Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Was the Byzantine Empire mainly a Hellenic Empire?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Kenaney View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 28-Apr-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 543 		  Quote Kenaney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was the Byzantine Empire mainly a Hellenic Empire?
    Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 13:04
Thats (maybe) why the Turks call the greeks somethimes "Rum".
OUT OF LIMIT
Back to Top
Raider View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 06-Jun-2005
Location: Hungary
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 804 		  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 07:05

 

I have consulted this question in the book Byzanz by Peter Schreiner.

According to Schreiner the term rhomanoi was used independently from nationality or ethnic groups.  Schreiner states that orthodoxy was in close relation with this term. For example jews were always excluded.
Back to Top
Phallanx View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283 		  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 23:49
The term Roman was originally adopted in order to denounce the pagan past. While it is very true that the Byzantine empire was a multi-ethnic one, by no means does this mean that any of it's subjects ceased to identify and support their own ethnicity.

The Byzantine Hellines demanded and actually managed quite early to be distinguished from the other population of the empire with the term "".
There were actually two terms that described the population of the empire.

"=Romioi" and "=Romaioi" were used but there was one difference. The first was created in order to indicate generally the Hellinic Orthodox members of the "=genos"= (gender,blood), while the second to indicate the Orthodox Christians of the empire in general."

We actually find that the reference of a Hellinic ethnicity is continuouly reminded to part of the subjects.(the Hellinic part)
Constantine Porphyrogennitos tells us how the Slavs had attacked the Greeks, (kata ton Graikon).
George Gemistos Plethon, Anna Komnene, Michael Psellos (just to mention a few) begin to use the denounced pagan term Hellin to describe only the people of Hellinic origin.
Psellos at one time actually attacks Herodotus and names him a "philo-Persian" that dared to insult his ancestors by showing favor to the Persians.

Further proof that "=(gender,blood) was of major interest to the Hellinic population at least, are the many references to rasism toward our Christian brothers of rmenia, I recall that there is a poem by Cassiani (unfortunately don't have the title) that could be labeled "racsist" against the Armenians.

But, we must keep in mind that we are talking about a theocratic empire, where the use of the terms Hellas and Hellinas were strictly forbidden since they reminded people of their pagan past, hence we see the damnations on Orthodox Sunday. (platonic ideas, platonic teachings
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Back to Top
Morgoth View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jun-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote Morgoth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 23:14

Of course the empire was multi-ethnic as one would expect given its size and location. To me this seems of very little importance. What is important is that the Roman Empire (for we must never forget that it was the Roman Empire) became linguistically and culturally Greek. Also, ethnicity is primarily defined by culture and languge anyway, so that seems a moot point. The aristocracy was Greek and the state became Greek, thus the Empire was Greek.



Edited by Morgoth
Back to Top
Mosquito View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Location: Sarmatia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 20:32
I would say it was more greek but roman influences were strong. Basically the Greeks were living under the rules of roman law, using legal institutions invented by the best roman lawyers. Corpus Iuris Civilis was one of the greatest achievements of Byzantium.
Back to Top
dorian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 19:41

That's true for the name "Romans". But it was used basically for the Greeks "Romioi".

The region of modern Greece was not important for the Empire? It was one of the vital regions like modern Syria for example. Besides the suppositive Greek field extended to Constantinople and Minor Asia.

Again offensive language. "If you like it or not", "That's why we hired you in AE" etc    Everyone who claims to be an expert post something and considers himself undisputed. 



Edited by dorian
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
Back to Top
Komnenos View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Administrator

Joined: 20-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4361 		  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 15:33
Originally posted by GENERAL PARMENION


I dont want to repeat myself.




Let me try again.
In 212 emperor Caracalla decreed that all free citizens of the Roman Empire, regardless of their ethnic identity had the right to call themselves "Romans".
As after the collapse of the Western-roman Empire, the Eastern half quite rightly regarded themselves as the only rightful heirs of the Roman Empire, and continued to call themselves "Romans" and with the gradual Hellenisation of the Empire the term was adopted into Greek as "Romaioi".
But the term "Romaioi" was a political one, not an ethnic, indicated the affiliation with the idea of the Empire, and not with a particular national group.

That over the centuries the B.E. was reduced to a territory that allowed for a identity between ethnicity and state, namely today's Greece, might explain why the term "Romaioi" eventually became synonymous with the population of Greece, and why the Turks called the Greeks "Rum".
The original meaning however was a different one.
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
Back to Top
GENERAL PARMENION View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 07-Jun-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 75 		  Quote GENERAL PARMENION Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 15:07

Originally posted by GENERAL PARMENION

As i said before , Greek and Roman turned out to mean the same thing. Bare in mind that at the time of the Byzantine Empire all of its citizens where refered as " Roman citizens ". True , but ONLY Greeks called themselves Romans . A " Roman " was a synonym for " Greek ". Bulgarians , slavs in general , Armenians e.t.c. never called themselves Romans . They where simply citizens of the Roman Empire.

I dont want to repeat myself.
"There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks."
(Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author" In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA)

Back to Top
Komnenos View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Administrator

Joined: 20-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4361 		  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 15:03
Originally posted by GENERAL PARMENION

You obviously know nothing about the Byzantine Empire and the " Greco - Roman " issue.


That why we've hired you for AE!
So, please, please, explain to us how the terms "Greek" and "Romaioi" can be applied to the multi-ethnic and multi-cultural character of the Byzantine Empire.
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
Back to Top
GENERAL PARMENION View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 07-Jun-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 75 		  Quote GENERAL PARMENION Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 14:45
You obviously know nothing about the Byzantine Empire and the " Greco - Roman " issue.
"There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks."
(Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author" In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA)

Back to Top
Komnenos View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Administrator

Joined: 20-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4361 		  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 14:36
Originally posted by GENERAL PARMENION

. A " Roman " was a synonym for " Greek ". Bulgarians , slavs in general , Armenians e.t.c. never called themselves Romans .


Unless, of course, they had become Emperors themselves, like:

Heraclius(610-641) whose father was Armenian
Leo III the Isaurian (717-741)
Leo V the Armenian (813-820)
Basil I (867-886) of Armenian/Macedonian descent

to name a few.


And, surprise, surprise, there even was a German Byzantine Emperor:

Tiberius III (698-705), a German army officer called Apsimar

The term "Romaioi" did not refer to ethnic , but to cultural Greeks, citizens and Emperors of the East-Roman Empire, be they ethnic Greeks, or Armenians, or Bulgars, or even Germans.
And if you like it not, today's Greece was only a very small and not even a very important part of an Empire that was more "multi-cultural" than any of today's nations will hopefully become.






Edited by Komnenos
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
Back to Top
GENERAL PARMENION View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 07-Jun-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 75 		  Quote GENERAL PARMENION Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 13:58
As i said before , Greek and Roman turned out to mean the same thing. Bare in mind that at the time of the Byzantine Empire all of its citizens where refered as " Roman citizens ". True , but ONLY Greeks called themselves Romans . A " Roman " was a synonym for " Greek ". Bulgarians , slavs in general , Armenians e.t.c. never called themselves Romans . They where simply citizens of the Roman Empire.
"There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks."
(Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author" In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA)

Back to Top
Morgoth View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jun-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote Morgoth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 04:34

We must remember that the term "Byzantine Empire" is really just an academic one, though undoubtably a useful one.

The way I discribe the Byzantine Empire is thus - it was the Greek Christian, Eastern Roman Empire.

Culturally and linguistically, the empire was very much Greek. It was also, however, Roman.



Edited by Morgoth
Back to Top
Komnenos View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Administrator

Joined: 20-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4361 		  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 03:57
Originally posted by GENERAL PARMENION

Anyway , what is this Greek - Roman dispute taking place for?


As far as i am concerned , even the original Roman Empire was infact a " Greek" Empire aswell.


The Romans borowed our culture , religion , architecture e.t.c. The Romans where a continuation of the Greek civilization. They where " Greeks " in a way. Greek and Roman are the same thing.



You have a very simplistic view on how cultures evolve.
Civilisations don't "borrow", they are influenced by and interact with others, they adopt and further develop new ideas and technologies, and exchange them.
This is not the space to discuss the influences on classical Hellenistic culture, but you will find they "borrowed" quite a lot of ideas from other civilisations.
Of course the Roman empire was heavily influenced by Hellenistic culture, but to deny that had their very own distinct Roman culture that was very different from any other, is historical nonsense.
If you apply the three criteria "culture, religion, architecture" to your alleged sequence of Hellenistic culture, however it must be said, that the Middle or Late Byzantine Empire shared very little with the Classical Greek culture, neither religion nor architecture, and culture only in a very evolved form.
Language and alphabet maybe, but the latter one was "borrowed" from the Phoenicians anyway!
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
Back to Top
Raider View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 06-Jun-2005
Location: Hungary
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 804 		  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 03:32

"The Romans borowed our culture , religion , architecture e.t.c. The Romans where a continuation of the Greek civilization. They where " Greeks " in a way. Greek and Roman are the same thing."

I disagree. Romans borrowed many thing, but their culture diffred from the Greek's. This was one of the major problem of the empire. Romanisation in the west, and hellenization in the east. This eas the root of the eventual division of the empire.
Back to Top
dorian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 17:35
Originally posted by GENERAL PARMENION

Anyway , what is this Greek - Roman dispute taking place for?

As far as i am concerned , even the original Roman Empire was infact a  " Greek" Empire aswell.

The Romans borowed our culture , religion , architecture e.t.c. The Romans where a continuation of the Greek civilization. They where " Greeks " in a way. Greek and Roman are the same thing.

Totally agreed

Besides the Ottoman Empire was Turkish although it was multi-ethnic and included the ex-Byzantine region.



Edited by dorian
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
Back to Top
GENERAL PARMENION View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 07-Jun-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 75 		  Quote GENERAL PARMENION Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 16:00

Anyway , what is this Greek - Roman dispute taking place for?

As far as i am concerned , even the original Roman Empire was infact a  " Greek" Empire aswell.

The Romans borowed our culture , religion , architecture e.t.c. The Romans where a continuation of the Greek civilization. They where " Greeks " in a way. Greek and Roman are the same thing.
"There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks."
(Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author" In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA)

Back to Top
dorian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 09:57

Since the 6th century AD Greek was the official language of the Byzantine Empire. The culture was Greek and not Roman (which was formed by the Greek one). There are many references of the people called Greeks.

Constantinople was the cradle of Hellenism and The Fall of Constantinople was a Greek defeat by the Ottomans.

The fact that the Byzantine Empire was a Hellenic Empire is unquestionable amongst historians.

It was the second Greek Empire of history after the Macedonian Empire.



Edited by dorian
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
Back to Top
Yiannis View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329 		  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 06:38

I guess it's a matter of point of view. If you consider bloodlines as a mark of nationality (a term that was in any case not applicable back then) it's impossible to say for sure.

If "nationality" is an inherited, cultural characteristic, then probably yes.
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
Back to Top
Raider View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 06-Jun-2005
Location: Hungary
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 804 		  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 06:00

 

Of course the question is the same again. Who is Greek?

A population of the Byzantine Empire was culturaly hellenized. This sole fact is enough? (I use the term Byzantine Empire after the arab conquest, and Eastern Roman Empire before.)

 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.