Greek Ancestry of Northern Pakistani Ethnic Groups?

Hi again. Thanks for the replies. The above haplomap shows the Pakistani Kalash group which was talked about above has a very similar haplogroup distribution as the Yugoslavian (former Macedonian) one. HG 28 seems to have found it's way into Kalash though, which probably isnt surprising, but for the three major haplogroups there's a good correlation. Perhaps there's some truth in them being direct descendants of the Macedonians after all.

There's very little HG9 in Pakistani Pathan and Kalash, which I'm assuming came from Arab migrations to the region. They probably came from the South, so Sindhis etc would have a high amount, though Kashmiris in the North have a high amount too.

Pakistani Kashmiri has no HG2, which I find odd (light blue). If the Macedonians went there there should be some. But I guess Alexander the Greats Empire didnt extend much past the Indus as shown.

http://library.thinkquest.org/10805/alexmap.html 

http://www.classbrain.com/art_cr/publish/pakistan_color_map. shtml 

Though if the Scythians migrated to the Kashmiri region to add to Haplogroup 3, they would have added some HG2 (blue) as well as HG3.  

I'm not sure what you mean by lax reference, or by Hg1 and Hg2 not having a specific lineage, i'll look it up later. What I'm thinking is this. It's very simplistic I know, very likely not the whole picture, but just something I thought up just now. Hg3 mutation originated somewhere around the Eurasian Steppes, Eastern Europe perhaps Slovakia, Poland or even Czech or Ukraine. I think this is the currently held view, the site of the Kurgan culture. Migrations from here began around 3000 BC.

Take the first instant of Alexander the Greats Army entering Pakistan and settling in the area. He marched as far East as Punjab, Eastern Pakistan. From what I know he didnt go into India, but the Greco Bactrian kingdom later expanded into some Northern areas of India. This would place, perhaps a fair amount of HG2 into the population (assuming the Yugo haplogroupings didnt change much over the years: if anyone knows the recent history of invasions into that area, that might help). It is believed by some that the Kalash tribe are direct descendants of Alexander the Great and their haplogroup charting is very similar to the Macedonian one in terms of the major three percentages. The rest of the Pakistani populations we know mixed up in the furture (from 400 BC to present). But the Kalash are a good example of Macedonian settlement in the region, so this was probably a major migration. The Scythians we know invaded around 200 or 400 years later, so they would have brought with them Haplogroup 3. This might be reflected in the increased HG 3 found in Pakistani Pathan but not in Kalash who claim to be a pure line of Alexander the Great (Macedonian). There was also a Hun invasion after that, though it looks as though only Pakistani Hazaras carry the genetic haplotgroup C of Mongols, they also claim to be direct descendants of Genghis Khan.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v72n3/0 24530/024530.text.html?erFrom=-9123523380586873369Guest  

The Scythians entered Pakistan around 100 AD, the Greeks around 400 BC. Obviously someone brought with them a large amount of Haplogroup 3 into the population. The following gives some suggested origins of Pathans and other Pakistani groups, also suggesting no Jewish origin for the Pathans/Kalash, though they also suggest no Greek origin.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=44 7589 

However, they also say this is based on haplotype analysis of the Greek population and Alexander was Macedonian? Anyway, the Maced. entered Pakistan in about 400 BC or somewhere there, and this was later followed by the Scythians, so clearly they influenced the genetic make up of Pathans. However, the Kalash werent very much affected if this is true.

"It is reasonably certain that at the beginning of the second millennium BCE, the speakers of the Proto-Indo-Iranian language moved from Ukraine to the southeast. From an archaeological point of view, their migration is attested in the change from the Yamnaya culture into the Andronovo culture.

They invaded the country that was later called Afghanistan, where they separated in an Iranian and an Indian branch. The first group settled in Aria, a name that lives on in our word 'Iran', where they settled after 1000 BCE; the second group reached the Punjab c.1500 BCE.

http://www.livius.org/sao-sd/scythians/scythians.html 

I'm speculating the Pashtuns are from the Iranian division of the Scythians mixed with the Greeks before them, or from the original migration down to the region (the "third" group). The Parthian Empire were probably one of these two Scythian groups which ruled over Pakistan for a period of time.

The Scythians were a proto-Turkic people residing in central Asia, also known as the Sakas, They contributed a large amount to the Slavic genepool of eastern Europe and pakistan/afghan and N/india. Vast hordes of these "barbarians" poured into the indus valley in the 1st cent. Ad, swamping the previous inhabitants in terms of numbers. Indeed, Pakistan and areas like Rajestan/gujerat are considered the most Scythian areas in the world. This may be seen in the genetic map above if Hg3 is a scythian marker. Perhaps genetically, these areas should more properly be considered turkic rather then indoid, if there is a difference between the two in the first place. Vast tribes like Gujars(khazars) are almost pure Turkic.

While a a general rule, I would agree with Maju and Cvalli-Sforza hypothesis that pre-existing populations settled in pre-history are little changed by small numbers of subsequent invaders(eg arabs in Sind), this is not case in areas where invaders were the first settlers. The area of pakistan known as punjab was a sparsely populated, thickly forested area at the time of Alexanders invasion. From this time on the Greeks founded numerous city colonies in the area (beucephalus, alexandria(uch sharif near lahore, taxila,Sialkot etc.). They even built city colonies in places with large preexisting populations like egypt (alexandria). Furthermore, unlike most other parts of the world, Hindu caste rigidity prevented large scale intermixing with the "Mlecchas". The Arab presence in southern Spain can still be detected in small amounts in the genetic background despite ethnic clensing policies of the Spanish. There are even clusters in the spanish mountains with a large moorish genotype(I forget the name of this community). While undeniably the Greek genepool has been diluted down to small amounts in Pathans etc., it may still be detectable in areas where there were significant Greek colonies, such as the areas around Taxilla and Sialkot,punjab in specific tribal subsections. This is an intriguing possibility for keen history enthusiasts. Ofcourse the difficulty is that both Scythian(majority pakistan I.E) and greek I.E share genetic I.E precursors, and so differentiating the two can be difficult. Similar case with Romans in Britain Perhaps enhanced genetic analysis techniques in the future will be more revealing.

Unquestionably they spoke an I.E language, however that does not exclude them from being genetic precursors to what were later called the central asian Turkic nations. You are confusing linguistic and genetic arguments. The scythian descendents in pakistan today speak indian languages and pashtuns an iranian language. However both have common precursors an a broad sense. Ofcourse there would have been a large I.E. element in those scythians but I believe this is a a central turkic trait. Those epthalite huns that invaded 5th cent.ad( also called white huns) were very caucasoid and iranic looking. So were those huns iranic or turkic. I think pashtuns are more turkic then iranian, it doesnt make pashtuns mongals necessarely.

Sialkot has a very ancient history going back to founding by raja sal of mahabarata fame. but was destroyed several times in history. at one time under House of Euthydemus and Menander, it was without question the epicenter of greek life in the subcontinent. However Alexanders biographers make no mention of a city on the eastern banks of chenab/hyphasis and yet they passed close to the area. 200 years later it was epicenter of indo-greek life. Later the sakas made it their capital as sakala and after them the huns capital under Mahirakula(famous for throwing elephants of cliffs for sport, nice!?). Who made this urban centre so important that its stayed for almost a thousand years. We can trace it back to the indo-greeks and no further.

And even if it was founded by someone else, there was a large greek presence/colony/settlement there