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Turkish Stucco Relief

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turkish Stucco Relief
    Posted: 21-Jun-2005 at 12:59

Does anyone know about the origin of it?

http://www.farhangsara.com/history_turkish_salj_arts.htm :


Pomp and circumstance, Turkish style.

Stucco relief from Rayy; late 12th century. It depicts the enthroned Seljuk sultan Tughril II (1194) surrounded by his officers. Beneath his feet is written: "the victotious, just king" and in the panel above are his titles.

http://www.turkishculture.org/sculpture/stone18.html :


Stucco relief from Kay-kubadh's Palace in Konya.

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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 06:37
last time I looked you were saying everyting is persian and arabic, turks have no style.. so in that manner, its a persian dragon.. with IE horsemen depicted on it.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 08:54
lol  but I think this one has a Chinese origin!
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  Quote Kenaney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 11:01
Isnt it greek, Indian or african origin cyrus?? Maybe its made by aliens huh?
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  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 11:55
hey guys,don't you know that the Seljuks were Persian?
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  Quote Kenaney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 11:58

Isnt seljuuk a persian name cyrus?

ive searched it in a irano fa$o book, it stood seljuk=holy persian.

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  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 12:09
I think this have some greek effect. And some arap,
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 12:11

Everything is possible unless disproved!

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/iselj/hod_67.119.htm :

Figure, ca. 1200; Seljuq
Iran
Painted stucco; H. 57 in. (144.8 cm), Max. W. 19 1/2 in. (49.5 cm), Max. Diam. 9 1/2 in. (24.1 cm)
Gift of Mr. and Mrs. Lester Wolfe, 1967 (67.119)

It is known from excavations and textual evidence that figures in the round or with a flattened back are known were used to decorated palaces; few, however, have survived. This sculpture, one of two in the collection of the Museum, is also interesting for the study of medieval Islamic costume. The figure, still retaining much of its polychromy, is dressed in a bejeweled overgarment with sleeve bands inscribed "Sovereignty [belongs to God]."

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  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 12:17

Ugly! Have a persian effect!

 

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 12:47

What about the stucco ornamentation of the masterpiece of Seljuks in Sirjan:

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  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 12:57
Beatiful, no pers effect
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 15:16

You are right no Persian effect but entirely in Persian style!

Seriously, I think it is a fact that Turks adopted other cultures but they themselves had also many things to add them, however these things have not been researched well enough.

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  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 15:38

They have no chance to build an architecture wonder, when they were riding horse. They need their energy for their survival.

When they settled and have chance to build an empire, Noone can say they did it bad.

They learned and try to make it better.

If you look to, Blue mosqu and Taj Mahal, you can say they did it.

Also I dont think they adapted all culture, they just adapted things they have not much before.

Architecture is one of it.

Now we are doing what they did, Learn something and try to improve it.

Infact because someone teached me something, and I made something from what I learn, they have not right to claim it.

I think they did good job, at least in beginning

 

 

 

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  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 15:19

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 16:29
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You are right no Persian effect but entirely in Persian style!

Seriously, I think it is a fact that Turks adopted other cultures but they themselves had also many things to add them, however these things have not been researched well enough.

This discussion became rediculous.

Turks dont adopt or modify other cultures, but civilizations. It has lots of different examples in history, that is a fact. There are Gothic style Hunnic houses, Chinese style Uighur stables, Indian style Babur towns and Persian-middle eastern style mosques all over Asia and Eastern Europe. All of them are made by Turks, and all of them are the most beautiful ones in their kind.

Turkish culture doesnt adopt other cultures, it just changes its shape according to the new lifestyle. But "civilization" is totally different. It comes from the word "civ" in the meaning of city in Latin. Of course Turks originally dont have specific styles of architecture, except the nomadic architecture of Turkic tents and otags. But when they build empires, or states, they adopt the most powerful regional civilization and modify it to their style. Today, even if an Ottoman mosque is a beautiful example of Middle Eastern architecture, you can easily differ it from others. It has our touch, our style in it. Seljuks adoted the dome style from Irnians, but they gavi it their style. For example, those mosques has minarets that has exactly the same style with Turkish belief of "Tur", and Turkic tents.

When Turks arrived at middle East by conquering Persia, they witnessed the greatest "civ"ilization there, and they became to build even better buildings with their modified style of local architecture. This is rule 1 in nomadic culture, keep your cultural roots, dont be assimilated, adopt any potential civilizaion into your necessary usage. So practically, when Seljuks adopted the Persian architecture and modified it, it became Turkish architecture, not Persian nor Muslim.

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  Quote merced12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2005 at 12:48

Turan Boylarnn Yaylmas

     The ancient era of the Turkish history before the immigration of the tribes (until the middle of the IV. Century A.D.) is still not fully discovered. It is certain that the Turkish tribes have proved themselves very early in world history as a republic establishment with a perfect organisation and as a constructive and creative element. Events that occurred in the past in the country of the Turks are essential evidence, which show that the Turkish folk is a huge nation in all ways. Since the Turkish tribes have entered the stage of history they have always showed that they have attained the highest grade with both their republic organisation and their disciplined way of life and military organisation.

       According to historical conditions some parts of the Turkish tribes used to live as nomads, besides there were also groups of Turks encountered very early in time who were engaged in agriculture in villages and with trade and arts in cities. From this point of view it would be a mistake to suppose the ancient ages of the Turkish people only as "a nomad group". As a matter of fact big part of the ancient Trkeli was a steppe, people who lived on this ground were naturally forced to live as nomads. We can see that the republics, whether "nomad" or "solid", founded by the Turks have achieved great works due to strong personalities and excellent organisations, and also achieved productive works according to place and time in all fields of life. Great military republics were build up as well as history records show also very important Turkish republics or groups who created trade, economy and cultural centres.

THE CONSIDERATION OF THE TURKISH TURAN HISTORY
       During the whole history many Turkish republics were build, some of these ruled over the world as super-powers (world republics). Here we have to point out that those republics, which had all different names, actually were the arms of one republic, the Turkish Republic. The reason why they were remembered with different names was because the names of their founders, the dynasties, the principalities were held one with the government name. Sometimes we can also see that there were more than one Turkish government at the same period of time, who even fought against each other for superiority. This situation can also be seen in the history of other nations.
       The difference is, that although these nations from time to time could not able save their existence as a republic, at least one independent Turkish Republic always existed through the history. After this brief explanation on the expression "Turkish Republics" we would also like to point out the following: Maybe the number of Turkish governments which were ruled under a president were the shining stars of the Turkish history, these are not the only shining stars of our history. And the Asian Hun Empire, which is presented as the first of these stars, is doubtless not the first Turkish Republic. But near-time records only give us enough information to start Turkish history with the Hun Turks.
       The number of Turkish governments, which took place in history with different names whether in pre-Islamic or the lasting Islamic period until today is more than 110. 15 of these are empires, 38 non-empire governments, 34 principalities, 4 ancestor-principalities, 17 khanates. Moreover we do also count the Turkish republics that were established since 1918 until today, and the last one is North Cyprus Turkish Republic. Government forms like emperorship, principality, ancestor-principality are rarely seen on other nations. Of course other nations do have similar political foundations but these show differences in many ways.
       The great republics, the Turks established by taking many republics and different tribes under their sovereignty were called Emperorship (Hakanlk) or shorter Land (l) or Country (El). Sometimes even republics which did not took the form of emperorship were called with the common name "l" or "El". In order to run wide geographical territories and different kinds of populations with more success, a Turkish Republic that took the form of emperorship, e.g. the Hun Emperorship, was divided in two as "East Emperorship" and "West Emperorship". Theoretical the biggest monarch was the emperor of the East Turkish Country and the emperor of the West Turkish Country had to follow. Both emperorships contained nations that were not of Turkish origin. This kind of administrative dividing was also seen at the Gk-Trks. The number of foreign republics under the Turkish leadership of the Asian Hun Emperorship in 2. century B.C. was 26, at Attila's time (5. century A.D.) the number of different foreign nations depending on he West Hun's were about 35.
       The "PRINCIPALITIES" were under the force of the Sultan but they owned bordered land and the principal elements were constituted by the Turks. Within their own boundaries they were totally independent. Only in war times they helped the sultan and in other times they paid taxes: Karluk Principality, Tolunlular Principality, Saltuklu Principality, Karamanoullar Principality, Aydnoullar Principality.... etc. Sometimes the principalities grew up very strong and when the emperorship weakened and collapsed they took their place.
       For example Seluk Bey, Osman Bey formed their principalities that were named after themselves to emperorships, that again carried their own names.Also "ANCESTOR-PRINCIPALITY" can rarely be seen on other nations. The title "Atabey" was given to the wise man who educated, trained and lead the children of the monarchs - the so called "tigin" that means the little princes - who were sent to far distance places so that they could achieve experience. Some of them, especially the ones who were far away from the centres, took the administration of the region they located when the republic began to weaken and announced their independence. For example the Tuteinli and the Bri had founded the Syrian Ancestor-Principality, the l-Denizli had founded the Azerbaidjan Ancestor-Principality.
       The "KHANATE" was more a political formation that occurred after the disintegration of the Golden-Army republic. After Timur took Uzbekisthan the Golden-Army scattered and the leading members of the dynasty who lived in the steppes of Kpak started to fight for the throne and monarchy. The ones who started or won the fight, called themselves - to represent the former Turkish State khans - "Han" or "Kagan"; and the states they founded they called "Khanate": The Kazan Khanate, Uzbek Khanate, Crimea Khanate, Buhara Khanate, Kagar-Turfan Khanate...etc.
       It is obvious that Turkish States had also be formed before the Hun Emperorship but due to the lack of documents and sources we are only possible to track their existence as from the Asian Hun Emperorship.
    Being one of the eldest and rooted tribes, the Turks are a nation who spread out to Asia, Europe and Africa within their about 4 thousand year old past. Their permanent immigrations from their motherland in Middle Asia shows us that the Turks are also crowded in population, too. Because of their big numbers in population and their active conditions the Turks took an important place in world history.
yayilis-k.JPG (4400 bytes)         The Name "Turk": As for the fact that the Turks have been an ancient population, explorers were lead to investigate the name Turk in the eldest history sources. Since the past century many wise man had put forward the view that the Targitas Heredot mentioned among the east tribes, or the "Tyrakae" (Yurkae) for whom it is said they lived on the acres of the "Iskit" or the Togharmans who were mention in the Torah, or the Turukhals (or Turushka) who are encountered in the ancient Indian sources, or the Thraks, or the Turukkus who can be found in the old Front Asian cuneiforms, or the Tiks (or Di) who played role in the Chinese sources in 1000 B.C. and even the Trojans etc. were Turkish tribes who personally wore the name "Turk".
         In the Iranian Zend-Avesta narrations which can be found in detail in the Islamic sources and in the Israely origin Torah narratives the name "Turk" was searched at Noah's grandson (son of Yafes) Turk, or the son of Feridun (Threatona) Turac or Tur (Turan derivates from here) were intended to be shown as the first tribes who had the name Turk. According to the narrations in the Torah, after the Flood the Prophet Noah shared out the earth between his three sons. Yafes got Middle Asia and the Chinese nations, after Yafes' death he left the throne to "Turk" who was one of his eight sons.
The first written usage of the word Turk can be seen in 1328 B.C. in Chinese history as "Tu-Kiu".
       The name Turk showed up on the history stage the first with the in VI. Century A.D. established Gk-Trk State. The name "Turk" in the scripts of the Orhun is rather shown as "Turuk". Therefore it is known that the name Turk for the first time was used as an official representation for the Turkish State by the political formation the GK-TRK Emperorship. In the first period of the Gk-Trks the word Turk was used to describe a certain form of state, later on it was used to describe the Turkish nation.
The name Turk became official with the letter the Chinese Emperor wrote to the GK-TRK khan Isbara in 585 A.D. where he called him "The Great Turkish Khan", hereof the Khan Isbara wrote back in his letter to the Chinese Emperor "It has been past 50 years since the Turkish State has been established by God".
        In the Gk-Trk scripts the word Turk is moreover used as "Turk Budun". It is known that the Turk Budun is the Turkish Nation. Therefore the name Turk in this period stands rather for a determination of a political membership than the name of a population or a tribe. That means it became a national name to convey all the tribes and populations who were member of the Turkish Race.

        The Meaning of the Expression Turk

        Different meanings were given to the expression Turk as well in sources as in investigations: T'u-kue (Turk) = helmet (Chinese sources); (Turk) = renouncement (Islamic sources); Turk = maturity period; Takye = man sitting by the seaside, to attract etc. meanings and interpretations like this. In the last century A.Vambery's idea, which was accepted as a first step to a scientific explanation was that the expression "Turk" came from "to derive". Z.Gkalp explained the name as "tureli" (which means law and order possessive). The thought of W.Barthold is near to this. But it was taken from a Turkish document that meaning of the common noun of the expression "Turk" is "force-power" (the attribute: forceful-powerful). Here it was claimed by A.V. Le Coq that the expression "Turk" was the same as the word "Turk" which stood for the nations name, this was also accepted by V. Thomsen the solver of the Gk-Trk scripts (1922), later on the same matter was totally proved by the studies of Nemeth.
        As in Iranian sources the word Trk is being used as "Beautiful Human", in XI. Century Kasgarli Mahmut states again that "the name Turk was given to the Turks by God" and carries the meaning "Youth, power, strength and maturity period". But the historian accepts the meaning "forceful-powerful".

       The Expression Turk as a Nations Name

       The first political formation who used the name "Turk" as an official name for a Turkish State had been the "Gk-Trk Emperorship" (552-774). All this, was to prove that the name "Turk" was basically not an "ethnic" name for a particular population but an political name. Since the foundation of the Gk-Trk Emperorship it became first the name of this state, later on the common name of the other Turks who were called by their own names and were depending on this emperorship, and with the time passing by it rose to a national name that was used to identify all the populations belonging to the Turkish race.
       The Use of the Expression Turk as a Geographical Name
       The geographical name Turkhia (=Turkey) was first seen in the Byzantian sources. In the VI. Century this phrase was used for Middle Asia. In the 9th -10th century this name was given to the complete area from the Volga to Middle Europe (East Turkey = the land of the Khazar, West Turkey = land of the Hungary). In the 13th century at the period of the Slavery State Egypt and Syria was called "Turkey". Anatolia was known as "Turkey" since the 12th century.
       The Turkish Race, the Characteristics of the Turkish Race
       The definitions about the Turkish Race that were made in history are quite confusing. In Chinese yearbooks as well as in Latin and Greek sources the Turks have rather been described as Mongolian types. The reason why the Turks were shown as "mongoloids" in ancient times can be explained by the fact that in those times the Mongolian element was a majority among the Turkish States. Through the whole history of the Turks, the nearest contact was to their close neighbour the Mongolians. The crowded Mongolian populations had joined under the Turkish regency (like the Tabgac's at the Asian Hun's) and ten thousands of Mongolians had shared long immigrations together with the Turks (like the East Hun's). Furthermore if we consider the possibility of mixture of the races caused by this close contact, the observation of foreigners should be not so surprising to us.
       Essentially the scientific investigations made in the last half of this century brought forward that the Turks belong to the white race and it came out that the Turks - belonging to the "Turanid" type of the "Europid" group which is one of the three big race groups on earth - had many different anthropological criteria that separated them in first line from the "Mongoloid" Mongolians (dominating quality white colour, straight nose, round face, lightly curly hair, middle dense beard and moustache).
       Furthermore, it is known that the Turkish race as in the Torah narrations (not from Ham and Sam, but from the race of Yafes) is shown from the white race. As a sample of the Turan type the Middle Asian, Maveraunnehir and other Near-East Turks were shown as white-skinned, dark shiny eyed, round faced ("moon faced, almond eyed"), well-proportioned, strong build men and women (the bust of Kl Tegin Prince of the Gk-Trk) who were show as a sample of beauty in the sources of the Middle Ages and even in Iranian literature the word "Turk" came to the meaning "beautiful human".
       The Motherland of the Turks
       The subject on which land the Turks lived before they started to immigrate is still a matter that is discussed since the last century. The historian, according to Chinese sources, accept the Altay Mountains as the motherland of the Turks, as for the ethnologists think of the north regions of Inner Asia, the anthropologists consider the region between the Kirghiz Steppe and God Mountains, the art historians show the north-west region of Asia or the south-west of the Baykal-Sea; some linguists believed that the east and west of the Altay Mountains or the Kingan Chains should be the motherland of the Turks.
       Considering all this it is nearly possible to draw the geographical borders of the ancient Turk lands. Besides, they spread out to wide and defined areas of land from the first time on and have probably carried out their culture to very far places. Serious linguistic researches allow to consider this area as between the Altay - Ural Mountains, and even to take the motherland of the Turks as the north of the Caspian Sea and the north-east steppes. The cultures Afanayevo (2500-1700 B.C.) and the Anronovo (1700-1200 B.C.) that were found just in the west of the North Altay Mountains (the Minusinsk region), from whom especially the representative race of the second was considered to be the prototype of the warrior Turkish race.

 

       Starting from very ancient times the immigration activities had last - with interruptions - for more than thousands of years. Although the dates of the great Turk immigrations that took place Before Christ are not clearly known, it was possible to fix some of them. 1500 - 1000 B.C. certain Turks used to live in Far East. It is possible to track the existence of Turks in ancient ages in North China and today's Mongolia.
   It must have been very long time ago in history that the arm of the Turks which are the Yakuts and the avus have left the main body and the Yakuts have moved to east Sybira; because they are the Turkish tribes whose language differ mostly from the "main Turkish" and especially Yakutish is the most changing dialect today.
          On the other hand there are signs that show that in 1300 - 1000 B.C. some parts of the Turks have been in Turkmenia. It is also estimated that one part of the Turks turned to west and lived together with the "Iskits" around the grounds of Volga (VI.-III century B.C.). Another estimation is that the first Turkish moves were around the beginning of the first century B.C. to the suburbs of the Indian Indus-Pencap region. In older history it is possible that the Turks have moved to Mesopotamia crossing the Iranian plateaus.
Clear information about the groups that joined the Turk Immigrations After Christ and when they took place are present: The Huns to Europe (in 375 and later on) and north India (White-Huns); Oguzlar, from the Orhun region down to the sides of river Seyhun (X. Century) and later on over the Maveraunnehir to Iran and Anatolia (XI.Century); the European Huns from Middle Asia to Middle Europe (middle of IV. Century); the Bulgarian to the sides of river Itil (Volga) and to the Balkans in the north Blacksee (after the years 641); together with the Hungarians some Turk groups from the north of the Caucas to Middle Europe (after 830); the Sabars from the north of Aral to Caucasia (second half of 5th century); the Peenek, Kuman (Kpak) and Uzlar (arm of the Ouzlar) from the north of the Caspian Sea to east Europe and the Balkans (9th - 11th century); the Uygur's from the region of river Orhun to inner Asia (after the years of 840).
               Especially the Hun and Ouz immigrations were made over long distances and also brought very important historical solutions. These immigrations are being qualified as great conquests carrying the intention of founding new fatherlands. Another form of the spread out of the Turks in history is the "infiltration" form, which occurs with the dividing of groups or families or strong proportioned young men from some crowded tribes and take service in foreign states. Even in this form it is known that the Turks showed a dominant ability and ruled military forces or political lives and sometimes also founded new states among the communities they entered (e.g. in Egypt, in India).

sizma-k.JPG (5188 bytes)

         Doubtless it was not always easy for the Turks to spread out in their abilities of "conquest" or "infiltration", sometimes this caused very vehement fights which lead to the solution that the Turks were approved unattractive by foreigners, who took hard strikes. Although they were good, fair and equitable people the reason for some imaginary accusations against the Turks could be these situations
 

http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2005 at 13:06
Merced 12, it would be nice if you presented an introduction of your own. You will need to provide your source as well.
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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2005 at 13:18
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You are right no Persian effect but entirely in Persian style!

Seriously, I think it is a fact that Turks adopted other cultures but they themselves had also many things to add them, however these things have not been researched well enough.

As you see it is written in Arabic scripts as Iran use even today.

So stop thinking about that everybody has adopted something from Persians and see the facts. What Persian style you are talking about? This is a combinely created style by nations of Iran.

At least since 1.000 years the country's (today called Iran) culture has been shaped by many different nations. The most important nation is Turks since they have the biggest population share inside the country and they have ruled Iran nearly 1.000 years.

After Turks mollahs came........

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2005 at 13:26

Not again

 

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2005 at 15:31
Originally posted by Alparslan

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You are right no Persian effect but entirely in Persian style!

Seriously, I think it is a fact that Turks adopted other cultures but they themselves had also many things to add them, however these things have not been researched well enough.

As you see it is written in Arabic scripts as Iran use even today.

So stop thinking about that everybody has adopted something from Persians and see the facts. What Persian style you are talking about? This is a combinely created style by nations of Iran.

At least since 1.000 years the country's (today called Iran) culture has been shaped by many different nations. The most important nation is Turks since they have the biggest population share inside the country and they have ruled Iran nearly 1.000 years.

After Turks mollahs came........

Text look familiar?  It is Sassanid, derived from Phoenecian, the same as Perso-Arabic script - ARABS wrote in runes in pre Quranic times.



Edited by Zagros
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