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Topic: Shkoder = Skudra ?! Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 17:01 |
Of course we all know that the existance of Albania came into effect after the 1st world war, created from parts of Greece and the kingdom of Serbs. Albania being relativley new as a country is rather historicaly better known as Epi-ras or in later times through the Siva charta marina- 16th centuery or so as "SERVIA or Serbia where i might add that there was no mention of Albanians upon Servia. This goes to explain were the name Skhoder derives from, the Slav word Skadar. If we take into account that the language of what we today understand to be Albanians *(Shiqitars) is declared by linguistitions to be largely undeveloped, that it is basicaly made up of localised languages such as Greek, Latin and Serbian we can the take a number of borrowed slav words as evidence.
eg. Serbs will say Kosovo from the word Kos - blackbird while the albanians will re-adapt this word to Kosova from the original Slav name hence the name Skhoder was re-adapted from the Slav Skadar. Just as there cannot be Kosovans meaning that there are only Albanians and Serbs two distinct races and cultures who can not agree on anything how could there be a nation Kosovans that both belong to as one?
Albania to this day has over 3500 Serbian/Slav regional and geographic names.
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TheodoreFelix
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Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 17:02 |
This goes to explain were the name Skhoder derives from, the Slav word Skadar |
Certainly not... Shkoder had been around way before Slavs took it... Heard of Scutar? It has ben around since BC era... because it was part of your original state(Zeta) does not mean its yours. In fact Albs did not borrow the current name from slavs it came from latin. In latin Sc is pernounced as H, when it went into Alb it was adopted as Shk, strangely. Originally this did not fit into Albanian linguistic rules, however through recent discoveries, we find that it since all those latin names have transfered similarly in Alb, for instance Scupi in alb became Shkupi, scampus=shkamp.
Albania to this day has over 3500 Serbian/Slav regional and geographic names.
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nope, you do not take into account that most are Bulgarian, many are leftovers after the Bulgarian empires. Those that are Serb, thank your Dusan for it or the Serb dictators such as Prebulovich.
Greek, Latin and Serbian we can the take a number of borrowed slav words as evidence. |
Most lingusists state Albanian is a Daco-Micean language. I myself dont follow linguistics so I cant even explain what that is.
What borrowed slav words? Can you mention some?
Sorry, but Alb shows no origins with Slav or Greek. It shares much closer with Romanian...
Stating Albanians are a new phenomenon is rather humorous, Care to explain Byzantine records? Or the first Alb state known as Arbenon? Albs surely existed then just not in the name Shqiptar(which developed much later), Arbenon were a cut off from the Despotate of Epirus, hence the adoption of the Byzantine eagle. Then many early albanian royalty(such as Muzakaj or Thopia) began identifying themselves as Epirotians due to this and believed they were serving the Despotate.
Also, its interesting you give the idea that Albs are just made up and are just people consisting of Greeks and Slavs... Have you heard of the culture 'vendetta' or blood fued? Well it's common in northern Albania and guess where else? In Montenegro. Well it this s a culture popular in Serbia? Well from what I have heard, no. In fact they see it as barbaric(true!!), however check how heavy it is in Montenegro? Wonder why? Well, lets just say Alb blood runs pretty heavily among slavs in there.
In case of the term "Albanians", then yea, there has never been an "Albanian" people. We have never called ourselves such, it is a latin handed term for mountaneous regions...
Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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Phallanx
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Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 21:57 |
Well, ISK, this is an argument that has been discussed in a totally
different topic. Even though I don't agree with all the points made by
Rasina, I would like you to present any Byzantine text that mentions
the Albanians as a people/race/country prior to the 11th-12th century.
Quote:
"Sorry, but Alb shows no origins with Slav or Greek. It shares much closer with Romanian..."
Honestly that is the #1 fact that makes me skeptical.
The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form
of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western
Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not
take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
When you add that to the fact that none of your maritime terminology is your own but borrowed from different languages.
Anyway, let's try to focus on the topic (whatever it has turned out to be)
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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TheodoreFelix
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Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 02:02 |
Hey Rasina. As for toponyms, lets view all the Arber or Arb toponyms in ex-yugoslavia....
Serbia and Montenegro
Arban-a city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 42.7397222 20.3697222 1748 19474
Arbana city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 42.2316667 20.7197222 1309 19628
Arbanas city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 42.2866667 20.6980556 1223 19614
Arbanasce city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 43.2736111 21.6377778 1154 11600
Arbanasci city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 43.2736111 21.6377778 1154 11600
Arbanasi city Republika Crna Gora Serbia & Montenegro 42.3655556 19.0361111 567 5126
Arbanaska city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 43.0783333 21.4383333 2424 11641
Arbanaski Do city Republika Crna Gora Serbia & Montenegro 42.4208333 19.0313889 1351 5121
Arbanaka city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 43.0783333 21.4383333 2424 11641
Arbanaki Do city Republika Crna Gora Serbia & Montenegro 42.4208333 19.0313889 1351 5121
Arbane city &n bsp;&n bsp;&n bsp;&n bsp; Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 42.7397222 20.3697222 1748 19474
Arbane city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 42.2316667 20.7197222 1309 19628
Arbanes city Republika Crna Gora Serbia & Montenegro 42.0752778 19.3402778 1246 4818
Arbane city Republika Crna Gora Serbia & Montenegro 42.0752778 19.3402778 1246 4818
Arban city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 42.7397222 20.3697222 1748 19474
Arban city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 42.2316667 20.7197222 1309 19628
Arbenesh city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 42.7275 20.4847222 1525 19474
Arbeneshi city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 42.7275 20.4847222 1525 19474
Arbnes city Republika Crna Gora Serbia & Montenegro 42.0752778 19.3402778 1246 4818
Arbnez city Republika Crna Gora Serbia & Montenegro 42.0752778 19.3402778 1246 4818
Arbne city Republika Crna Gora Serbia & Montenegro 42.0752778 19.3402778 1246 4818
Arbne city Republika Crna Gora Serbia & Montenegro 42.0752778 19.3402778 1246 4818
Arbnia city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 42.695 20.3386111 1594 19485
Arbulici city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 43.4188889 20.365 3435 11571
Arbulii city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 43.4188889 20.365 3435 11571
Arbnesh city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 42.7275 20.4847222 1525 19474
Arbneshi city Republika Srbija Serbia & Montenegro 42.7275 20.4847222 1525 19474
Most seem to float around Albania
Croatia
Arbanasi city &n bsp; Croatia& nbsp; 44.1 &nb sp; 15.25 &nbs p; 0 2416
Arbanasi city &n bsp; Croatia& nbsp; 44.1352778&nb sp; 15.5113889   ; 583 2924
Arbanasi city Dubrovacko-Neretvanska Zupanija Croatia 42.5408333 18.3730556 643 5300
Arbanasia city &n bsp; Croatia& nbsp; 44.1352778&nb sp; 15.5113889   ; 583 2924
Arbanija city &n bsp; Croatia& nbsp; 43.5122222&nb sp; 16.2922222   ; 475 5762
Arbe city &n bsp; Croatia& nbsp; 44.7569444&nb sp; 14.7608333   ; 0 4031
Arbutine city &n bsp; Croatia& nbsp; 45.1566667&nb sp; 16.3447222   ; 610 4976
Arbutine Vrpoljske city &n bsp; Croatia& nbsp; 45.1019444&nb sp; 16.3172222   ; 544 4915
Bosnia
Only a couple in Bosnia
Arbanasi city Republika Srpska Bosnia & Herzegovina 43.6847222 19.2133333 1568 7231
Arbanaska city Republika Srpska Bosnia & Herzegovina 42.7711111 18.1572222 807 7343
Arbanaka city Republika Srpska Bosnia & Herzegovina 42.7711111 18.1572222 807 7343
Arbici city Federacija Bosne i Hercegovine Bosnia & Herzegovina 43.7230556 18.3397222 2539 7225
Arbii city Federacija Bosne i Hercegovine Bosnia & Herzegovina 43.7230556 18.3397222 2539 7225
FYROM
Arbanasko city Opstina Strumica Macedonia 42.265 22 3776 9167
Arbanako city Opstina Strumica Macedonia 42.265 22 3776 9167
Arbasanci city Opstina Strumica Macedonia 41.8902778 22.0847222 1663 8841
Arbinovo city Opstina Strumica Macedonia 41.3705556 20.8288889 3175 8915
All are cities.
Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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vulkan02
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Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 02:32 |
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Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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TheodoreFelix
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Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 03:16 |
damn... i didnt know there was so many... lets strike a deal with Greece... we give them "Northern Epirus" and with their help get all these |
No way. My entire family originated there, Alb members and Greek... That would be like giving away my soul...
As for the toponyms, just what I guessed. there were tons in Montenegro.
Whats funny is, these cant be modern toponyms or Ottoman era ones. We had stopped using the term arberor for ourselves by then. In that era it no longer had a meaning to us. These can only be from earlier...
Interestingly enough. I found these in Bosnia...
Arnauti city Federacija Bosne i Hercegovine Bosnia & Herzegovina 44.7872222 16.405 1699 7099
Arnauti city Federacija Bosne i Hercegovine Bosnia & Herzegovina 44.0394444 17.5080556 2723 7190
Arnauti city Federacija Bosne i Hercegovine Bosnia & Herzegovina 44.6205556 18.5594444 1161 7120
Arnauti city Republika Srpska Bosnia & Herzegovina 44.3905556 19.0611111 974 7404
Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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vulkan02
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Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 15:06 |
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO
No way. My entire family originated there, Alb members and Greek... That would be like giving away my soul...
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hehe I know me too... just kidding of course
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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kotumeyil
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Posted: 20-Jul-2005 at 03:22 |
I read in an Turkish ethimology book written by an Armenian, Sevan Nishanyan,, Skudra (known as kodra in Turkish) and Uskudar( a town in Istanbul) derived from the same root: scutari - a kind of Roman troops with shields...
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Phallanx
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Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 07:26 |
Originally posted by kotumeyil
I read in an Turkish ethimology book written by
an Armenian, Sevan Nishanyan,, Skudra (known as kodra in Turkish) and
Uskudar( a town in Istanbul) derived from the same root: scutari - a
kind of Roman troops with shields... |
I think the name of the troops was "scutati", but I do remember
the sheild was called "scutum". Since the Latin name of the city was
"Scutari" there very well may be a connection.
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Lannes
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Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 18:39 |
Originally posted by Phallanx
I think the name of the troops was "scutati", but I do remember the sheild was called "scutum". Since the Latin name of the city was "Scutari" there very well may be a connection.
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The Byzantine troops? They were known as 'skutatos', and indeed their name was due to their usage of the skuta shield. Though most actually came to use the kite-shield.
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τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι;
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Phallanx
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Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 20:16 |
Originally posted by Lannes
The Byzantine troops? They were known as
'skutatos', and indeed their name was due to their usage of the skuta
shield. Though most actually came to use the kite-shield. |
I was thinking of the Roman troops actually, from where the Byzantines
probably got the name. The spelling may be wrong but I do remeber
reading about them in Polybius or some other text.
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Lannes
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Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 00:03 |
Originally posted by Phallanx
I was thinking of the Roman troops actually, from where the Byzantines probably got the name. The spelling may be wrong but I do remeber reading about them in Polybius or some other text. |
Hmm, I've never noticed Polybius use the term (or any other Roman Historian)...
There was an Iberian troop called 'Scutarii' by the Romans (only seen the term in modern texts, but if I had to guess, I'd say the modern scholars got it from Polybius). Sure that's not what you mean?
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τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι;
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Phallanx
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Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 01:08 |
I am mistaken about Polybious using the exact term.
He defines them as "Hassati" holding a "thureos" which is how the
Hellines called this form of shield. But when you look at the
translation it always presents "scutum".
"The next in seniority called hastati are ordered to wear a complete panoply. The Roman panoply consists firstly of a shield ( scutum),"
(he continues with a full description)
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius /6*.html
Since I can't remember in which text I actually saw it, might be a
translation or a modern text as you mention, I did a little google
searching for "roman scutati"
whereas its heavier fighters (scutati) were placed at the centre
www.roman-empire.net/army/tactics.html
SCUTATI A unit of troops bearing Scutum (shields)
www.legionxxiv.org/glossaryS/
all heavily armed (scutati omnes),
penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/ E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Exercitus.html
had its lighter archers at the wings, whereas its heavier fighters (scutati) were placed
209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/966485/posts - 101k
Latin Vulgate
38:5 Persae Aethiopes et Lybies cum eis omnes scutati et galeati
King James Version
38:5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
http://www.hebrewoldtestament.com/B26C038.htm
Edited by Phallanx
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Lannes
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Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 01:26 |
Originally posted by Phallanx
whereas its heavier fighters (scutati) were placed at the centre www.roman-empire.net/army/tactics.html
SCUTATI A unit of troops bearing Scutum (shields) www.legionxxiv.org/glossaryS/
all heavily armed (scutati omnes), penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/ E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Exercitus.html
had its lighter archers at the wings, whereas its heavier fighters (scutati) were placed 209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/966485/posts - 101k |
The first is describing Byzantine Tactics, and I suspect the last one is as well (I'm not sure how to access that, so I can only speculate for now). The second link appears to just be a list of Latin terms (in other words, not necessarily terms the Romans used), and I can't find the quote you cited from Thayer's site, maybe you could copy-and-paste the text around the quote (to give me a better idea of what he's saying)?
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τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι;
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Phallanx
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Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 06:37 |
It seems as if the first and last link are exactly the same just
presented by different sites and both describe Byzantine tactics as you
mention. Didn't really look into them, I just copied the abstract seen
right after the search.
The other quote is from the Profet Ezekiel's book (dated 593 and 565 BC) 38:5 found here:
http://www.hebrewoldtestament.com/B26C038.htm
The quote of Polybius is from book 6.23.
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The youngest soldiers or velites are ordered to carry a sword, javelins, and a target (parma). The target is strongly made and sufficiently large to afford protection, being circular and measuring three feet in diameter. They
also wear a plain helmet, and sometimes cover it with a wolf's skin or
something similar both to protect and to act as a distinguishing
mark by which their officers can recognize them and judge if they fight pluckily or not. The
wooden shaft of the javelin measures about two cubits in length and is
about a finger's breadth in thickness; its head is a span long hammered
out to such a fine edge that it is necessarily bent by the first
impact, and the enemy is unable to return it. If this were not so, the
missile would be available for both sides.
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The next in seniority called hastati are ordered to wear a complete panoply. The Roman panoply consists firstly of a shield (scutum), the convex surface of which measures two and a half feet in width and four feet in length, the thickness at the rim being a palm's breadth. It is made of two planks glued together, the outer surface being then covered first with canvas and then with calf-skin. Its
upper and lower rims are strengthened by an iron edging which protects
it from descending blows and from injury when rested on the ground. It
also has an iron boss (umbo) fixed to it which turns aside the most formidable blows of stones, pikes, and heavy missiles in general. Besides the shield they also carry a sword, hanging on the right thigh and called a Spanish sword. This is excellent for thrusting, and both of its edges cut effectually, as the blade is very strong and firm. In addition they have two pila, a brass helmet, and greaves. The pila are of two sorts stout and fine. Of the stout ones some
are round and a palm's length in diameter and others are a palm square. Fine pila, which they carry in addition to the stout ones, are like moderate-sized hunting-spears, the
length of the haft in all cases being about three cubits. Each is
fitted with a barbed iron head of the same length as the haft. This
they attach so securely to the haft, carrying the attachment halfway up
the latter and fixing it with numerous rivets, that in action the iron
will break sooner than become detached, although its thickness at the
bottom where it comes in contact with the wood is a finger's breadth
and a half; such great care do they take about attaching it firmly.
Finally they wear as an ornament a circle of feathers with three
upright purple or black feathers about
a cubit in height, the addition of which on the head surmounting their
other arms is to make every man look twice his real height, and to give
him a fine appearance, such as will strike terror into the enemy. The
common soldiers wear in addition a breastplate of brass a span square,
which they place in front of the heart and call the heart-protector (pectorale),
this completing their accoutrements; but those who are rated above ten
thousand drachmas wear instead of this a coat of chain-mail (lorica). The principes and triarii are armed in the same manner except that instead of the pila the triarii carry long spears (hastae).
After a long search in my archive, I began to believe that I might have actually mixed
'Hassati' with 'scutati' but then after going into Perseus.Tufts, I
came up with this:
scūtātus , a, um, adj. [id.] .
B. = scutarius, II. 2.; Inscr. Orell. 3448 (belonging to A. D. 256).
The problem is that I just can't remember where I saw it.
Edited by Phallanx
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 07:09 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Shkoder, also called SHKODRA, Latin SCODRA, Italian SCUTARI, town, northwestern Albania. It lies at the southeast end of Lake Scutari, at a point where the Buen (Serbo-Croatian: Bojana) River, one of Albania's two navigable streams, flows out of the lake toward the Adriatic Sea. Situated at the edge of a wide plain surrounded by high mountains, the city is overlooked on the west by the peak of Tarabosh. Shkoder is dominated on the south by the now-isolated citadel of Rozafat, past which the Kiri River flows into the Buen. Since 1900 the town has spread northeastward, away from its bazaar, which was once important because of its location at the convergence of trade routes from the Danube River and the Aegean Sea.
Is it the same Skudra in the ancient Persian inscriptions?
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In fact Scodrinon = Scodra has nothing to do with Scudra! Kodr/Kodrin in albanian means hill! The castle of Rozafa is builted in hill! That's why the city took that name! There have been other places in Illyria with this name!
And this is another proof of Illyrian - Albanian continuity!
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Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 07:16 |
This is an ancient coin that shows a Liburnian ship (the one that was later adopted by the Romans)
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