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Iranian Huns and the Ghaljay Afghans

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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Iranian Huns and the Ghaljay Afghans
    Posted: 19-Jun-2005 at 17:00

Who are the Ghaljay Afghans?

GHILJAY/GHILZAI/KHALJI/KHILJI/KHALAJ:

A large and widespread Afghan tribe, who extend from Kalat-i-Ghilzai on the S. to the Kabul river on the N., and from the Gul Koh range on the W. to the Indian border on the E., in many places overflowing these boundaries. The popular theory of the origin of the Ghilzais traces them to the Turkish tribe of Kilji, once occupying districts bordering the upper course of the Syr Darya (Jaxartes), and affirms that they were brought into Afghanistan by the Turk Sabuktagin in the 10th century. However that Inay be, the Ghilzai clans now rank collectively as second to none in strength of military and commercial enterprise. They are a fine, manly race of people, and it is from some of their most influential clans (Suliman Khel, Nasir Khel, Kharotis, &c.) that the main body of povindah merchants is derived.

- 1911 Encyclopedia

The Hephtalites and their Relationship with the Khalaj

Khalaj were identified by the Russian scholar Barthold as two of the 24 tribes of the Ghuzz Turks.  But new intriguing evidence shows that the Khalaj may actually have been there longer than before.  Evidence is now leaning that they may have been an indigenous, Iranian pagan tribe that was later identified with Turks.

Modern scholars claim the Hephtalites were a Polyandrous, Sun-worshipping people before the emergence of the Ghozz Turks.   They also had an empire that was even larger than that of Ahmad Shah Durrani.


Hephtalite Empire/Sphere of Dominance

The Afghan Folktale of Bibi Mato

The story proceeds: Qais Alias Abdur Rashid Alias Pehtan had three sons named Sarban, Batan and Ghurghust. Most of the present-day Afghan tribes claim descent from these three persons. Batan had a daughter named Bibi Matto. She fell in love with Hussain Shah, a prince of Turkish origin, and their intimacy reached a stage where her pregnancy could not be concealed. Marriage was the only course open, but the offspring, a boy, was given the name of Ghilzai, meaning in the Afghan language a son 'born of theft'. Bibi Matto's next son was Ibrahim who, because of his intelligence and wisdom, was addressed by Qais as Loi-dey (Lodi) i. e., Ibrahim is great.

The only problem with this folktale, is that "Loi Dey" in Pashto doesn't mean he is great, actually it just means he is "big."  The correct Pashto would be "Ibrahim Mashr Dey"

Folktale Clues

Using the folktale,  there are some clear indications from the story that do correlate with history.  One being the emergence of another empire stepping on the foot of the Afghan frontier and a story of a foreign presence that is felt in Afghanistan, and that intermarriage did occur, either by force, or to form new alliances.

In this context one might see the Ghilzais as being the amalgamation of a Turkish tribe with Afghans.  But if the Khalaj were Turks, where did they come from?

This is the question that needs some clarification.  Could the Khalaj be from a even further past, during the time of the Hephtalites?   It would be hard to prove considering the Hephtalites are still one of the most intriguing people to be studied by scholars.  A few ancient manuscripts have been found, along with a bust, and an inscription that identifies the Hephtalites:


Modern scholars such as Enoki describe the White Huns/Hephtalites as an Iranian tribe that originated from the Hindu Kush mountains.

"....Ephthalite origins may be determined by considering where they were not, as well as by where their conquests drove their enemies. They were not previously north of the Tien Shan, thus they did not stem from that region. They drove the Kidarites out of Balkh to the west, thus they came originally from the east. By such reasoning, the Ephthalites are thought to have originated at Hsi-mo-ta-lo (southwest of Badakhshan and near the Hindu Kush), which tantalizingly, stands for Himtala, "snow plain", which may be the Sanskritized form of Hephthal."

As their empire shows, the central focal spot of their empire is the Hindu Kush.  Regardless of their origins, by the end of the 6th century AD, there emerges a group of tribes with an Iranian background and language, but not fire worshippers, rather sun worshippers, made up of successive hordes overlaid at the last by a Hunnish conquest, and with a centre of historical attraction towards the Gandhara Valley.

Arabic/Persian Sources

Arabic/Persian name for the Hephtalites/Ephtalites was Haytal or Hayatila, and they are so mentioned by Firdausi in his Shahnameh.  In his commentary on the Hudud al Alam, the late Russian Professor Minorsky quotes two early passages from Arab chroniclers that link the Khalaj with the Hayatilas aka Ephtalites.

A)  From the Mafatih al Ulum of Al-Khwarezmi written in 975 AD (H. 365): The Hayatila are a tribe of men who had enjoyed grandeur and possessed the country of Tukharistan; the Turks called Khalukh, or Khalaj, are their descendants.

B)  From the Kitab al Masalik of Istakhri, written in 933 AD (H. 321): The Khalaj are a kind of Turks who in the days of old came to the country between Hind and the districts of Sijistan (Sakastan/Sistan) behind Ghor.  They are catle-breeders of Turkish apperance, dress, language.

Takharistan is what is now north-eastern Afghansitan, around Baghlan.  Takharistan was actually one of the major strongholds of the Hephtalites during their dominant period in history, so it correlates well to the 2 passages above.   Both passages take the Khalaj back some five centuries before the Ghuzz migrations, making their ancestors the White Huns.

 

The Kochi

Afghanistan has a substantial number of nomadic people,often estimated at 10 percent of the country's total population. They are primarily sheep raisers who live in tents andtravel seasonally in caravans with baggage animals (camels, horses and donkeys) that can move the people and house-hold goods long distances over fixed migration routes.

They are commonly known as "Kuchi", a term derived from the Persian kuch, to move or migrate. In eastern Afghanistan, kuchi is applied to all nomads who live in black goat hairtents (ghizhdi) and are seen as having a distinct culture, habitation and economy that sets them apart from the sedentary villagers whose lands they pass through. 

Although most Kuchis are engaged in pastoralism, poorer communities that lack animals use their mobility as seasonal grain harvesters and some other groups historically specialized in trade.  Approaching Kandahar in the south, Kuchis are also called powindahs (literally grazers).  

Kochi Child

In western and northern Afghanistan the term maldar (herdowner) replaces Kuchi and is applied to any group that that makes its living through flock keeping. This changing terminology reflects the less rigid boundary between nomads and sedentary peoples thatis the product of different ecological and cultural conditions in these regions. The term Kuchi is not applied to gypsy-like groups of itinerant artisans or entertainers (Jat,Jugi, Ghorbat, etc.) who typically employ white canvas tents (Ferdinand 1962, 1969:127-129).  While Kuchis are an identifiable occupational group, they do not share a single ethnicity or language. 

Although a largemajority of them are Ghilzai Pashtun, most Pashtuns are not nomadic and many groups of nomads in Afghanistan are not Pashtun. Even among Pashtun nomads there are clear dis-tinctions between the Ghilzai Pakhtun of eastern Afghani-stan and the Durrani Pashtun nomads of western and northern Afghanistan (often generically called Kandahari regard-less of location). They speak different dialects of Pashto, employ a distinctively different styles of black tent, and have different forms of labor allocation (Ferdinand 1969:146-7).

Recently links have been made between the rug patterns of Kuchis and that of the ancient Tocharians.  J. Barry O'Connel Jr is quoted as saying:

"This is one of 9 known examples in the world. These all apparently were bought in the market in Murkur Afghanistan, which is a major market for Pashtun Nomads often called Cutchis (Kuchis). Similar rugs were found in the Tarim Basin Archeological digs. Those were attributed to the Tocharians."

 

 

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2005 at 17:24
I thought it was the Chionite/Kidarite "Red" Huns that have invaded Afghanistan and not the Ephtalite "White" Huns...
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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2005 at 17:42
if I put 1 cent in a box for the times that someone was claimed to be greek, persian, Indo-european, Indo-bla bla I would be a millionaire by now.. usually a persons political view or ethnical preference decides what the origins of some tribe, people will be...

so 1911 encyclopedia.. ottoman empire falling apart, europeans/arabs ready to dice up the empire like a pack of flies on a carcas.. written by some author possible bias towards non-turks.. just throw that info down the drain will you..

Arabs will say they were arabs, persians persian..turk turk so best to try to find other sources that might really make the all the above valid, and those sources have to be of the date not some 'historian' writing at a later date.. ps 1 for, 1 against the idea, then take the golden middle of the both to be true, then you're more closer to the truth..

white huns - Ak hun's Are considered to be of turkic origin for various reasons
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2005 at 19:18

Baracuda,

My post is not just about who they were, but what they are today - Afghans.

 

 

 

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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 09:44

The Khalaj West of the

Oxus

V. Minorsky

Excerpts from "The Turkish Dialect of the Khalaj", Bulletin of the School of Oriental Studies, University of London, Vol 10, No 2, pp 417-437

Muslim authors agree that the Khalaj are one of the earliest tribes to have crossed the Oxus. In addition to I. Khurdadhbih whom we have quoted above, Istakhri (circa AD 930) [1] says: The Khalaj are a class of Turks who in the days of the old (fi qadim al-ayyam) came to the country stretching between India and the districts of Sijistan, behind Ghur. They are cattle breeders of Turkish appearance (khilaq), dress, and language. Masudi, Muruj (AD 943), iii, 254, speaks of the Turkish tribes Ghuz and living towards Gharsh (= Gharchistan) and Bust in (the region) adjoining Sijistan. Contrary to Marquart, Eranshahr, 251, I think that  must be read here *Kharlukh, and on the other hand, under Ghuz the author may mean the Khalaj, for, as we now know from Kashghari, the Khalaj were considered as the two lost tribes of the Ghuzz. [2]

If Istakhri and Masudi (?) place the Khalaj on the middle course of the Helmand, the compilator of the Hudud al-Alam (AD 982), f. 22b quotes the Khalaj in the region of Ghaznin and the adjoining districts. He speaks of their wealth in sheep and describes their habit of wandering along pasture-lands. He adds that the same tribe is numerous in Balkh, Tukharistan, Bust and Guzganan. In fact the name is misspelt in the MS. as and it is very possible that the author has mixed together the Khallukh and Khalaj . In Tukharistan and (?) Balkh he most probably has in view the former tribe, and in Ghaznin, Bust, and Guzganan the latter.

The Saffarids were the first Muslim dynasty to penetrate into Central Afghanistan. According to Ibn al-Athir, vii, 171, [3] Yaqub conquered (AD. 868) the Khalaj, Zabul and other (lands) but I do not know the year in which it happened.

The Ghaznavids, from the outset of their activity, had to deal with the Khalaj. Nizam al-mulk [4] reports an episode of Sabuktagins early career when he was sent by his master Alaptagin (d. 352/963) to collect taxes from the Khalaj and Turkmans, which he tried to do by peaceful means. In 385/995 Sabuktagin being in Herat, sent summons to the rulers of Sistan and Guzganan as well as to the *Khalaj Turks. [5]

Utbi, in his history (written circa 411/1020) refers to the Khalaj several times: i, 55, he announces his intention to narrate Mahmuds victories in India, as well as among the Turks and Khalaj; i, 88, (Persian translation, 43, very free), he reports that after Mahmuds expedition against India, the Afghans and Khalaj submitted to him; ii, 78 (Pers. Transl, 294): when Ilak Khan took up a menacing attitude Mahmud arrived in Ghazna and summoned the Khalaj Turks, ever on their horses, [6] manly son of swords Equally, during the inroad of Qadir Khan to Tukharistan. Mahmud rushed to Balkh with his Turkish, Indian, Khalaj, Afghan, and Ghazna troops

The fact that the Khalaj were associated in Mahmuds victories may account for their subsequent ambitions, Already under the weak Sultan Masud, they became restive. On 19 Muharram 432/1040, Masud had to send an expedition from Ghazni in order to obtain the submission or punishment of the Khalaj who, during his absence, had committed some transgressions (fisad), Abul Fazal Bayhaqi, ed. Morley, 826, 830 [where is mis-spelt as ]

Najib Bakrans geography Jahan-nama, written (circa AD, 1200-1220) on the eve of the Mongol invasion, contains a particularly interesting paragraph on the changes which the originally Turkish tribe was undergoing: The Khalaj are a tribe of Turks who from the Khallukh limits migrated to Zabulistan. Among the districts of Ghazni there is a steppe where they reside. Then, on account of the heat of the air, their complexion has changed; the tongue too has undergone alterations and become a different language.

In the earliest mention of Juvaynis Jahan-Gusha, i, 132, the Khalaj of Ghazni are curiously associated with Afghans; a levy (hashar) of these two tribes mobilized by the Mongols took part in the punitive expedition to the region of Merv, ii 194-8: after the disruption of the kingdom of Sultan Muhammad Khwarazim Shah, a numberless mass of Khalaj and Turkmans from Khorasan and Transoxiana gathered at Purshavur (Peshawar) under the leadership of Saif al-Din Ighraq (var. *Yighraq) [7] Malik, who according to a gloss was himself a Khalaj. This army defeated the petty king of Ghazna, Radhi al-Mulk, but when Jalaladin Khwarazim Shah arrived in Ghazna, Ighraq came to greet him. After Jalaladin defeated the Mongols at Parvan, the Khalaj, Turkmans, and Ghauris of his army quarrelled with the Khwarazimians over the booty and finally retreated towards the south. Ighraq returned to Peshawar while his rival Nuh-Jandar stayed at *Ningrahar, but Ighraq retraced his steps and killed him. Finally, Mongol detachments reached the spot and destroyed the whole of the 20,000 - 30,000 Khalaj, Turkmans, and Ghauris who had abandoned Jalaladin. [8]

This historical sketch very clearly shows the gradual expansion of the southern branch of the Khalaj from the lower course of the Helmand to the environs of Ghazna and later to the neighborhood of Peshawar; on the other hand, it indicates how the Khalaj were utilized by the lords of the time and how gradually they found their way to power.

India was ever a most welcome field for energetic adventurers, and as early as AD. 1197 Muhammad Bakhtiyar Khalji [9], acting on behalf of the Ghurid Muiz al-Din Muhammad occupied Bihar and AD. 1202, at the head of a small troop of horse, conquered Lakhnauti in Bengal of which he became the governor.

In 689/1290 Jalal al-din Firuz Khalji succeeded the Mamluk kings on the throne of Delhi and his short-lived dynasty lasted till 1320. [10]

Another Khalji dynasty, descended from a brother of Firuz, ruled in Central India (Malwa) AD. 1436-1531. Equally the Lodhi kings of Delhi (AD. 1451-1526) belonged to a Khalji family which was established in Multan already towards AD 1005.

The Khalji in India were considered as Afghans and perhaps in the fifteenth century possessed no knowledge of Turkish but we must remember what Najib Bakran says on the changes undergone by the Khalaj of Afghanistan. In Afghanistan and India the descendants of the Khalaj are called Ghal-zae, i.e. sons of the thief. [11] This later popular etymology and the legend built up round it are certainly artificial. The fact is that the important Ghilzai tribe occupies now the region round Ghazni, [12] where the Khalaj used to live and that historical data all point, to the transformation of the Turkish Khalaj into Afghan Ghilzai. Even the phonetic evolution of the name has nothing astonishing. The ancient Turkish form was Qalaj (or Qalach), and it is well known that Turkish q was heard by the Arabs now as kh and now as gh. [13] Qalaj could have a parallel form *Ghalaj of which it was easv to bring the end in conformity with the usual Afghan terminology of zae, zai (= Persian zada).

Notes:

[1] In the account of the province of Davar on the Hilmand.

[2] After all Masudis vague passage may even not refer to the Khalaj but only to the Kharlukh and the Turkmans (often quoted alongside with the Khalaj).

[3] Probably based on the history of Ibn al-Azhar al-Akhbari, see Barthold, Zur Geschichte der Saffariden, in Oriental Studien Th. Noldek, 1906, pp 173, 186.

[4] Siasat Nama (485/1092), ch. xxvii, p. 96

[5] Gardizi, 56. The text has Turkan-e Sulh but the editor has already suggested the reading *Khallukh. I admit the necessity of the emendation, but, in view of the circumstances, I prefer *Khalaj.

[6] Ahlas al-Zuhr

[7] The alternance of initial i- and yi is frequent; cf. Inal/Yinal

[8] But certainly not at all the Khalaj.

[9] i.e. Khalaji. In Indian pronunciation the middle short vowel of a tri-syllabic word regularly omitted (shafaqat > shafqat), shafaqal > while a mono-syllabic word ending in two consonants becomes bi-sylabic (fahm > faham).

[10] His father had the Turkish title Yughrush, see M. F. Koprulu, Zur Kentniss der altturkischen Titulatur, in Korosi Csoma Archivum, 1938, Erganzungsband, p. 339, who quotes Tarikh-e Farishta, I, 152, 155.

[11] Or with a further reduction of the vowel: Ghilzae, in Persian Ghiljai

[12 See Longworth Dames, Afghanistan and Ghilzai in EI. The author seems not to have realized the weight of the earlier historical evidence and disbelieved the possibility of the transformation Khalaj > Ghilzai, fully admitted by other collaborators of the EI. (Barthold, Sir W. Haig); cf. laso Marquart, op. cit., 253. In fact there is absolutely nothing astonishing in a tribe of nomad habits changing its language. This happened with the Mongols settled among Turks and probably with some Turks living among Kurds. [Sir W. Haig in the Cambridge History of India, III, 90, gives a pertinent reply to Raverty: If the Ghilzay be not Khaljis it is difficult to say what has become of the latter.]

[13] Cf. Tabari, iii, 1416: Ghamish < Turkish Qamish a reed.

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  Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2005 at 19:11

Ag hun Empire-It means White Hunic Empire:

Those guys were not persian, if u know, Agsuvar han, they u have to know Persian-Ehite hinic wars or Eftalit??????????

Eftalit was the first king who seperated his tribe from Late Huns-Early Gokturks, came, and invade lands between Hindy-Kush and Sasanid Empire. For the Byzantium historician Theophanes (the second half of 8th century), Ephtalit was the king who defeated Firuz in 459-484 years Sasanid-Ag hun wars, and there was a moneys  which on these moneys were written  Hephthal-khion-The first word is a Dynasty, The second is a name (nickname).

Beside this, Hindian historians named this empire as Shveta-Huna, and Buzantium historians called Devkhoi-Ounni. In fact, at the end of 5th century, the Ag hun king who fighted with Sasanids, was hold the name Khakan, which means king in all turkish empires, except Ottoman and Later Seljuc.

 

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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 08:31

I remember Ottomans did used also Kagan, when they made a "kanun" they (after collapse of Istanbul) begon with:"Ben Trklerin hakan'i, bizans'in imparator'u, islami halif olarak..." Ben Trklerin hakan'i means me the successor of Turks or the Kagan of Turks.

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  Quote Aryan Khadem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 23:08

I wonder why regardless of archaeological and DNA evidence do people disregard the Term Iranian tribes. As for Afghani's well lets say this Afghanistan was formed in 1893 with the help of the british who were carving up Iran to help stop the Russians getting to India.... There is no such thnig as Afhghani's only Iranians,Persians are just one of the many Iranian tribes and peoples. read my posts on slavs...... This is also backed up by DNA analysis. If you dispute it then don't leave your opinion back it up with something....

Try to show some smarts and think outside you nationalists box please people and look at evidence, if you really disagree then back it up with sources and bibliographys etc

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 10:42
Afghan is another term for Pashtuns I believe, Afghanan can clarify.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 11:18
Originally posted by Aryan Khadem

I wonder why regardless of archaeological and DNA evidence do people disregard the Term Iranian tribes. As for Afghani's well lets say this Afghanistan was formed in 1893 with the help of the british who were carving up Iran to help stop the Russians getting to India.... There is no such thnig as Afhghani's only Iranians,Persians are just one of the many Iranian tribes and peoples. read my posts on slavs...... This is also backed up by DNA analysis. If you dispute it then don't leave your opinion back it up with something....



In the 1720s, an Afghan revolt was the main cause of the fall of Safavid Persia. For some time, I think, Afghans were independent. Obviously what diferentiated them at the time wasn't a particular ethnicity mostly but diference of faith: they were Sunnites and the Safavids, as the majority of Persians or Iranians were Shiite.

Anyhow, you know: Danes, Germans, Dutch and English are all Germanic... but that doesn't mean they are all the same.

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  Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 22:52

I did not understand your point:

There is no Any Nation That its name is IRAN

There are Persians, Kurds, Turks, Lors? and etc. nations which are living together under the flag of Iran state.

Am I wron, and also, The DNA analys, if i am Turkish (And I am oguz ) then my DNA analysis must be same with Turkey turkish, with Turkmens and e.t.c.

But Scientists cant just discuss that "Azerbaijan nation" and "Kazakistan Nation" have the same DNA

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 23:07

You are wrong, Persians/Kurds/Lors/Pashtuns/Baloch/Mazandarani/Gilaki/Talys h/Tat/Tajik/Zaza are part of the Iranic family and they originate from a common Indo-European tribe, many of those groups live in one nation and it is correctly called Iran.

Iran has been referred to as a land for these peoples since antiquity, you can find it mentioned in the ancient texts of the zend avesta and in the inscriptions of the ancient kings. 

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  Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2005 at 19:23

ok, i got

I knew that they were, But I mean today there is no any Iranic Tribe like Kurdish or turkish. I wanna u get my point

I know that some of them were the part of Aryans, and later Iran

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  Quote Rakhsh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 17:10
Please Janissary can you explain what you mean by this, thank you
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  Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 00:01

I mean, i cannot understand what u call Iranic???

There is not a tribe or nation that calls Iran tribe etc.

There is Persian, Kurdish, Lors, Azerb. turks and others that live under Iran flag, I mean the name of the land is Iran

As Azerbaijan and Armenia-Turks and Hayes

did u get my point???

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  Quote Rakhsh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 02:01
No sorry I do not get your point, Since Kurds, Persians, Lors, etc are called part of the Iranian or Iranic Family, Race, Tribe...... Iran is a country do not confuse the two, the country is one, You can be Iranian without being Aryan of from Iranic tribe
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  Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 22:07
Yah, it is true, and u can be American
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  Quote Rakhsh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 01:45
What has america got to do with this topic? I am not american please state what is ment by you can be american?
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  Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 12:32

I know that u got Idea, so I have no another word to tell to u

so, calm down

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 13:36

The meaning of Iranic is the same as Turkic.

Uzbeks, Turkmen, Kyghiz for example are Turkic

Lors, Baluchis, Persians are Iranic

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