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Shkoder = Skudra ?!

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    Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 17:01

Of course we all know that the existance of Albania came into effect after the 1st world war, created from parts of Greece and the kingdom of Serbs. Albania being relativley new as a country is rather historicaly better known as Epi-ras or in later times through the Siva charta marina- 16th centuery or so as "SERVIA  or Serbia where i might add that there was no mention of Albanians upon Servia. This goes to explain were the name Skhoder derives from, the Slav word Skadar. If we take into account that the language of what we today understand to be Albanians  *(Shiqitars) is declared by linguistitions to be largely undeveloped, that it is basicaly made up of localised languages such as Greek, Latin and Serbian we can the take a number of borrowed slav words as evidence.

eg. Serbs will say Kosovo from the word Kos - blackbird while the albanians will re-adapt this word to Kosova from the original Slav name hence the name Skhoder was re-adapted from the Slav Skadar. Just as there cannot be Kosovans meaning that there are only Albanians and Serbs two distinct races and cultures who can not agree on anything how could there be a nation Kosovans that  both belong to as one?

 

Albania to this day has over 3500 Serbian/Slav regional and geographic names.

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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 17:02
This goes to explain were the name Skhoder derives from, the Slav word Skadar


Certainly not... Shkoder had been around way before Slavs took it... Heard of Scutar? It has ben around since BC era... because it was part of your original state(Zeta) does not mean its yours. In fact Albs did not borrow the current name from slavs it came from latin. In latin Sc is pernounced as H, when it went into Alb it was adopted as Shk, strangely. Originally this did not fit into Albanian linguistic rules, however through recent discoveries, we find that it since all those latin names have transfered similarly in Alb, for instance Scupi in alb became Shkupi, scampus=shkamp.

Albania to this day has over 3500 Serbian/Slav regional and geographic names.


nope, you do not take into account that most are Bulgarian, many are leftovers after the Bulgarian empires. Those that are Serb, thank your Dusan for it or the Serb dictators such as Prebulovich.

Greek, Latin and Serbian we can the take a number of borrowed slav words as evidence.


Most lingusists state Albanian is a Daco-Micean language. I myself dont follow linguistics so I cant even explain what that is.

What borrowed slav words? Can you mention some?

Sorry, but Alb shows no origins with Slav or Greek. It shares much closer with Romanian...

Stating Albanians are a new phenomenon is rather humorous, Care to explain Byzantine records? Or the first Alb state known as Arbenon? Albs surely existed then just not in the name Shqiptar(which developed much later), Arbenon were a cut off from the Despotate of Epirus, hence the adoption of the Byzantine eagle. Then many early albanian royalty(such as Muzakaj or Thopia) began identifying themselves as Epirotians due to this and believed they were serving the Despotate.

Also, its interesting you give the idea that Albs are just made up and are just people consisting of Greeks and Slavs... Have you heard of the culture 'vendetta' or blood fued? Well it's common in northern Albania and guess where else? In Montenegro. Well it this s a culture popular in Serbia? Well from what I have heard, no. In fact they see it as barbaric(true!!), however check how heavy it is in Montenegro? Wonder why? Well, lets just say Alb blood runs pretty heavily among slavs in there.

In case of the term "Albanians", then yea, there has never been an "Albanian" people. We have never called ourselves such, it is a latin handed term for mountaneous regions...

Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 21:57
Well, ISK, this is an argument that has been discussed in a totally different topic. Even though I don't agree with all the points made by Rasina, I would like you to present any Byzantine text that mentions the Albanians as a people/race/country prior to the 11th-12th century.

Quote:
"Sorry, but Alb shows no origins with Slav or Greek. It shares much closer with Romanian..."

Honestly that is the #1 fact that makes me skeptical.

The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.

When you add that to the fact that none of your maritime terminology is your own but borrowed from different languages.

Anyway, let's try to focus on the topic (whatever it has turned out to be)
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 02:02
Hey Rasina. As for toponyms, lets view all the Arber or Arb toponyms in ex-yugoslavia....


Serbia and Montenegro

Arban-a        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        42.7397222        20.3697222        1748        19474
Arbana        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        42.2316667        20.7197222        1309        19628
Arbanas        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        42.2866667        20.6980556        1223        19614
Arbanasce        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        43.2736111        21.6377778        1154        11600
Arbanasci        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        43.2736111        21.6377778        1154        11600
Arbanasi        city        Republika Crna Gora        Serbia & Montenegro        42.3655556        19.0361111        567        5126
Arbanaska        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        43.0783333        21.4383333        2424        11641
Arbanaski Do        city        Republika Crna Gora        Serbia & Montenegro        42.4208333        19.0313889        1351        5121
Arbanaka        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        43.0783333        21.4383333        2424        11641
Arbanaki Do        city        Republika Crna Gora        Serbia & Montenegro        42.4208333        19.0313889        1351        5121
Arbane       city   &n bsp;&n bsp;&n bsp;&n bsp; Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        42.7397222        20.3697222        1748        19474
Arbane        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        42.2316667        20.7197222        1309        19628
Arbanes        city        Republika Crna Gora        Serbia & Montenegro        42.0752778        19.3402778        1246        4818
Arbane        city        Republika Crna Gora        Serbia & Montenegro        42.0752778        19.3402778        1246        4818
Arban        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        42.7397222        20.3697222        1748        19474
Arban        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        42.2316667        20.7197222        1309        19628
Arbenesh        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        42.7275        20.4847222        1525        19474
Arbeneshi        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        42.7275        20.4847222        1525        19474
Arbnes        city        Republika Crna Gora        Serbia & Montenegro        42.0752778        19.3402778        1246        4818
Arbnez        city        Republika Crna Gora        Serbia & Montenegro        42.0752778        19.3402778        1246        4818
Arbne        city        Republika Crna Gora        Serbia & Montenegro        42.0752778        19.3402778        1246        4818
Arbne        city        Republika Crna Gora        Serbia & Montenegro        42.0752778        19.3402778        1246        4818
Arbnia        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        42.695        20.3386111        1594        19485
Arbulici        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        43.4188889        20.365        3435        11571
Arbulii        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        43.4188889        20.365        3435        11571
Arbnesh        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        42.7275        20.4847222        1525        19474
Arbneshi        city        Republika Srbija        Serbia & Montenegro        42.7275        20.4847222        1525        19474

Most seem to float around Albania

Croatia


Arbanasi        city       &n bsp;      Croatia& nbsp;     44.1   &nb sp;    15.25    &nbs p;   0        2416
Arbanasi        city       &n bsp;      Croatia& nbsp;     44.1352778&nb sp;     15.5113889    ;     583        2924
Arbanasi        city        Dubrovacko-Neretvanska Zupanija        Croatia        42.5408333        18.3730556        643        5300
Arbanasia        city       &n bsp;      Croatia& nbsp;     44.1352778&nb sp;     15.5113889    ;     583        2924
Arbanija        city       &n bsp;      Croatia& nbsp;     43.5122222&nb sp;     16.2922222    ;     475        5762
Arbe        city       &n bsp;      Croatia& nbsp;     44.7569444&nb sp;     14.7608333    ;     0        4031
Arbutine        city       &n bsp;      Croatia& nbsp;     45.1566667&nb sp;     16.3447222    ;     610        4976
Arbutine Vrpoljske        city       &n bsp;      Croatia& nbsp;     45.1019444&nb sp;     16.3172222    ;     544        4915

Bosnia

Only a couple in Bosnia

Arbanasi        city        Republika Srpska        Bosnia & Herzegovina        43.6847222        19.2133333        1568        7231
Arbanaska        city        Republika Srpska        Bosnia & Herzegovina        42.7711111        18.1572222        807        7343
Arbanaka        city        Republika Srpska        Bosnia & Herzegovina        42.7711111        18.1572222        807        7343
Arbici        city        Federacija Bosne i Hercegovine        Bosnia & Herzegovina        43.7230556        18.3397222        2539        7225
Arbii        city        Federacija Bosne i Hercegovine        Bosnia & Herzegovina        43.7230556        18.3397222        2539        7225


FYROM

Arbanasko        city        Opstina Strumica        Macedonia        42.265        22        3776        9167
Arbanako        city        Opstina Strumica        Macedonia        42.265        22        3776        9167
Arbasanci        city        Opstina Strumica        Macedonia        41.8902778        22.0847222        1663        8841
Arbinovo        city        Opstina Strumica        Macedonia        41.3705556        20.8288889        3175        8915


All are cities.

Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 02:32
damn... i didnt know there was so many... lets strike a deal with Greece... we give them "Northern Epirus" and with their help get all these 
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 03:16
damn... i didnt know there was so many... lets strike a deal with Greece... we give them "Northern Epirus" and with their help get all these


No way. My entire family originated there, Alb members and Greek... That would be like giving away my soul...

As for the toponyms, just what I guessed. there were tons in Montenegro.

Whats funny is, these cant be modern toponyms or Ottoman era ones. We had stopped using the term arberor for ourselves by then. In that era it no longer had a meaning to us. These can only be from earlier...

Interestingly enough. I found these in Bosnia...

Arnauti        city        Federacija Bosne i Hercegovine        Bosnia & Herzegovina        44.7872222        16.405        1699        7099
Arnauti        city        Federacija Bosne i Hercegovine        Bosnia & Herzegovina        44.0394444        17.5080556        2723        7190
Arnauti        city        Federacija Bosne i Hercegovine        Bosnia & Herzegovina        44.6205556        18.5594444        1161        7120
Arnauti        city        Republika Srpska        Bosnia & Herzegovina        44.3905556        19.0611111        974        7404



Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 15:06
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO


No way. My entire family originated there, Alb members and Greek... That would be like giving away my soul...



hehe I know me too... just kidding of course
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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2005 at 03:22
I read in an Turkish ethimology book written by an Armenian, Sevan Nishanyan,, Skudra (known as kodra in Turkish) and Uskudar( a town in Istanbul) derived from the same root: scutari - a kind of Roman troops with shields...
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 07:26
Originally posted by kotumeyil

I read in an Turkish ethimology book written by an Armenian, Sevan Nishanyan,, Skudra (known as kodra in Turkish) and Uskudar( a town in Istanbul) derived from the same root: scutari - a kind of Roman troops with shields...


I think the name of the troops was "scutati",  but I do remember the sheild was called "scutum". Since the Latin name of the city was "Scutari" there very well may be a connection.
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  Quote Lannes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 18:39

Originally posted by Phallanx

I think the name of the troops was "scutati",  but I do remember the sheild was called "scutum". Since the Latin name of the city was "Scutari" there very well may be a connection.

The Byzantine troops?  They were known as 'skutatos', and indeed their name was due to their usage of the skuta shield.  Though most actually came to use the kite-shield.

τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι;
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 20:16
Originally posted by Lannes

The Byzantine troops?  They were known as 'skutatos', and indeed their name was due to their usage of the skuta shield.  Though most actually came to use the kite-shield.


I was thinking of the Roman troops actually, from where the Byzantines probably got the name. The spelling may be wrong but I do remeber reading about them in Polybius or some other text.

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  Quote Lannes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 00:03

Originally posted by Phallanx

I was thinking of the Roman troops actually, from where the Byzantines probably got the name. The spelling may be wrong but I do remeber reading about them in Polybius or some other text.

Hmm, I've never noticed Polybius use the term (or any other Roman Historian)...

There was an Iberian troop called 'Scutarii' by the Romans (only seen the term in modern texts, but if I had to guess, I'd say the modern scholars got it from Polybius).  Sure that's not what you mean?

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 01:08
I am mistaken about Polybious using the exact term.
He defines them as "Hassati" holding a "thureos" which is how the Hellines called this form of shield. But when you look at the translation it always presents "scutum".

"The next in seniority called hastati are ordered to wear a complete panoply. section 2The Roman panoply consists firstly of a shield (scutum),"
(he continues with a full description)
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius /6*.html

Since I can't remember in which text I actually saw it, might be a translation or a modern text as you mention, I did a little google searching for  "roman scutati"


whereas its heavier fighters (scutati) were placed at the centre
www.roman-empire.net/army/tactics.html

SCUTATI A unit of troops bearing Scutum (shields)
www.legionxxiv.org/glossaryS/

all heavily armed (scutati omnes),
penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/ E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Exercitus.html

had its lighter archers at the wings, whereas its heavier fighters (scutati) were placed
209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/966485/posts - 101k



Latin Vulgate
38:5 Persae Aethiopes et Lybies cum eis omnes scutati et galeati

King James Version
38:5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
http://www.hebrewoldtestament.com/B26C038.htm


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  Quote Lannes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 01:26

Originally posted by Phallanx

whereas its heavier fighters (scutati) were placed at the centre
www.roman-empire.net/army/tactics.html

SCUTATI A unit of troops bearing Scutum (shields)
www.legionxxiv.org/glossaryS/

all heavily armed (scutati omnes),
penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/ E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Exercitus.html

had its lighter archers at the wings, whereas its heavier fighters (scutati) were placed
209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/966485/posts - 101k

The first is describing Byzantine Tactics, and I suspect the last one is as well  (I'm not sure how to access that, so I can only speculate for now).  The second link appears to just be a list of Latin terms (in other words, not necessarily terms the Romans used), and I can't find the quote you cited from Thayer's site, maybe you could copy-and-paste the text around the quote (to give me a better idea of what he's saying)?

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 06:37
It seems as if the first and last link are exactly the same just presented by different sites and both describe Byzantine tactics as you mention. Didn't really look into them, I just copied the abstract seen right after the search.

The other quote is from the Profet Ezekiel's book (dated 593 and 565 BC) 38:5 found here:
 http://www.hebrewoldtestament.com/B26C038.htm



The quote of Polybius is from book 6.23.

22 The youngest soldiers or velites are ordered to carry a sword, javelins, and a target (parma). section 2The target is strongly made and sufficiently large to afford protection, being circular and measuring A unit conversionthree feet in diameter. section 3They also wear a plain helmet, and sometimes cover it with a wolf's skin or something similar both to protect and to act as a distinguishing mark by which their officers can recognize them and judge if they fight pluckily or not. section 4The wooden shaft of the javelin measures about two cubits in length and is about a finger's breadth in thickness; its head is a span long hammered out to such a fine edge that it is necessarily bent by the first impact, and the enemy is unable to return it. If this were not so, the missile would be available for both sides.

23 The next in seniority called hastati are ordered to wear a complete panoply. section 2The Roman panoply consists firstly of a shield (scutum), the convex surface of which measures A unit conversiontwo and a half feet in width and four feet in length, the thickness at the rim being A unit conversiona palm's breadth. section 3It is made of two planks glued together, the outer surface being then covered first with canvas and then with calf-skin. section 4Its upper and lower rims are strengthened by an iron edging which protects it from descending blows and from injury when rested on the ground. It also has an iron boss (umbo) fixed to it which turns aside the most formidable blows of stones, pikes, and heavy missiles in general. section 6Besides the shield they also carry a sword, hanging on the right thigh and called a Spanish sword. section 7This is excellent for thrusting, and both of its edges cut effectually, as the blade is very strong and firm. section 8In addition they have two pila, a brass helmet, and greaves. section 9The pila are of two sorts stout and fine. Of the stout ones some are round and A unit conversiona palm's length in diameter and others are a palm square. Fine pila, which they carry in addition to the stout ones, are like moderate-sized hunting-spears, section 10the length of the haft in all cases being about three cubits. Each is fitted with a barbed iron head of the same length as the haft. section 11This they attach so securely to the haft, carrying the attachment halfway up the latter and fixing it with numerous rivets, that in action the iron will break sooner than become detached, although its thickness at the bottom where it comes in contact with the wood is a finger's breadth and a half; such great care do they take about attaching it firmly. Finally they wear as an ornament a circle of feathers with three upright purple or black feathers A unit conversionabout a cubit in height, the addition of which on the head surmounting their other arms is to make every man look twice his real height, and to give him a fine appearance, such as will strike terror into the enemy. section 14The common soldiers wear in addition a breastplate of brass a span square, which they place in front of the heart and call the heart-protector (pectorale), this completing their accoutrements; but those who are rated above ten thousand drachmas wear instead of this a coat of chain-mail (lorica). The principes and triarii are armed in the same manner except that instead of the pila the triarii carry long spears (hastae).


After a long search in my archive, I began to believe that I might have actually mixed 'Hassati' with 'scutati' but then after going into Perseus.Tufts, I came up with this:

scūtātus , a, um, adj. [id.] .
    II. Subst.
      B. = scutarius, II. 2.; Inscr. Orell. 3448 (belonging to A. D. 256).

The problem is that I just can't remember where I saw it.


Edited by Phallanx
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 07:09
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Shkoder, also called SHKODRA, Latin SCODRA, Italian SCUTARI, town, northwestern Albania. It lies at the southeast end of Lake Scutari, at a point where the Buen (Serbo-Croatian: Bojana) River, one of Albania's two navigable streams, flows out of the lake toward the Adriatic Sea. Situated at the edge of a wide plain surrounded by high mountains, the city is overlooked on the west by the peak of Tarabosh. Shkoder is dominated on the south by the now-isolated citadel of Rozafat, past which the Kiri River flows into the Buen. Since 1900 the town has spread northeastward, away from its bazaar, which was once important because of its location at the convergence of trade routes from the Danube River and the Aegean Sea.

Is it the same Skudra in the ancient Persian inscriptions?

 

In fact Scodrinon = Scodra has nothing to do with Scudra!  Kodr/Kodrin in albanian means hill! The castle of Rozafa is builted in hill! That's why the city took that name! There have been other places in Illyria with this name!

And this is another proof of Illyrian - Albanian continuity!

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 07:16

This is an ancient coin that shows a Liburnian ship (the one that was later adopted by the Romans)

 

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