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Countries contributions to European civilisation
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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Countries contributions to European civilisation
    Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 15:20

As far as i see, it looks like this:

*****ancient Greeks wherever they were, Italy

****  Germany, France, England, Spain, Netherlands

***    Austria, Russia, Poland, Bohemia (Czech), Sweden, Hungary,  Denmark, Turkey, Scotland, Portugal

the rest

** and *

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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 15:28
Originally posted by Cywr

Ah, so philosophy, theology, maybe the odd reformation or two?
Can you rephrase it please?
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
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Posts: 804 		  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 15:31
It looks like greeks will never let people forget that they own their civilization to greeks.
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 15:32
Why you say that????
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 15:42
I suggest you do not do any stupid generalizations again.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Posts: 4361 		  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 15:42
Two points.

Firstly you have only listed modern states which in this form in most instances only exist from the 19th century or later, when the concept of National States developed. Even if we presume that it would be possible to rank various "contributions" to "European Civilisation", you would have to be far more precise and recognise historical states, cultures or nations that don't exist anymore in the form they did ,when when they "contributed" to "European Civilisation".

Secondly, the whole premise of this question is based on the assumption that those "contributions" developed isolated in one area, independent from any outside influence, which of course is not right.
Renaissance, or Merkantilism, or the Reformation, or the Enlightenment, or the Industrial revolution, or Socialism etc. developed simultaniously in various regions of Europe, and especially through the exchange of ideas between those regions, or indeed any regions outside of Europe.

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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 15:44

Good points.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Posts: 6003 		  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 15:44
Originally posted by Spartakus

Originally posted by Cywr

Ah, so philosophy, theology, maybe the odd reformation or two?
Can you rephrase it please?


Hmm, its fairly straight foreward as it is i think.
You talked about a Spiritual comparison, which tends to cover the area of certain philosphy and theology and the like.


I'd boost Portugal up a notch, not only were they the first serious European power to make widespread use of the Sun as a means of determining latitude (as opposed to previously when stars were used) which gave a boost to navigation, the opened direct sea routes to Asia for most of Europe, something that would hurt the Ottomans economicly somewhat as well as other mediteranean powers, and introduced lots of new foodstuffs to Europe (as well as Asia, Africa and the Americas).
Arrrgh!!"
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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 15:46

Originally posted by Komnenos

Two points.

Firstly you have only listed modern states which in this form in most instances only exist from the 19th century or later, when the concept of National States developed. Even if we presume that it would be possible to rank various "contributions" to "European Civilisation", you would have to be far more precise and recognise historical states, cultures or nations that don't exist anymore in the form they did ,when when they "contributed" to "Eropean Civilisation".

Secondly, the whole premise of this question is based on the assumption that those "contributions" developed isolated in one area, independent from any outside influence, which of course is not right.
Renaissance, or Merkantilism, or the Reformation, or the Enlightenment, or the Industrial revolution, or Socialism etc. developed simultaniously in various regions of Europe, and especially through the exchange of ideas between those regions, or indeed any regions outside of Europe.

I agree, altough some regions had bigger influence than other.
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 15:46
Originally posted by Spartakus

There is a small difference in the your meaning of my words.I said you cannot compare spirit influence with technology influence,it more proper to compare with the German,French,English SPIRITUAL influence.


Whoever said this was about "spiritual" influence, whatever that means? And if so I'd still give more to the French and English for spawning the philosophers that founded the new modern thinkings of equality and liberty than to the ancient Greeks. The modern form of democracy mostly spread by the British parliamentarism derives from old Germanic social culture and the Englightenment, not to from Greece. Greece may have had huge incluence in ancient science and philosophy, but to say they have the major part of the forming of the modern West/Europe is ludicrous.
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 15:48

Sry,but some times i cannot catch a thing in English.....Well,theology and philosophy have their differences but aren't they both focusing in human spirit and soul?
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 15:49


Turkey??? show some good sources and I will be open. I know the Turks absorbed a lot from the Byaantine culture and I do not doubt they had some cultural influences.

They mean Ottoman Empire by Turkey, I think.

And Ottoman Empire contributed too much to European civilization. Yes, they were highly influenced with the Byzanthine civilization, but they influenced them more then they were influenced by them...


 
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Posts: 6003 		  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 15:49
theology and philosophy have their differences but aren't they both focusing in human spirit and soul?


Yes, thats preciecly my point, you will find a great many Philosphers and Theologicans (?) from most countries who touch on this area, as well as major shifts in religious outlook (which occured after the reformation).
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 15:50
Stybiorn,cannot you get it?I am not saying that Hellens are superior,see my first reply,but you compared 2 things which in my opinion is wrong.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Posts: 6003 		  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 16:01
And another 'what Komnenos said' here. Much of the contributions people would list were not contributions of countries/states, but of individuals who are themselves subject to a multitude of influences.
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Posts: 658 		  Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 16:09

Originally posted by Cywr



I'd boost Portugal up a notch, not only were they the first serious European power to make widespread use of the Sun as a means of determining latitude (as opposed to previously when stars were used) which gave a boost to navigation, the opened direct sea routes to Asia for most of Europe, something that would hurt the Ottomans economicly somewhat as well as other mediteranean powers, and introduced lots of new foodstuffs to Europe (as well as Asia, Africa and the Americas).

Don't forget the portuguese also invented globalization .
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Posts: 4361 		  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 16:29
Originally posted by Cywr

And another 'what Komnenos said' here. Much of the contributions people
would list were not contributions of countries/states, but of
individuals who are themselves subject to a multitude of influences.



Historically seen, the synthesis of geopolitical hegemonies has been a permanent factor in Europe since antiquity.
Almost all events of this historical period can be explained by the polarization of dialectic indicators.
Considering the question however, we shouldnt disregard the anachronism of plutocratic tendencies, as this factor contributed decisively to the urbanisation of autarkic subcultures.

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http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3967&PN= 1
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Posts: 6003 		  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 16:35
Arrrgh!!"
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 17:19
Originally posted by Spartakus

Stybiorn,cannot you get it?I am not saying that Hellens are superior,see my first reply,but you compared 2 things which in my opinion is wrong.

You're the one who don't get it. I responded to a post claiming England, France and Germany's high influence "a joke", thus claiming that Greece somehow had larger influence than these and asked him to elaborate. No one was comparing the sort of influence, just influence in general.
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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 17:50

Originally posted by Styrbiorn


Whoever said this was about "spiritual" influence, whatever that means? And if so I'd still give more to the French and English for spawning the philosophers that founded the new modern thinkings of equality and liberty than to the ancient Greeks. The modern form of democracy mostly spread by the British parliamentarism derives from old Germanic social culture and the Englightenment, not to from Greece. Greece may have had huge incluence in ancient science and philosophy, but to say they have the major part of the forming of the modern West/Europe is ludicrous.

Doh, dont forget about us Poles. We had a lot to say in philosophy about equality,republic and liberty long before philosophers in western europe started to think about it. Take for example Modrevius who was one of the first european philosophers writing about liberty and equality and in the 16th century was well known in whole europe. His book: "De Republica Emendanda" was a first real political work which fully described how the republican system should work. And this first work about republic had nothing to do with british parliamentarism.

Andrzej Frycz Modrzewski

Andrzej Frycz Modrzewski
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Andrzej Frycz Modrzewski

Andrzej Frycz Modrzewski (Andreus Fricius Modrevius) (ca. 1503-1572) was a Polish Renaissance scholar, humanist and theologian.

He was of the lower gentry and held a heritable title as the village head of Wolbrz. After graduating from the Jagiellonian University he was ordained as a vicar and served under archbishop Jan aski (the Elder), and later under the bishop of Poznan, Jan Latalski. From 1530 he was connected to the court of Jan aski the Younger, the Polish Primate and nephew of the elder Laski. Having lived for a time in Germany, he met Martin Luther and other early Protestant reformers, and also took care of the library of Erasmus.

He returned to Poland in 1541, and became an official at the court of Sigmundus Augustus in 1547. Since 1553 he retired to his native Wolbrz, but since he was leaning strongly towards the reformist (especially Calvinian and Arian) circles he was in danger of being accused of heresy and stripped of his ecclesiastical titles and offices. The king, however, issued a letter of protection for him.

His works: Lascius, Or On The Penalty For Manslaughter (1543, in Latin); The Discourse Of A Truthful Peripatethic (1545); On The Improvement Of The Commonwealth (1554, in Latin, first printed in Basel); Silve Quator (1590, posthumously).

He criticized the ban on land-owning by non-nobles, was in favour of sending a mixed (ecclesiatical and secular) delegation to the Tridentine Council, postulated equality of all citizens before law, a strong central monarchy, secularizing education and improving the lot of the peasant class.

He was a supporter of irenism and the democratical and ecumenical element in the Church.



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