culture was facing extinction but they chose to go out on their feet defending their faith rather than meekly accepting vassalage under their enemies. 

Similarly the defenders of Malta also showed great bravery against the odds however they were successful and their defence helped pave the way for Lepanto.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Malta_(1565)

Oh yeah (i know it's part of a nasty little imperialist land grab but) Rorkes Drift surely deserves a mention.
 


Edited by Ossie - 27-Oct-2006 at 06:21
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 07:12
Bravery is very often a lack of alternatives & a very relative term. Let us not call all these events bravest, but one of the bravest.
PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 17:24
What exactly makes the defense of Constantinople the "bravest" act. There were countless Castle sieges throughout the medieval era, many of which had its far greater share of heroics than Constantinople did.
 
Those huge Cannons were inaffective, they didn't contribute in taking the city except maybe as phychological warfare.
 
Its the genius of the Turks who pulled their ships across land in the night, the Byzantines woke up with Turkish ships in their back-yard, that's what ended the war.
 
Other than that, there was no huge last battle when the Turks entered, the Byzantines surrendered, their places of worship wern't touched, they were allowed to return to their city, they got to live in a more secure environment. What's brave about staying behind an inpenetrable wall. If it had stayed in Byzantine hands they would have got looted and raped over and over again by European forces after booty and plunder like what happened a century before.
 
 
In my opinion are slave uprisings and enslaved people taking on their masters and gaining freedom is the most heroic action.
 
There are many examples of this, Turks several cases, the Ashina Clans amazing tale melting through an Iron mountain into a lush valley crushing those who enslaves them and getting back their ancestoral lands.
 
The Gaznevids, the brave Slave Alptekin rose up against his overlords crushed them and with his brave followers established his own state.
 
 
The Brazillian slave revolt were Slaves developed a fighting style "Capaero"
 
Toussain L'Ouverture's successful uprising in Haiti.
 
Spartacus
 
 
Also I find some females as being very brave as they have the hardest task and struggle in order to achieve this status especially in the patriarchal society of the last couple of millenia.
 
 
I admire NENE HATUN, whose family was Wiped out, she had nothing left, the Russians and Armenians had entered her city Erzerum, they were looting and burning it down. She took an Axe and a Rifle and charged at 40-50 Armenian-Russian troops and drove them into a tower and the locals shut them in there.
 
The KARA FATMA group of Woman, part of the Turkish Resistance in the South East.
 
I find bravery is more to do with individual acts, they don't have to be all millitiristic either.
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 27-Oct-2006 at 18:19
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  Quote Timotheus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 21:15
I am thoroughly sick of hearing about the Turks. If I hear another person panegyrize the Turks again I think I shall go mad. Surely it won't kill everybody to talk about something else for a change. Every time it is the Turks this and the Turks that. It's as if nothing good can be accomplished that the Turks didn't have a hand in, or that if somebody did something great, something greater has been done by the Turks. We know everybody loves the Turks but all of history does not revolve around them. Please.
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 22:15
Originally posted by Turk Nomad

Turkish İndependence Battle...

My secon choice is Manizkert,50000 Turks(mostly Turkmen) against nearly 200000 bryzantines...And Turan tactic was good used by Alparslan Khan

Pecheneg Turks in bryzantine army joined the Turk army.

 
 
 
Other choice to Gallipoli,both sides were heroic.



50,000 Seljuks (what happened to the rest of the askaris? they all had the flu?) against 200,000 Byzantines? Are you serious about that quote?


Edited by konstantinius - 27-Oct-2006 at 22:19
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  Quote Pacifist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 23:58
Originally posted by Murtaza

because you love greek culture, this does not mean this is most brave defance.
Just because you love Turkish culture, it doesnt make the conquest of Constantinople the bravest conquest in history.


Edited by Pacifist - 28-Oct-2006 at 00:20


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  Quote Timotheus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 00:55


50,000 Seljuks (what happened to the rest of the askaris? they all had the flu?) against 200,000 Byzantines? Are you serious about that quote?


He is under severe delusion, because the Seljuks outnumbered the Byzantines by 70,000 to 40,000.
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 07:34
I apologise, I have to recall my previous post. Osprey's "Byzantine Armies:886-1118" clearly mentions 100,000 Byzantines vs. 40,000 Seljuks under Alp-Arslan.
Romanus started out in the campaign with what is described as a "huge army" with its actual number being debated between 200-600,000. From this 40% were combatants, the rest being engineers, labourers, servants. From this 40% only a fraction were native Byzantine troops, the number and quality of which jad been drastically reduced by Romanus' anti-military predecessors. The thematic troops were ill-disciplined and ill-equipped having been neglected for 40-something years, the once-elite Anatolikon theme's troops "were notable only by the smallness of their numbers." The only crack regiments were the Tagmata and the Varangians around the Emperor, approximately 7,000-strong, and positioned in the center at Manzikert.


Edited by konstantinius - 28-Oct-2006 at 07:59
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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 08:31

The Byzantine army,is calculated to 40.000 combatants at the time the Emperor was reaching the town of Mantzikert.
Most of the rest were non-combatants,mechanic crew etc.

Moreover ,when he reached the battlfield,he was able to deploy only half of them-20.000 or some more.
General Tarchaneiotes delayed and didnt take part at the battle (probably it was an act of betrayal and not difficulties )

By these,some thousands deserted to the Seljucks-The Pechenegs.

On the other hand Arp Aslan left Aleppo with some 15.000 men,crossing Euphrates he had about 10.000 with him (the rest deserted) ,
but reaching the battlfield he managed t orecruit some additional forces.

Adding the Pechenegs t othese,the Seljuk army was only some thousands (no more than 5000) inferior to the Byzantine.

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/markham.htm
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  Quote Turk Nomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 10:23

Well ı red Bryzantine army was nearly 150000,but after runners and pechenegs this number is near 110-120000.

 
But on the other hand,seljuk number wasn't more than 40-50000.
 
There is a huge number difference.
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  Quote Timotheus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 20:01
De Re Militari, a fraternal project of ours, has a most excellent article on Manzikert. It does state that the Byzantines had an army twice the size of the Seljuks, so evidently Wikipedia is wrong. That's what you get for using wikipedia as a source.Thumbs Down
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