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Greek Ancestry of Northern Pakistani Ethnic Groups?
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TheodoreFelix View Drop Down
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Posts: 694 		  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greek Ancestry of Northern Pakistani Ethnic Groups?
    Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 21:32

A Study of the Greek Ancestry of Northern Pakistani Ethnic Groups Using 115 Microsatellite Markers.

Author: A. Mansoor, Q. Ayub, R. Qamar, K. Mazhar, S. Khali
Filed: 31/10/2002, 00:29:10
Source: American Journal of Human Genetics. Oct 2001 v69
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Author's Abstract:

Pakistan lies in a region that has witnessed multiple invasions and migrations over the centuries and is therefore composed of diverse ethnic groups. Three northern Pakistani populations, the Pathans, the Burusho and the Kalash claim descent from Greek soldiers who were left in this region after Alexander's invasion of the Indian sub-continent in 327-323 B.C. The Burusho reside in Hunza and Nagar Valleys, which are located in the Karakorum mountains and speak the language isolate Burushaski. The Pathan tribes inhabit the North West Frontier Province of Pakistan and parts of neighboring Afghanistan and speak Pushto, an Indo-European language. The Kalash have been isolated for centuries in the Hindu Kush mountain ranges of northern Pakistan and speak Kalasha, which is also an Indo-European language. To investigate the genetic relationship between extant Greek population and the three Pakistani ethnic groups, forty unrelated samples from each population were analyzed using 115 autosomal microsatellite markers. Tri (17) and tetranucleotide (98) were typed by multiplex PCR and analyzed on ABI 377 sequencer using Genescan software (2.1). VisTA and DISPAN programmes were used for principal component analysis and for calculating the genetic distances between these populations. The heterozygosity values for all loci varied between 0.71 (Kalash) to 0.74 (Greeks). The Kalash population was the least heterozygous and had the lowest number of unique alleles. The principal component analysis of allele frequency data grouped the Pathans and the Burushos with the Greeks. A phylogenetic tree generated using DAS values also separated the Kalash from the other three populations with the bootstrap value of 100% from 10,000 replications. The clustering of the Burusho and Pathans with the Greeks suggests that the gene flow has occurred between these populations.

www.faseb.org/cgi-bin/ashg01/show?676886

Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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Zagros View Drop Down
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2005 at 07:10

Let's be a bit more specific - the language of the Kalash and Pathans are Iranic. And do you realize Pathan is the same as Pashtun? The Pathans in Afghanistan and Pakistan number at roughly 50 million (correct me if I am wrong).

Interesting, as far as I was aware only the Kalash claimed to be descended from Alexander's soldiers not the Pathans.
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Posts: 1283 		  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2005 at 18:19
I don't see why language is of any relevance but I do agree that it is the Kalash that claim to be Alexander's decendants.
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2005 at 18:45

Well, it is a common occurance that blatant Iranic groups are not given their specific recognition throughout by countries with a weak national (and I don't mean this in a derogatory manner) history and fractuous polity such as Pakistan and certain Central Asian countries. That is why I corrected the vague "Indo-European" classification.

You'll find also significant genetic similarities between Iranian (country) populations and Greeks, but this is more attributed to ancient IE origins rather than Alexander's army, although they have surely left their genetic legacy too.

I can't imagine Pathans being descended from the Greek army, they are a distinct people with an unambiguous history. 

Alexander also recruited Iranians into his Army before he moved further East and it is interesting that the Kalash language is Iranian in such a linguistically isolated area from other Iranian branches.

I have never heard of the third group before. Apparently their language can't quite be pinpointed.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Burushaski-language
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Posts: 694 		  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2005 at 20:11
Can a small linguist group really survive for that long? Is the area in anyway isolated? This seems to hard to believe considering all that has happened in the Mid East throughout history.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2005 at 20:32

Apparently so.
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 12:01
I watched a video concerning Kalash on national TV.They have similar dances with the Ancient  Hellenes(round dances).Their language seems to contain words very similar to Ancient Hellenic ones.They also have very similar to Ancient Hellenic customs,but i really cannot be more specific right now.
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 12:07

Kalash words-Hellenic ones

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-

-""

-

di-

 

 
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 12:09

To those who know Hellenic:

http://www.poa.gr/periodiko/no13/kalas.htm
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 13:38

Originally posted by Spartakus

I watched a video concerning Kalash on national TV.They have similar dances with the Ancient  Hellenes(round dances).Their language seems to contain words very similar to Ancient Hellenic ones.They also have very similar to Ancient Hellenic customs,but i really cannot be more specific right now.

Have you ever seen Kurdish dancing?  one of the variations also looks similar Greek.
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 14:21
Np.But As i said i cannot really be very much specific concerning Kalash right now.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 18:19

Actually the Dorian and Kurdish drum rythms are the same too.

 



Edited by Zagros Purya
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Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 19:47
Kalash have so much in common with ancient Greeks. It's really amazing for us. Some actions from the Greek State took place to help them maintain their tradition, with schools founded from Greek governments and individual Greeks.
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 13:38

hehe, the "Greek" asimilation on Macedonians goes on or what?

trying to false the history again'?

hehe, so funny...

your claims here are pathetic...

many of the dances are much more similar with the traditional Macedonian Dances, & the language have nothing common with ancient greek, but very similar with old MACEDONIAN & today Macedonian language.

read the studies & disertations that are made by number of woldwide respected scholars.

than, pls learn how many Macedonians & how many Greeks fought in Aleksandas army

 than study good the chain of "reactions" & happenings, also the "rebellion" that greek cities made against Macedonian authorities in Greece DURING the Aleksandars conquest.

than study all the ancient chronics & read how many greeks fought VS Aleksandas army (& why they did that)

than ask yourself why Macedonia (Makedon) was Kingdom, & Greek Cities / Greek (Hellenic) Aliance was "demokratia" (democracy?)

than ask yourself why in the most famous "greek" legends (Iliad & Odisee?)  there is no greek words, but many Macedonian.

than ask yourself why you need to steal other  ppl history / identity

are you ashame of your own? no need, man...

than we come to the point: pls do not steal our history, we will always reveal your lies

 



Edited by Serdarot
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 13:48

Originally posted by Phallanx

I don't see why language is of any relevance but I do agree that it is the Kalash that claim to be Alexander's decendants.

 

why? the common things between the today Macedonian language & ancient language from Aleksandas army is not relevant to you?



Edited by Serdarot
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Posts: 1283 		  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 18:20
Originally posted by Serdarot

]why? the common things between the today Macedonian language & ancient language from Aleksandas army is not relevant to you?


First of all, the english form of the name is Alexander from the Hellinic ALEXANDROS (), since you want to claim to be his descendant the least you could do is SPELL IT CORRECTLY.

Second, there was no Makedonian language but a Makedonian dialect that is part of the Hellinic language.

Third, No, language is not of much relevance simply because the words may have been adopted during his conquest and not due to "racial mix" or soldiers remaining behind.
In every single language you will find Hellinic words, does that prove that they are descendants of the ancient Hellines??
I'd think not.
Proof of them being descendants of Alexander's troops can be found in customs (which need a much longer time to be assimilated) genes and anthropologic finds.

I could post a number of Hellinic words and the corresponding Polynnesian and Peruvian words and place names. Can that prove descent?
If so the Hellines conquered the world.

Finally, stop screwing up every single topic with your BS.
If you have something you think is worth discussing, open a different topic and let these remain on topic.
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 20:55

i agree, stop screwing up every single topic with your BS.

how i spell Aleksandar is my thing, who said i want to spell it as you want to see it spelled?

Alexandros is the "greek" version of Aleksandar, in our culture & civilisation, he was always Aleksandar.

i can provide you with STUDIES & WORKS from INTERNATIONAL scholars, from Universities accros the world, covering THIS subject - the claims from some etnic groups that they are descends from Aleksandars army!

i can provide you with serious studies about the folklour heritage / traditions / linguistic analizes,  you like to?

or you keep on your  bla bla level?

about opening topics: ive just started

i will... many topics

& i am happy to "beat" your "evidence"

 

@ admins, mods & all rest:

i am NOT here to argue or insult anyone!!!

i can not just stand how someone try to assimilate my people / steal our history & cultural heritage!

i am carefull not to hurt feelings, only trying to give my point of view about things concidering my country.

if i understand your writings good (in other topics), i guess almost everyone of you would try to defend his people / country.

so you want to forbit me the right you demand for yourself?

is that greek democracy? is that the world democracy?

so, again, STOP insulting & grow up on the level of civilized communication, or no1 will ever believe you that you (greeks) have or had any culture anytime!

 

peace to all

 

 

 



Edited by Serdarot
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strategos View Drop Down
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Posts: 1096 		  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 21:14
Originally posted by Serdarot

i agree, stop screwing up every single topic with your BS.

how i spell Aleksandar is my thing, who said i want to spell it as you want to see it spelled?

Ok, not just how He does, but it is how it is spelled in ENGLISH. This forum is in English, and we should communicate in English, not  Bulgarian or Makedonian.

 

 



Edited by strategos
http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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TheodoreFelix View Drop Down
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Posts: 694 		  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 21:43
serdarot

I have to be interesting in this discussion and do not like it distroyed by your pseudo-historical knowledge and nation.

Now if you please, open up your own topic if you wish to discuss your junk.
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Posts: 1096 		  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 22:22
Originally posted by Serdarot

 

than ask yourself why Macedonia (Makedon) was Kingdom, & Greek Cities / Greek (Hellenic) Aliance was "demokratia" (democracy?)

 

1. Not all city states were democracies.

2. Macedonia was a Kingdom and a region, just as Thessaly is a region.

3. The Greek city states did not want to be dominated by another kingdom, so isnt it natural to fight back?

4. Were Athenians not Greeks, but a separate Athenian ethnicity? Should another Athenian country be set up, and claim all heritage from Athens? No, that is rediculous, but Tito didnt think it was. Macedonians were Greek just as Spartans, Thebeans, Athenians.

http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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