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Would Alexander have defeated Porus if...

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  Quote Hormoz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Would Alexander have defeated Porus if...
    Posted: 26-Jun-2005 at 23:01

This is inspired by the previous subject regarding Alexander against a united India. 

Would a victory for Porus have been more likely if the battle did not occur in monsoon season?

I would like to see what others make of the question before I add my opinions, if that is all right.



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  Quote Rome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 03:17
   I still think that Porus would have lost because Alexander had better men and a total different style of attack then the Indians.
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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 07:53
Whatever weather condition that was faced by the Indians was also faced by the Macedonians. An added advantage was the fact that the Indians were also used to the weather of their homeland. I believe that in any 'what if?' situation, save for the divine interference of God himself, Alexander would still have won.
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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 12:53
more info in this thread:
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 22:59
Alexander was a military genius, if 5 to 1 being outnumbered at Guagamela isn't going to stop him then a monsoon isn't. Unless the clouds were selective and only rained on Alexander's army .......
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  Quote Hormoz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2005 at 09:44

I too think Alexander would have won on the grounds that he was an extraordinary military genius capable to adapting to even the most radical situations. 

However, I think Porus would have stood a better chance.  True, the weather was the same for both armies, and the Indians would have been more used to the monsoon, but the Indians may have expected not to fight until after the monsoon, and in that case perhaps Porus could have summoned and recieved allies, and his own men would be more ready to fight.  Also, the effectiveness of the longbows, I think, would have been greatly hampered by the weather. 

Alexander's surprise crossing was aided by the meteorological conditions as well.

 

What do you think?

 

I will try to dig up an article I once found relating to this.  I know my post was very brief.



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  Quote Hormoz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2005 at 09:49

Originally posted by Rome

   I still think that Porus would have lost because Alexander had better men and a total different style of attack then the Indians.

 

And the Indians a different style than those Alexander was used to.  I think the men on both sides were very brave and able but I agree Alexander's were better, because of discipline, although Indians were probably braver.

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2005 at 03:17

Alexander, had to face the problem of crossing a swollen, due to the monsoons, great river like Hydaspes. At the same timehe had to do so facing a strong army at the other side of the river. In order to do so, he consciously faked crossing of the river, while at the same time kept his troops ready with continuous maneuver exercises etc. After some time, the Indians became tired by being alert all the time, while Alexander only faked crossings. At that point Alexander split his army, left Crateros at the camp and went 12 miles to the north. He crossed the river there (under pouring rain) and started moving South, to meet Porous' army, after destroying a 3,000 strong force what came to meet him and killing Porous' son who was leading it.

The brilliance of the plan was that Porous was now pinned. If he moved to meet Alexander, Crateros had orders to cross the river and attack his rear, if he chose to continue facing the river, Alexander would attack him from the rear and of course retreating and abandoning his country undefended was not an option.

The rest is history...



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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2005 at 11:42
Originally posted by Hormoz



And the Indians a different style than those Alexander was used to.  I think the men on both sides were very brave and able but I agree Alexander's were better, because of discipline, although Indians were probably braver.


The myth that the battle against Porus was the first time Alexander encoutnered elephants is untrue. The Persians used elephants at Gaugamela. By the time of the the battle against Porus, Alexander had already discovered how to deal with elephants.

Another thing. How can you know if the Indians were braver or not?
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2005 at 12:09
Elephants in the battle of Gaugamela were very few and were actually not even used.
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  Quote Hormoz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 00:13

Originally posted by Belisarius

Originally posted by Hormoz



And the Indians a different style than those Alexander was used to.  I think the men on both sides were very brave and able but I agree Alexander's were better, because of discipline, although Indians were probably braver.


The myth that the battle against Porus was the first time Alexander encoutnered elephants is untrue. The Persians used elephants at Gaugamela. By the time of the the battle against Porus, Alexander had already discovered how to deal with elephants.

Another thing. How can you know if the Indians were braver or not?

 

Yiannis is right; there were only fifteen elephants at Gaugamela.  Alexander did, however, study tactics involving elephants.

I say the Indians were probably braver because of their culture; these were people for whom honor was of supreme importance and they did not know retreat.  Whereas Alexander's troops, terrified of the elephants, refused to go further into India, the Indian kings probably would not have encountered a similar problem with their men. 

 

Obviously the Theban Sacred Band and the Spartans behaved the same way, but this was prior to Alexander and while Alexander's men were very brave, I don't think they were quite as audacious or intrepid as the Indians.



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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 10:53
Braver? I don't think any Indian has ever claimed that they are braver than Macedonians. When people go into war they are brave. Bravery  doesn't win battles, technology, man + beast power and tactics do.

The only way i can see the monsoon affecting Alexander is throuugh logistics and desease (eg malaria). I'm sure they would hav found a way round it.

Not that it matters, Porus' kingdom was genarally weaker than the other indian kingdoms.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 00:44

Alexander defeated Porus, as the legend (not the historical facts) tell us in a battle that was fought on the banks of river Jhelum (Hydpasis). It is said that Alexander's army mutinied and forced Alexander to give up his military plans of further incursions in the Indian mainland. The most probable cause of the mutiny was the fight with Porus that gave soldiers in Alexander's army a taste of what was waiting for them in the Indian mainland. Porus was only a regional satrap with a limited army, but he made things difficult of Alexander. Had Alexander marched forward, then it would have been a one way march, as the more powerful army of Nandas, the rulers of Magdha would have decimated Alexander and his army with contemptuous ease.

Another myth of Greek military superiority, which prevails almost in all history books is rather overblown. After the death of Alexander, the Greek power was wiped out by the combined uprising of small principalities and the final death blow came when Seleucus Nikator, who was defeated by the Indian emperor Chandragupta Maurya.



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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 01:05

 

well as i see it even if Alexander lived and defeated all empires and nations around him from china to western Europe. then one day he'll die and his huge empire will be divided and his son if lived wont be able to keep control on all that area.

so the empire will be divided and after 200 to 300 years all the former empires before alexander will come back with different names and Alexanders empire wont effect them as expected.

also as i said before he was a good general but not so good ruler. this type of rulers are only for conquering and not for keeping what they conquered which is a harder than the conquering itself.

 

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  Quote ITAPEVI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 14:13
If Darius had publicly performed proskynesis to Alexander and blessed his daughter's marriage to him, then he would not have posed a significant military threat to Alexander if he had been appointed Satrap of Persis (with a Macedonian garrison of course). But this arrangement would have been invaluable to Alexander as a means of legitimising his rule with his new subjects. Mazaeus would have been a more credible rebel leader than Darius in the eyes of Persians, yet he was reappointed Satrap of Babylonia.
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  Quote WarThemedRevolution Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2011 at 22:40

You are right, but you might find it interesting to know that many historians believe the war-elephants at Gaugamela were too travel weary and not deployed during the battle. This seems to jive with the fact that Alexander commandeered all fifteen of the elephants.

 

As to the central question, Alexander defeated Parvataka (King Porus) because he did know how to deal with the war elephants. He assumed a loose formation and harassed the elephants with javelins causing them to panic and trample the more tightly packed enemy infantry while his cavalry circled around and flanked and his phalanx pushed Porus' troops into the river.

 

I think that, monsoon season or no, Alexander's tactical genius and experience would have prevailed. He beat Porus because he was the better general. Come on, this is a guy who permanently altered the world map to take Tyre. Seriously--it was an island, now it's a peninsula.

 

Although, it is interesting to note that at the battle of Granicus Alexander was stunned by a blow to the head. While he was down a Persian Satrap (forget which one,) raised his arm up to strike the killing blow when Cleitus the Black a personal friend of Alexander leapt forward and cut the Persian’s arm off. Had he been a moment slower, Alexander would’ve died in 334 B.C—two years before Hdaspes, before Gaugamela, and before spreading Greek influence across the Persian empire.


I wonder how the world might have developed were that the case...

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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2011 at 09:47
Let's not forget the importance of horse archers acquired from Persia. The indians also happened to have a very powerful type of bow which was so hard to string that the archers couldn't hold it up whilst shooting. This also meant that the arrows were very powerful but left them somewhat more vulnerable to enemy attacks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6O51u9nu7U

Here you can watch the whole battle in detail, semi-reconstructed.


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  Quote archaiokapilos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2011 at 05:46
Originally posted by Hormoz

Originally posted by Belisarius

Originally posted by Hormoz



And the Indians a different style than those Alexander was used to.  I think the men on both sides were very brave and able but I agree Alexander's were better, because of discipline, although Indians were probably braver.


The myth that the battle against Porus was the first time Alexander encoutnered elephants is untrue. The Persians used elephants at Gaugamela. By the time of the the battle against Porus, Alexander had already discovered how to deal with elephants.

Another thing. How can you know if the Indians were braver or not?

 

Yiannis is right; there were only fifteen elephants at Gaugamela.  Alexander did, however, study tactics involving elephants.

I say the Indians were probably braver because of their culture; these were people for whom honor was of supreme importance and they did not know retreat.  Whereas Alexander's troops, terrified of the elephants, refused to go further into India, the Indian kings probably would not have encountered a similar problem with their men. 

 

Obviously the Theban Sacred Band and the Spartans behaved the same way, but this was prior to Alexander and while Alexander's men were very brave, I don't think they were quite as audacious or intrepid as the Indians.


Honor was of supreme importance for ancient Greeks  too, man...Have you read the epics?
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2011 at 18:08
Remember how Hector though knew he was a dead man for fighting Achilles (the champion of the immortals) had to do so to defend his honour and that of his brother.
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  Quote Apollo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2011 at 18:10
Wow, necro-posting! You guys do realize the thread is 5 years inactive?
Not to be offensive, but dead threads should stay buried.
 
 
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