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QuoteReplyTopic: Did Jesus Christ really exist? Posted: 01-May-2006 at 03:12
Originally posted by QueenCleopatra
Originally posted by gcle2003
[QUOTE=QueenCleopatra]
Have either of you ever heard of the Gnostic Gospels ?
Why would anyone give the Gnostic gospels any credence at all as historical sources? (Other than as indications of the variety of unorthodox beliefs that flourished within 'Christianity' at the time.)
[/QUOTE/]
I could ask the same about the Bible. We can no more say the bible is accurate than the Gospels can we?
Well the gnostic Gospels came some time after the canonical Gospels.
Have either of you ever heard of the Gnostic Gospels ?
Why would anyone give the Gnostic gospels any credence at all as historical sources? (Other than as indications of the variety of unorthodox beliefs that flourished within 'Christianity' at the time.)
[/QUOTE/]
I could ask the same about the Bible. We can no more say the bible is accurate than the Gospels can we?
Well the gnostic Gospels came some time after the canonical Gospels.
Actually they are thought to have been wriiten around the same time. But even if they weren,t that doesn't make them any less accurate than the bible odes it ?
Her Royal Highness , lady of the Two Lands, High Priestess of Thebes, Beloved of Isis , Cleopatra , Oueen of the Nile
Have either of you ever heard of the Gnostic Gospels ?
Why would anyone give the Gnostic gospels any credence at all as historical sources? (Other than as indications of the variety of unorthodox beliefs that flourished within 'Christianity' at the time.)
I could ask the same about the Bible. We can no more say the bible is accurate than the Gospels can we?
If you are a Christian, what you need to know is that the Church canon developed as it did as an expression of orthodox (little "o") Christianity. If you are not a Christian, frankly you can believe in whatever non-canonical texts you want.
Allow me to offer an example. Some people used to believe that the Sun revolved around the Earth. Others believed that the Earth revolved around the Sun. The latter was true then, and is true now--unless you want to get truly nominalistic about it . That doesn't mean that the former opinion didn't/doesn't exist, only that it is wrong.
If you accept the premises and tenets of the Christian faith, you can cast the development of the Canon in the same light. If you do not, you won't be able to understand it in the same sense, and I will refuse to acknowledge your heliocentric solar system (a refusal that still won't render it false ).
-Akolouthos
Now that we've taken care of the why/why not of it, let's move on to the dating of the Gnostic works.
I believe that some scholars date a couple (as in 1 or 2) of the gnostic gospels to the New Testament era. Most of the gnostic texts, however, are of a much later origin. We do know that gnosticism was around in the New Testament era, and that it began to establish a bit of syncretistic hodge-podge of "Christianity" and denial of the value of the body very early on (I believe, if you wish, that I could find you at least one reference in the canonical books of the Bible). This was a heresy, however. If you want to believe it, go right ahead (see example above), but the universal church of the Ecumenical era declared the official canon as orthodox many centuries ago for a reason.
It's a lot easier to be an atheist than a believer.Atheists are simply people that do not believe,because it is always easier NOT to do something.
I do not think being an atheist is easier at all. There are thousands of evidences that bear witness to God's existence. Denying or falsifying one or two evidences and claiming that He does not exist is not logical.
If a person coming near a castle that has 98 open doors and 2 closed says that it is impossible to enter,he will definitely be wrong.
I think you didn't understand what i mean.I am a christian.But i hear people saying there is nothing good in being christian and that it is even stupid.I don't think it really metters weather Jesus Christ existed or not-it is the message of chrisindom that matters.The message of love and not hate,of peace and not war and if an atheist really tries to think about it he would come to the same conclusion.The problem of course is that it is harder to think than NOT to think , like with everythink else.
I think you didn't understand what i mean.I am a christian.But i hear people saying there is nothing good in being christian and that it is even stupid.I don't think it really metters weather Jesus Christ existed or not-it is the message of chrisindom that matters.The message of love and not hate,of peace and not war and if an atheist really tries to think about it he would come to the same conclusion.The problem of course is that it is harder to think than NOT to think, like with everythink else.
Well, to me Jesus existed.
But the values, the message he brought from God Almighty, although still exists partly, even most christians do not care about it. I do not see in the life style of people living in Europe and Americachristian values especially on moral , family and social spheres.Am I mistaken?
I think you didn't understand what i mean.I am a christian.But i hear people saying there is nothing good in being christian and that it is even stupid.I don't think it really metters weather Jesus Christ existed or not-it is the message of chrisindom that matters.The message of love and not hate,of peace and not war and if an atheist really tries to think about it he would come to the same conclusion.The problem of course is that it is harder to think than NOT to think , like with everythink else.
If your suvey is, that atheists don't think, than i must say your remarks attest , that obviously the reverse is true.
But, my friend, i don't think, most of the atheists were born as such, but became after a long process of thinking, balance all reasons and finaly proof many arguments.
The message of the christendom was murdering, killing, torturing, burning, cozenage and some other smooth things for centuries.
If some doesn't belive, i could be a proof of intensive thinking.
If someone doesn't think, he/she might be an atheist or a jew, a muslim or a christ, but first of all, he/she is a cretin.
The message of the christendom was murdering, killing, torturing, burning, cozenage and some other smooth things for centuries.
Even a muslim wouldn't say that.How exactly did you figure that out??Give me ONE proof that Jesus proclamed murdering,torturing....I've read and heard many things agains Chrisindom but NEVER that Jesus spread ideas of murdering and torturing.In a world of murdering and torturing he spread the ideas of right the oposite.Have you read the bible.I doubt it because in the whole New Testament is writen that "we shouldn't do to our comrade what we don't want he to do to us".Peace and Love-this is the message of Chrisindom,nomather how some people,in medieval especialy,interpretated it.You're statement that Jesus proclamed murdering and torturing is simply rediculous!!
The message of the christendom was murdering, killing, torturing, burning, cozenage and some other smooth things for centuries.
Even a muslim wouldn't say that.How exactly did you figure that out??Give me ONE proof that Jesus proclamed murdering,torturing....I've read and heard many things agains Chrisindom but NEVER that Jesus spread ideas of murdering and torturing.In a world of murdering and torturing he spread the ideas of right the oposite.Have you read the bible.I doubt it because inthe whole New Testament is writen that "we shouldn't do to our comrade what we don't want he to do to us".Peace and Love-this is the message of Chrisindom,nomather how some people,in medieval especialy,interpretated it.You're statement that Jesus proclamed murdering and torturing is simply rediculous!!
Evidences???
To prove the existence of a Creator we do not need to look for evidence our existence is a proof.The prefect system, the delicate balance in the universe,the design of our bodies etc. all and each bear witness to the existence of an ALL-KNOWING, COMPASSIONATE,... Creator.
* The distance between the earth and the Sun is miraculous. If it were a bit further, there would be ice age forever. If it were a bit closer, we would all turn to ash.No type of life would exist here.
* The human eye is a miracle itself.
* Just as a great work of art, say a painting, shows (is a witness) us the artist. This magnificent order shows its ARTIST.Nature is a work of art.It cannot be the Artist.
The message of the christendom was murdering, killing, torturing, burning, cozenage and some other smooth things for centuries.
Even a muslim wouldn't say that.How exactly did you figure that out??Give me ONE proof that Jesus proclamed murdering,torturing....I've read and heard many things agains Chrisindom but NEVER that Jesus spread ideas of murdering and torturing.In a world of murdering and torturing he spread the ideas of right the oposite.Have you read the bible.I doubt it because inthe whole New Testament is writen that "we shouldn't do to our comrade what we don't want he to do to us".Peace and Love-this is the message of Chrisindom,nomather how some people,in medieval especialy,interpretated it.You're statement that Jesus proclamed murdering and torturing is simply rediculous!!
Just as a book cannot be thought without its writer,and a small town without its governor,the universe is a big book of creation.It does have a Creator, the Owner. Can you claim that you own your body? We cannot even control every part of our body. Can you handle your heart? Or can you stop growing?
So one must believe that the Owner of this big palace (city, country ,,,whatever you may call it)surely lets us know about Himself and lets us know about why we are here.
Surely, the messengers were sent to us from among us.The being who should teach us should have known our weaknesses, feelings etc.
That's why I believe no Godly religion preaches murdering , killing or violating the rights of innocent people. ( no Godly religions)
He did, and does,exist, and there is a God who created use and the universe and everything.
Question, If a Creator-God made this universe, then where was he before that? Did he make our universe because he had to leave his old one? Lost his lease or something? And who created God, anyhoo?
Just wondering.
Given that God created everything, who created God?
Prophet Muhammad predicted that this question would one day be raised as he correctly predicted a great many future events of importance. On one occasion he said:
A day will certainly come when some people will sit with their legs crossed and ask: ‘Given that God created everything, who created God?’ (Bukhari, ‘I‘tisam,’ 3).
Those who put such questions are generally atheists or inclined to atheism and seek to lead others astray also. The purpose of their question is possibly to avoid the responsibilities owed by us to the Creator; belief and worship. At best, the question is derived from the observation of (what are taken to be) ‘cause and effect’ relationships. Every circumstance can be thought of as an ‘effect’ and attributed to an antecedent circumstance or ‘cause’ which, in turn, is attributed to some circumstance antecedent to it, and so on. In the first place, it is obvious to anyone who reasons objectively that the notion of ‘cause’ is only an hypothesis, it has no objective existence: all that objectively exists is a particular, often (but not always) repeated sequence of circumstances. Secondly, if this hypothesis is applied to existence as a whole, we cannot find a creator of it because each creator must have a creator before that creator, in a never-ending chain. (In fact, the futile notion of a never-ending chain of creators was one of the arguments used by Muslim theologians to explain the necessity of believing in God.)
The Creator must be Self-Subsistent and One, without like or equal.
It is self-evident that the Creator must be Self-Subsistent and One, without like or equal. If any created being can be said to ‘cause’ anything, that capacity to ‘cause’ was itself created within that being. Thus, no being in the universe can be said to be self-existent; rather, it owes its existence to the Creator who alone is Self-Existent as well as Self-Subsistent. It follows from the fact that the Creator alone truly creates that for each and every being He has determined all possible ‘causes’ and ‘effects’, all things whatever that come before or after it. Therefore, we speak of God as the Sustainer, who holds and gives life to His Creation from first to last. All ‘causes’ have their beginning in Him, and all ‘effects’ find their ending in Him. In truth, created things are no more than so many ciphers or zeros which, no matter how many we put in a series, add up to nothing, unless a positive ‘one’ is placed before the series to give it value. In just this way, the creation could have no real existence, nor any value, except by God.
What we call ‘causes’ have no direct or independent influence in existence, no direct or independent ‘effects’. It may be that we need to speak of ‘causes and effects’ in order to understand how, in a short space and over a little period of time, some part of the Creation is made (by the Mercy of God) intelligible to us and available to us for our use. But even this but confirms our dependence upon God and our answerability before Him. It is not God who needs ‘causes and effects’ to create; rather it is we who need ‘causes and effects’ to understand what He has created. He alone is the First and the Last, the Eternal, the Initiator and the Determiner—and all our busy little efforts after cause and effect are but veils between ourselves and His Majesty.
Let us then affirm once more: He, God, is One; God, the Self-Subsistent, Eternally-Besought-of-All; He neither begets nor was begotten; and nothing whatever is like unto Him.
It is amazing that people still question the historical figure of Jesus. One might as well question the historical figure of Julius Caesar because there are in fact more source texts from the general era that refer to Jesus than to Caesar.
Now, of course, Caesar never claimed to be God (or if he did, nobody takes him seriously anymore). And it ultimately cannot be absolutely proven by human logic that He was God. That is something that must be either believed to be true or believed to be not true. However, it is thoroughly ridiculous to question the historicity of Jesus Christ.
Opium is the religion of the masses.
From each according to his need, to each according to his ability.
It is amazing that people still question the historical figure of Jesus. One might as well question the historical figure of Julius Caesar because there are in fact more source texts from the general era that refer to Jesus than to Caesar.
Tosh. We've been here before, only then it was Tiberius.
There are far, far, far more textual and other references to Julius Caesar during his lifetime that there are to Jesus. In fact there are more to any Caesar you care to pick.
What is really amazing is that anyone still thinks he can get away with this sort of wildly inaccurate statement.
I believe Jesus was a historical figure on the balance of all the evidence, but it is certainly not 'thoroughly ridiculous' to question his historicity: certainly not as totally ridiculous as it is to assert that there are more contemporary references to him than to Julius Caesar.
There are I suspect more textual references to Caesar in De Bello Gallico alone than there are to Jesus in the Gospels. And De Bello Gallico was certainly written in his lifetime, just like all the other 'debello's - Civili, Hispaniensis, Africo, Alexandrino.
And the inscriptions ... and the statuary ... and the consular rolls....
Now, of course, Caesar never claimed to be God (or if he did, nobody takes him seriously anymore). And it ultimately cannot be absolutely proven by human logic that He was God. That is something that must be either believed to be true or believed to be not true. However, it is thoroughly ridiculous to question the historicity of Jesus Christ.
It is amazing that people still question the historical figure of Jesus. One might as well question the historical figure of Julius Caesar because there are in fact more source texts from the general era that refer to Jesus than to Caesar.
Tosh. We've been here before, only then it was Tiberius.
There are far, far, far more textual and other references to Julius Caesar during his lifetime that there are to Jesus. In fact there are more to any Caesar you care to pick.
What is really amazing is that anyone still thinks he can get away with this sort of wildly inaccurate statement.
I believe Jesus was a historical figure on the balance of all the evidence, but it is certainly not 'thoroughly ridiculous' to question his historicity: certainly not as totally ridiculous as it is to assert that there are more contemporary references to him than to Julius Caesar.
There are I suspect more textual references to Caesar in De Bello Gallico alone than there are to Jesus in the Gospels. And De Bello Gallico was certainly written in his lifetime, just like all the other 'debello's - Civili, Hispaniensis, Africo, Alexandrino.
And the inscriptions ... and the statuary ... and the consular rolls....
Now, of course, Caesar never claimed to be God (or if he did, nobody takes him seriously anymore). And it ultimately cannot be absolutely proven by human logic that He was God. That is something that must be either believed to be true or believed to be not true. However, it is thoroughly ridiculous to question the historicity of Jesus Christ.
Straw Man. You've mentioned number of references within texts, when what was being said was number of texts. You have also failed to produce any evidence regarding number of texts, whereas evidence has been produced for the other side regarding the Tiberius argument. The first thing you are going to go for is coins, however, we are addressing strictly textual references so I'll head that off.
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