QuoteReplyTopic: Greek Ancestry of Northern Pakistani Ethnic Groups? Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 00:33
Originally posted by Serdarot
hehe, the "Greek" asimilation on Macedonians goes on or what?
trying to false the history again'?
hehe, so funny...
your claims here are pathetic...
many of the dances are much more similar with the traditional Macedonian Dances, & the language have nothing common with ancient greek, but very similar with old MACEDONIAN & today Macedonian language.
read the studies & disertations that are made by number of woldwide respected scholars.
than, pls learn how many Macedonians & how many Greeks fought in Aleksandas army
than study good the chain of "reactions" & happenings, also the "rebellion" that greek cities made against Macedonian authorities in Greece DURING the Aleksandars conquest.
than study all the ancient chronics & read how many greeks fought VS Aleksandas army (& why they did that)
than ask yourself why Macedonia (Makedon) was Kingdom, & Greek Cities / Greek (Hellenic) Aliance was "demokratia" (democracy?)
than ask yourself why in the most famous "greek" legends (Iliad & Odisee?) there is no greek words, but many Macedonian.
than ask yourself why you need to steal other ppl history / identity
are you ashame of your own? no need, man...
than we come to the point: pls do not steal our history, we will always reveal your lies
Dude, you really need to mellow out.
Back to the topic. This is indeed a very interesting part of world history. In essence these villages are still somewhat Greek in nature. I have read (sorry I forget where, that the Huns destroyed many many such Hellenic settlements during their invasions that eventually ended up wrecking havoc in Europe. Can anyone confirm this? I have also heard there are such communities in Afganistan and India as well.
Investigation of the Greek ancestry of populations from northern Pakistan
Atika Mansoor1, Kehkashan Mazhar1, Shagufta Khaliq1, Abdul Hameed1, Sadia Rehman1, Saima Siddiqi1, Myrto Papaioannou2, L. L. Cavalli-Sforza3, S. Qasim Mehdi1 and Qasim Ayub1
(1)
Biomedical
and Genetic Engineering Division, Dr. A.Q. Khan Research Laboratories,
G.P.O. Box 2891, 44000 Islamabad, Pakistan
(2)
Unit of Prenatal Diagnosis, Center for Thalassemia, Laiko General Hospital, 115 27 Athens, Greece
(3)
Department of Genetics, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305, USA
Received: 8 August 2003 Accepted: 24 January 2004 Published online: 25 February 2004
Abstract
Three
populations from northern Pakistan, the Burusho, Kalash, and Pathan,
claim descent from soldiers left behind by Alexander the Great after
his invasion of the Indo-Pak subcontinent. In order to investigate
their genetic relationships, we analyzed nine Alu insertion
polymorphisms and 113 autosomal microsatellites in the extant Pakistani
and Greek populations. Principal component, phylogenetic, and structure
analyses show that the Kalash are genetically distinct, and that the
Burusho and Pathan populations are genetically close to each other and
the Greek population. Admixture estimates suggest a small Greek
contribution to the genetic pool of the Burusho and Pathan and
demonstrate that these two northern Pakistani populations share a
common Indo-European gene pool that probably predates Alexanders
invasion. The genetically isolated Kalash population may represent the
genetic pool of ancestral Eurasian populations of Central Asia or early
Indo-European nomadic pastoral tribes that became sequestered in the
valleys of the Hindu Kush Mountains.
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Alexandros is the "greek" version of Aleksandar, in our culture & civilisation, he was always Aleksandar.
Dear serdarot,
As you know the were two nations for the Greeks these yrs. Greeks and barbarians. As you also know (i guess) in the Olympic games only Greek could take part and not any kind of barbarians. As you also know Alexander was participating to the Olympics (and he won a medal).
As you know Macedonias (just like spartans etc) loved Greek gods. As you also know Macedonians were speaking a Greek dialect (as all Greek cities had their own dialect).
Now please tell me a few things :
1. Since you know all the above (i guess you do), which are historically proven, do you have any question that you want me to clear for you?
2. Who are you? i mean your country. i really dont know. you saddenly wake up and say "Hey hold on! im Macedonian. The Greeks stole my history!". Where have you been the rest of the years? Its not ironic. i trully dont know.
3. Have you ever been to the grave of Alexander's father Phillp? There are some Greek written there. i wonder how they got there.
4. you are reffering to your culture & civilisation. Ok. Can you please tell me about your culture & civilisation.
Well, I will speak for the Pashtuns, they are Iranic by culture and langauge. As we know Iranics are Indo_Europids and this very fact automatically gives them genetic commonality with other IE cultures, to a varying extent.
Genetic studies (one notably carried out by Sforza) inficated that Hellenes and Iranians are closest to each other genetically than to any other group,. Though I doubt the accuracy of this, as I do not believe a big enough Iranian sample was examined. The primary genetic similarites willl be down to an ancient common descent, but then, this above study also says that a more recent trace of similiraity has been detected, and IT IS THIS similarity which they attribute to the Greek army.
If you take a look at ancient sources you can find:
- Herodotus stating that the Palestinians originally came from the isle of Crete.
- "saith the Lord: Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt, and the Philistines from Caphtor, and Aram from Kir?" (Amos 9:7).
- Tacitus, "The Jews are said to have been refugees from the island of Crete who settled in the remotest corner of Libya"
- Jeremiah, "Ah, Yahweh will destroy the Philistines,Last leavings of Caphtor's isle ".[Jer. 47:4 (Bright 1980, (1980, 309)]
- Sophonius, "Beware to you that live on the shore and to the land of Crete"
Of course there are more proofs about the ties of Philistines with Crete. The first settlement of Philistines seems to have been Gaza, whose original name was "Minoah", a clear reference to the fallen Minoic kingdom.
A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
"The Macedonian Question, is more than a mere squabble over a name. It is a well-designed scheme for annexing the northern Greek provinces of Macedonia and Thrace. It started during the inter-war period, by the decisions of the Comintern and the Balkan communist parties seeking to establish a united (Macedonian and Thracian) State. Subsequently it was Tito, in 1944, who tried to establish such a State within Yugoslavia. He changed the name of Southern Serbia (which had been known as Vardashka since 1913) to "Macedonia" and then proceeded to establish, out of the Slavs of the region (Bulgarians and Serbs), a new Slavic nation inappropriately called "Macedonian".
To transform this theoretical concept into a political reality Tito:
Concocted in 1944 a "Macedonian government" as a first step to the setting up of a Socialist Republic of Macedonia".
Dubbed the local Slavonic dialect "Macedonian language". A special committee worked for years to turn this dialect into the "official Macedonian language".
In 1968 the "Macedonian Church" came into being irregularly, by a government coup. As a result, it was not recognized as a formal Church by any Orthodox Patriarchs or by the Vatican.
In 1969, the "History of the Macedonian nation" was published. Any reference in the world's archives to Macedonia and to historical figures and historical events connected in any way with Macedonia over the millennia, was manipulated and forcibly given a "Macedonian (Slavic) identity".
Thus, politicians and historians collaborated:
to usurp the name, the emblems, and the history of Macedonia;
to set in motion expansionist aspirations, by renaming Greek Macedonia as "Aegean Macedonia", i.e. part of a united Macedonia and issued maps limiting Greece's northern frontiers to Mount Olympus;
to allege the existence of a "Macedonian minority" in Greece.
Their theoretical basis for these claims was based on the assertion that:
The ancient Macedonians, Alexander the Great, the Ptolemies, etc. were not Greeks (an allegation which is repeated in the recent FYROM's school textbooks for 1992-3).
After the arrival of Slavic tribes in the Balkans in the 6th century AD those Slavs, that managed to reach the Byzantine Provinces of Ancient Macedonia, intermarried with the local non-Greek Macedonians and thus they formed a new ethnic group, the "Slavo Macedonians" who subsequently were simply referred to as "Macedonians".
Lack of the slightest credibility on the part of the pseudo-Macedonian "nation" of Skopje is furthermore revealed by the single fact that Skopje's Bulgarians and Serbs discovered only after 1944 that back in the sixth century they had been transformed from Slavs into Macedonians.
To claim that the Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks, however, and to use the term "Slav" with reference to the creation of the "Macedonian nation" is a trick.
The "Macedonian Nation" does not, nor did it ever exist. The Macedonians were Greeks, they spoke the same language and worshipped the same gods (who were inhabiting the Macedonian mountain of Olympus) and performed the same sacrifices, in the same sanctuaries as all the other Greeks.
The Macedonians, together with the rest of Greeks, possess according to Herodotus, the kind and constituent element that composed a nation:
"And next the kinship of all Greeks in blood and speech, and the shrines of gods and the sacrifices that we have in common and the likeness of our way of life " Herodotus, History VIII, 144,2 (Loeb, A.D. Godley)."
By the way there aren't any descendants of the ancient Macedonians (in the same way there aren't descendants of Dorians, Ionians, Acheans etc) and all the Greeks share mixed genes of the ancient populations. The fact that some non-Greek people claim to be Macedonians (so the descendants of ancient Macedonians) because some of their ancestors lived in Macedonia in the recent past while this region was populated by Greeks, Bulgars, Slavs, Albanians, Turks, is simply a ridiculous bedtime story.
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
About the Philistines, it's undeniable that they were Greeks and the Zionists see the win of David over Goliath (who was Philistene) as a win of the Hebrews over their old enemies, the Greeks.
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
as a win of the Hebrews over their old enemies, the Greeks.
We could also mention Hanukah.
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Sounds very similar to a communist plot in a country just north of Iran.
Originally posted by dorian
Human these questions are too difficult for them.
"The Macedonian Question, is more than a mere squabble over a name. It is a well-designed scheme for annexing the northern Greek provinces of Macedonia and Thrace. It started during the inter-war period, by the decisions of the Comintern and the Balkan communist parties seeking to establish a united (Macedonian and Thracian) State. Subsequently it was Tito, in 1944, who tried to establish such a State within Yugoslavia. He changed the name of Southern Serbia (which had been known as Vardashka since 1913) to "Macedonia" and then proceeded to establish, out of the Slavs of the region (Bulgarians and Serbs), a new Slavic nation inappropriately called "Macedonian".
To transform this theoretical concept into a political reality Tito:
Concocted in 1944 a "Macedonian government" as a first step to the setting up of a Socialist Republic of Macedonia".
Dubbed the local Slavonic dialect "Macedonian language". A special committee worked for years to turn this dialect into the "official Macedonian language".
In 1968 the "Macedonian Church" came into being irregularly, by a government coup. As a result, it was not recognized as a formal Church by any Orthodox Patriarchs or by the Vatican.
In 1969, the "History of the Macedonian nation" was published. Any reference in the world's archives to Macedonia and to historical figures and historical events connected in any way with Macedonia over the millennia, was manipulated and forcibly given a "Macedonian (Slavic) identity".
Thus, politicians and historians collaborated:
to usurp the name, the emblems, and the history of Macedonia;
to set in motion expansionist aspirations, by renaming Greek Macedonia as "Aegean Macedonia", i.e. part of a united Macedonia and issued maps limiting Greece's northern frontiers to Mount Olympus;
to allege the existence of a "Macedonian minority" in Greece.
Their theoretical basis for these claims was based on the assertion that:
The ancient Macedonians, Alexander the Great, the Ptolemies, etc. were not Greeks (an allegation which is repeated in the recent FYROM's school textbooks for 1992-3).
After the arrival of Slavic tribes in the Balkans in the 6th century AD those Slavs, that managed to reach the Byzantine Provinces of Ancient Macedonia, intermarried with the local non-Greek Macedonians and thus they formed a new ethnic group, the "Slavo Macedonians" who subsequently were simply referred to as "Macedonians".
Lack of the slightest credibility on the part of the pseudo-Macedonian "nation" of Skopje is furthermore revealed by the single fact that Skopje's Bulgarians and Serbs discovered only after 1944 that back in the sixth century they had been transformed from Slavs into Macedonians.
To claim that the Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks, however, and to use the term "Slav" with reference to the creation of the "Macedonian nation" is a trick.
The "Macedonian Nation" does not, nor did it ever exist. The Macedonians were Greeks, they spoke the same language and worshipped the same gods (who were inhabiting the Macedonian mountain of Olympus) and performed the same sacrifices, in the same sanctuaries as all the other Greeks.
The Macedonians, together with the rest of Greeks, possess according to Herodotus, the kind and constituent element that composed a nation:
"And next the kinship of all Greeks in blood and speech, and the shrines of gods and the sacrifices that we have in common and the likeness of our way of life " Herodotus, History VIII, 144,2 (Loeb, A.D. Godley)."
By the way there aren't any descendants of the ancient Macedonians (in the same way there aren't descendants of Dorians, Ionians, Acheans etc) and all the Greeks share mixed genes of the ancient populations. The fact that some non-Greek people claim to be Macedonians (so the descendants of ancient Macedonians) because some of their ancestors lived in Macedonia in the recent past while this region was populated by Greeks, Bulgars, Slavs, Albanians, Turks, is simply a ridiculous bedtime story.
hehe, the "Greek" asimilation on Macedonians goes on or what?
trying to false the history again'?
hehe, so funny...
your claims here are pathetic...
many of the dances are much more similar with the traditional Macedonian Dances, & the language have nothing common with ancient greek, but very similar with old MACEDONIAN & today Macedonian language.
read the studies & disertations that are made by number of woldwide respected scholars.
than, pls learn how many Macedonians & how many Greeks fought in Aleksandas army
than study good the chain of "reactions" & happenings, also the "rebellion" that greek cities made against Macedonian authorities in Greece DURING the Aleksandars conquest.
than study all the ancient chronics & read how many greeks fought VS Aleksandas army (& why they did that)
than ask yourself why Macedonia (Makedon) was Kingdom, & Greek Cities / Greek (Hellenic) Aliance was "demokratia" (democracy?)
than ask yourself why in the most famous "greek" legends (Iliad & Odisee?) there is no greek words, but many Macedonian.
than ask yourself why you need to steal other ppl history / identity
are you ashame of your own? no need, man...
than we come to the point: pls do not steal our history, we will always reveal your lies
"The Macedonian Question, is more than a mere squabble over a name. It is a well-designed scheme for annexing the northern Greek provinces of Macedonia and Thrace. It started during the inter-war period, by the decisions of the Comintern and the Balkan communist parties seeking to establish a united (Macedonian and Thracian) State. Subsequently it was Tito, in 1944, who tried to establish such a State within Yugoslavia. He changed the name of Southern Serbia (which had been known as Vardashka since 1913) to "Macedonia" and then proceeded to establish, out of the Slavs of the region (Bulgarians and Serbs), a new Slavic nation inappropriately called "Macedonian".
To transform this theoretical concept into a political reality Tito:
Concocted in 1944 a "Macedonian government" as a first step to the setting up of a Socialist Republic of Macedonia".
Dubbed the local Slavonic dialect "Macedonian language". A special committee worked for years to turn this dialect into the "official Macedonian language".
In 1968 the "Macedonian Church" came into being irregularly, by a government coup. As a result, it was not recognized as a formal Church by any Orthodox Patriarchs or by the Vatican.
In 1969, the "History of the Macedonian nation" was published. Any reference in the world's archives to Macedonia and to historical figures and historical events connected in any way with Macedonia over the millennia, was manipulated and forcibly given a "Macedonian (Slavic) identity".
Thus, politicians and historians collaborated:
to usurp the name, the emblems, and the history of Macedonia;
to set in motion expansionist aspirations, by renaming Greek Macedonia as "Aegean Macedonia", i.e. part of a united Macedonia and issued maps limiting Greece's northern frontiers to Mount Olympus;
to allege the existence of a "Macedonian minority" in Greece.
Their theoretical basis for these claims was based on the assertion that:
The ancient Macedonians, Alexander the Great, the Ptolemies, etc. were not Greeks (an allegation which is repeated in the recent FYROM's school textbooks for 1992-3).
After the arrival of Slavic tribes in the Balkans in the 6th century AD those Slavs, that managed to reach the Byzantine Provinces of Ancient Macedonia, intermarried with the local non-Greek Macedonians and thus they formed a new ethnic group, the "Slavo Macedonians" who subsequently were simply referred to as "Macedonians".
Lack of the slightest credibility on the part of the pseudo-Macedonian "nation" of Skopje is furthermore revealed by the single fact that Skopje's Bulgarians and Serbs discovered only after 1944 that back in the sixth century they had been transformed from Slavs into Macedonians.
To claim that the Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks, however, and to use the term "Slav" with reference to the creation of the "Macedonian nation" is a trick.
The "Macedonian Nation" does not, nor did it ever exist. The Macedonians were Greeks, they spoke the same language and worshipped the same gods (who were inhabiting the Macedonian mountain of Olympus) and performed the same sacrifices, in the same sanctuaries as all the other Greeks.
The Macedonians, together with the rest of Greeks, possess according to Herodotus, the kind and constituent element that composed a nation:
"And next the kinship of all Greeks in blood and speech, and the shrines of gods and the sacrifices that we have in common and the likeness of our way of life " Herodotus, History VIII, 144,2 (Loeb, A.D. Godley)."
By the way there aren't any descendants of the ancient Macedonians (in the same way there aren't descendants of Dorians, Ionians, Acheans etc) and all the Greeks share mixed genes of the ancient populations. The fact that some non-Greek people claim to be Macedonians (so the descendants of ancient Macedonians) because some of their ancestors lived in Macedonia in the recent past while this region was populated by Greeks, Bulgars, Slavs, Albanians, Turks, is simply a ridiculous bedtime story.
Hello everyone, this is my first post. Let me just give a first impression:
I am amazed that you all have so much detailed knowledge of such a large number of relatively inconsequential ethnic groups. Also, I am amazed how rude and insulting you are to each other. From personal experience, I have found out that ethnic groups in this part of the world tend to hate each other with a passion. I would hope that you do not bring this emnity here to this science of history. Lets be civilized and show hospitality to each other.
My interest in the subject is limited to an explanation I have made in my study of civilizations that Hindu society originate from a brutal religion-lingual-culture called "IndoEuropean" which migrated thru Iran from north and northwest and into Pakistan in about 1,500 b.c. and which absorbed gods into its system from the matrilineal people in the Indus valley which they conquered.
I am interested if there is any further light the group can shed on this.
There are many differing points of view on that subject based on mostly on selective evidence, I think you should start a new thread with your theory and perhaps go as in depth with it as you can it is an interesting topic to moot.
Lets be civilized and show hospitality to each other.
I am sorry to say that there is a fat chance of that with Turks, Greeks, Armenians, Iranians and Arabs in the same place it's the perfect recipe for anything but civilized.
I bet a similar trace will be found in Iran,
considerinmg Alexander as a policy told his men to take
Iranian wives
The connection may be much older. I recall some accounts of Persians
being descendants of Perseus and that is where their name derives but
I'll have to look that one up for more info.
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Hello everyone, this is my first post. Let me just give a first impression:
I am amazed that you all have so much detailed knowledge of such a large number of relatively inconsequential ethnic groups. Also, I am amazed how rude and insulting you are to each other. From personal experience, I have found out that ethnic groups in this part of the world tend to hate each other with a passion. I would hope that you do not bring this emnity here to this science of history. Lets be civilized and show hospitality to each other.
My interest in the subject is limited to an explanation I have made in my study of civilizations that Hindu society originate from a brutal religion-lingual-culture called "IndoEuropean" which migrated thru Iran from north and northwest and into Pakistan in about 1,500 b.c. and which absorbed gods into its system from the matrilineal people in the Indus valley which they conquered.
I am interested if there is any further light the group can shed on this.
The problem here is that everyone is kinda of "that's flat" and it makes the discussion difficult.
Brutal Indoeuropeans? Why?
Edited by dorian
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum