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Population through History

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Population through History
    Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 22:59
I am doing research and I would like to know if anyone can give me some actual numbers of the population of Persia through history, particularly in the time periods of the Achaemenids, the Pathians/Sassanids, and the Safavids? Any help would be much appreciated and will be rewarded with mention in my prayers. I have been searching for days no one and no source can give me any answers.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 06:09

I don't have a source for this but the population of Sassanid Iran, I have read, was between 12-15 million people.  There will be exact figures available, anthropologists have a way to figure population numbers out.  For the Safavid population you should take into consideration the Turko-Mongolic genocides of Ghengis and Timurlane.

Here is an interesting point I read a couple of years ago, the Iranian population only recovered in numbers from teh Mongol holocaust in the 1950s. In Nishapur over one and a half million were slaughtered, similar number in Herat, Sepahan (Esfahan) was soemthing like 800,000.

 

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 21:01
12 - 15 million? Would this happen to have been centered around a certain area, or spread out through the empire?
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  Quote Hushyar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 09:11

Belisarius:

You asked a question that nobody could answer you correctly, We know In sassanaid Time there was an elaborate system of statistics and after Islam in times of omayyad and and first years of abbasids those datas from sassanaid times used, unfortunately we have no data of that Time but by knowing the tax quatities that was recorded in Islamic Times some reaserchers estimate that population in Iran in 6th century was approximately over 12 million (same as Purya said).After Islam the population number decreased but in time of abbasid it again increased,(from the tax records of that time).
After Caliphates lost their power in Iran and Iran was distributed between many smaller kingdom until the 20th century no real statistics have been made in Iran, so every number will be on approximation and so there will be so many errors.
We know from smanaid Time until Mongol Invasion Iran population slowly increased or atleast it remained the same, after Mongol invasion Population of Iran heavily decreased and some parts of country completely evacuated. Althugh in Time of Ilkhanids (specially ghazan khan)  again some desrted parts filled with slow communities but after Teymur invasion we have a ery sharp decrease (and also there is a record of a big plauge in 14th century),I have no data about 15th century but after safavids speially in 1600s Iran population increased and it reached to number of 10 million(again approximation) (sharden claimed 40 million but it is exaggreation) after Afghan invasion and until Pahlavi dynasty iran population decreased slowly and  in middle of 19th century we have apprximation between
6 to 8 or 9 million.(Nassereddin Shah  a qajar king claimed Iran more than 23 korrur which is equal to 11 million people but again many considered this as a bluff).

12 - 15 million? Would this happen to have been centered around a certain area, or spread out through the empire?


Surely it was distributed around central Iranian Desert.

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 09:45
Of course I know that no one has precise numbers, I was just asking for some estimates. I thank you for your answers.

Why is it that we have such a lack of information about ancient Persia? For nations like Greece and Egypt, I can easily find information on population. However, I am hard pressed to find any detailed information on the Sassanids at all.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 13:13
I think the major population centres must have been the cities considering the numbers that were wiped out by the mongols and turks in urban areas. 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 15:02

Originally posted by Zagros Purya

I think the major population centres must have been the cities considering the numbers that were wiped out by the mongols and turks in urban areas. 

Com'on, I have heard lots of nonrelated poeple blaming our history with nonsense, but an Iranian would be dissappointing. Turks had no reason to massacre Iranians in history, you also know this, so please...

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 15:07

I am referring to Timurlane, he was a Turk wasn't he? I don't mean it in a racial sense anyway.

Don't tell me you deny his massacres of whole cities do you? That would be disappointing considering he writes it in his own memoirs.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 16:05

Yes, he massacred lots of people, but it wasnt an ethnic massackre. He also massacred most of the Turkmen population in the northeastern provinces of Iran and Turkmenistan. That is why they continued their massive immigrations to Anatolia until the Battle of Ankara btw Ottomans and Timurids. They were kind of pushed by Timurids. But during the battle btw Ottomans and Timurids, Anatolian Turkmen Begs have fought with Timur against Bayazit because in fact, it was a battle of Turkic dominiance. Timur just wanted to break the power of Ottomans, prove every Turk that he was the only leader of Turkic world, and Anatolian Turkmens supported him against Ottoman pressure.

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 17:15

OK, what is the relevance of that to the population levels of Iran over the centuries?

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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 17:41

Originally posted by Belisarius

I am doing research and I would like to know if anyone can give me some actual numbers of the population of Persia through history, particularly in the time periods of the Achaemenids, the Pathians/Sassanids, and the Safavids? Any help would be much appreciated and will be rewarded with mention in my prayers. I have been searching for days no one and no source can give me any answers.

 

I found this quote from a website about Darius's empire:

"In 522 b.c., when Cambyses' son Darius ascended the throne as the king of kings of Persia, his empire was the greatest in the world. It stretched from the Aegean to Afghanistan, from the Black Sea to the Blue Nile. It was estimated to have contained 50 million people, an unimaginable population for that time. So vast an empire was difficult to govern with ancient communications and organization, and Darius's greatest achievement was a thorough internal reform of the empire. He built roads-2,500 kilometers' worth of them. He created a system of provinces ruled by satraps (governors) capable of acting on his behalf. He instituted a standardized system of weights and measures and introduced uniform gold and silver coinage. His commercial reforms made Persia a trading juggernaut that dominated the markets of the ancient Near Eastern world. And Darius built a magnificent new imperial capital at Persepolis with an eclectic architectural style that attempted to blend elements of the motifs of all of the many subject peoples of the empire. "

- Kennith Pollack, The Persian Puzzle

 

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 17:43
Do you have the web address? Thanks.
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 17:55
The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
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  Quote Hushyar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2005 at 02:10

Originally posted by Belisarius

]
Of course I know that no one has precise numbers, I was just asking for some estimates. I thank you for your answers.

Why is it that we have such a lack of information about ancient Persia? For nations like Greece and Egypt, I can easily find information on population. However, I am hard pressed to find any detailed information on the Sassanids at all.


Actually  we don't have sufficient knowledge about most of the ancient civilizations for example look india, most of its history is still unknown , In Iran condition is much better.you mentioned Egypt, Actually our knowledge about egypt is too low If we look that they had a 25 century civilization before persians conquered their country.And Greek civilizations, most of our knowledge has been gathered from other palces rather than greek mainland.
In Iran for example our knowledge about Selucids and Parthains are too low and many blames Sassanaids for that.after Islam because zoroasterian books and sassanaid texs were considered infedal's works and because their script was different with Arabic script most of them vanished and only those that survived by Indain Parsis (those zoroasterians that immigrated to India after Arab invasion) are our main sources about ancient Iran.Ancient History is a very difficult field and needs so many patience and knowledge.
 

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  Quote Hushyar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2005 at 02:12


Com'on, I have heard lots of nonrelated poeple blaming our history with nonsense, but an Iranian would be dissappointing. Turks had no reason to massacre Iranians in history, you also know this, so please...

Oguzoglu:
don't mix your feelings with science.
Nobody denies role of turks in forming the present Iran and their contribution in the History of Iran, but It needed time for them to blend in Iranian civilization,(actually a few centuries and many genrations).
Back to your claim:
do you know about Iraqi oghuzes that came in khorasan about 1010 with permission of sultan  Mahmud and then rebelled and Mahmud drove them from Khorasan and they scattered through Iran and Armenia and even Mosul province and killed so many people until all of them being killed or settled.Even when Saljuqs came Iran Tugrul who knew his army is uncontrollable sent them to Azarbaijan and northern Iraq because he didn't want they sack muslims.
Do you know any knowledge about fetne -ye-ghaz, those oghuz tribes that defeated sultan Sanjar and invaded khorasn what did to local populations?They were considered as god punishment and the turmoil they created considered the biggest blow to Iran between Arab Invasion and mongol invasion and after how many years they suppressed.
I don't speak about mongols and also Jalayerids  because their commanders were considered mongols,althought jalayerids were heavily Turkified , I will answer about Teymur next.
Do you think Othman army was a good army,I told some of the stories of othmans in azarbaijan before in another discussion , but i remind you that khoy city has been razed to gorund and all of peoples were killed or sold to slavery (shiis were considered as infedals and othmans could enslave them). Even Iranian turks did masscares,Agha mohammad khan Qajar founder of Qajar Dynasty is considered one of the crulest persons that ruled this country, still the works he had done in Keman and bam is remmembered

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  Quote Hushyar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2005 at 02:15

Now Teimur:

I hope all defenders of Timur came here because I want to burry this so called champion as a sadistic killer in here for ever.
Yes, he massacred lots of people, but it wasnt an ethnic massackre
Are you sure it was not an ethnic massacare,What do you know about him,He killed every body in Esfarayen,Sabzevar,and Neyshabur and theses cities that emerged partially from mongol invasion completely became ruined and in recent years wih the help of Mashhad they became a small town.in Sabzevar he put 2000 prisoners in the walls and buried them.He such devastaed sistan which is still a poor province. He sacked Isfahan (which Sulghurs escaped from mongols) so nicely that this city remained as a small town until 200 years later shah abbas rebuilt it.Timur so saked Baghdad that only in 20th century it emerged as a big city and it was becasuse of Oil.Every body knows his love to pyramid of sculls and eyes.without no doubt he was one of the most terrible men in the history of Asia.(although he was a pupil infront of Temuchin)


He also massacred most of the Turkmen population in the northeastern provinces of Iran and Turkmenistan


No I'm sorry ,Timur was bad but turkomans were killed by mongols or fled to Azarbaijan with Jalaleddin.Sarbedaran emptied Khorasan from Turkic and mongol tribes but none of them were turkomean.


That is why they continued their massive immigrations to Anatolia until the Battle of Ankara btw Ottomans and Timurids. They were kind of pushed by Timurids


No khorasani turks immigrated anatolia not in time of timur not mongols ,When Timur invaded Azarbaijan and the defeated Jalayerids and then went in War with QaraQoyunlu confedration and specially Qara Yusef many turkomen Tribes left Azarbaijan and went to Eastern Anatolia.

But during the battle btw Ottomans and Timurids, Anatolian Turkmen Begs have fought with Timur against Bayazit because in fact, it was a battle of Turkic dominiance.


No It was battle between two kings,Don't let that nationalist version of history shadow your mind


Timur just wanted to break the power of Ottomans, prove every Turk that he was the only leader of Turkic world, and Anatolian Turkmens supported him against Ottoman pressure


Again Islamic world, Timur made all clergy men (olama) to say that Bayazid is Kafir(infedal) because he fight with muslims by christian soldiers.And although He won the war but after war by humilating Bayazid and his wife all of the Muslim kings and clergies cursed him.

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2005 at 16:04
how come you defend Transoxania when it was not part of Iran (in the Mongol thread) but say Timr did destroy everyhting in his way while most of the famous buildings in transoxania today are from his reign/dynasty? you have some quite nationalistic double standard there...
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2005 at 16:16

Samarqand was his capital wasn't it? why would he destroy things and people in his own domain, makes no sense.

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  Quote HulaguHan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2005 at 19:25

Turkik Khwarizm Shahdom tried to protect all Iranic lands including Transoxianna against the Turko-Mongol invasions (Turks and Mongols are the same, Mongols are just the descendants of the Eastern Turks (Eastern Tu-c'hueh), though now both their culture and language is effected by Chinese like ours is affected by Greek and Iranian). And there were Turkomans in the Cengiz' army too. We even tried to protect Iran from ourselves.

We did not want to erase Iranian culture, on the contrary we adored it, embraced it especially Oguzoglu Turks .

But yes Timurlenk, Cengiz, Hulagu killed Iranians but they killed also Turks. These guys were our crazy presents to mankind, sorry .

@Hushyar, there were always immigrations to Anatolia. One wave occured with Timurlenk, like Oguzoglu mentioned.

Oguzoglu is right, at least Oguz Turks deserve appreciation I think .



Edited by HulaguHan
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  Quote Hushyar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 02:32

Originally posted by Temujin


how come you defend Transoxania when it was not part of Iran (in the Mongol thread) but say Timr did destroy everyhting in his way while most of the famous buildings in transoxania today are from his reign/dynasty? you have some quite nationalistic double standard there...


Nationalistic feelings in my words??!!, no sir , I feel some romantic feelings (19th century style) about admiration of big men in your words which does not base on facts.

1)Transxosania was part of Iran at least culturally from 9th century until mongol invasion even under Qarakhanid.If you read Islamic sources you'll find what I mean.

2)Not most but we can say that half of the famous building In transxosania belongs to Teymurids(not Timur),ofcourse all of them can not be compared to transxosania before mongol invasion,but there is no doubt that Timur atleast somehow restored civilization in the desert that mongol created but how did he do this and by what cost?by plundering Khorasan, India,Mazandaran , sistan, Isfahan, Azarbaijan, Georgia, Baghdad, Syria,...I mean he razed half of the world to beautify his capitals in Samaqand and Bokhara.

3)What do you know about Timur or what is your sources about him?He was a great commander, nobody doubt it, but Nazies were great commanders and still missle technology mostly is invention of Nazies, but i see no reason to admire nazies for that.

4)Most of his massacars has been written by his own or his descendent historians and in the end they wrote "It was god will to punish those who sank in sin and disobeyed the king of world",have you read zafarnameh it is completly biased and completly defends Timur, (he was official historian of Timur)and then see how good this man was.

5)Timur political  effect in history  was nothing except we assume the great list of cities that he razed.He just delayed the the fall of Constantipole and Anatolia by the hands of Othmans,he just sacked syria and create some pyramid of skulls and eyes in Ba'albak and Halb and.....but Mamaliks remanied powerfull and remained for 100 years later.In his war with QaraQoyunlues he many times ruined Azarbaijan,ArmeniaGeorgia (which acually ended the golden time of history in georgia),but after his death QaraQoyunlues became the ruler of westrn Iran.He sacked punjb and 100'000 of prisoners there ,By beheading and creating the biggest Skull pyramid in his life, and nothing changed in India.After his death ,his sons and grandsons just ruled another ordinary kingdom that exist befor timur invasion in Iran.

6)For considering the dimension of the brutality of Timur , I think we must see the Shahrokh son of Timur that was enemy of his father policy and tried his best to restore Khorasan to an acceptable level, he even tried to move his capital to there but he couldn't find any safe city there except Harat that after defeat of Al_e_kart by the Hand Of Timur surrounded with no resistance.

7)And never Judge except you have sufficient data,if you want I can list all of the basic sources about Timur invasion here(most of them have not been translated yet and i don't know how could you have access to them except going to Usa and National Congress Library which atleast has a micofilm from all of these books).
 
  

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