On the subject of Taiwan

Well, I wrote this to reply to fastspawn in another section.  But I think this is where this post should be.  So I moved it.  I welcome logical and evidence giving discussions.  After all, that's what this forum is for.  Han-Zi in this post are encoded in Big-5 traditional.  Original post goes as follows:

to fastspawn,

The Chinese government did not just say the land is a apart of china. They taught their children saying they are all historically Chinese in both blood and culture. Here the word  "they" can be changed from Uyghurs, Tibetans, Taiwanese and any other "Chinese and always has beens".

Most Taiwanese are not Chinese. Taiwan, Formosa, was first permanently discovered and named by the Portuguese. Then partly occupied by the Dutch, the Spanish and invaded by the French, American and Japanese. Dutch people were actually the people that started immigrating Chinese to Taiwan. They imported poor Chinese people along the coast of China to work for them, much like what the Spanish did in the Philippines and other European powers did in South East Asia. When the Dutch people arrived in Taiwan, Taiwan was entirely inhabited by the Austronesian tribes.

Dutch people even gave the Silaya tribe writing inorder to preach to them. Silayan writing continued to the end of Qing dynasty.  Many sales documents were written both in Silayan and Chinese.  The Dutch estimated the aboriginal population to be around 600 to 700 thousands, which was an underestimation due to the lack of knowledge of Mountainous area and the East coast aboriginals. When the Chinese people came to China, they are mostly male. Much like those Chinese male brought to America to build the transcontinental rail roads. This continued when the Qing dynasty occupied Taiwan.

The Dutch-Singkang bilingul Bible printed by Dutch preacher Daniel Graviuse for Silayans who lived in the Tainan area.  (Sorry I tried to look for a bigger picture, I have the book with large pictures of it but I am still saving money for my Canon SLR Rebel EOS).  For those who speaks Austronesian languages:

Matthew 1:1

Soulat ki kavouytan ti Juzus Christus, ka na alak ti Davis, ka na alak ti Abraham.

Matthew 6:22

'Æuyng ki vouäl ta matta; Irou rou mapaæhpæuh mariang ta matta oho, doumiaka ma ymd'-âl-ato maræmæh ta vouäl-oho.

alak: Son, descendent

vouäl: Body

matta: eyes

The Chinese male came to Taiwan in hope of making a living and return to China with wealth. However, most of them were just as broke in Taiwan as they were in China and never returned. Most of them ended up marrying the aboriginals. Therefore there's a Taiwanese saying �u����s���A�L��s���v "These are only Grandpas from China, no Grandmas from China". Due to the lack of writing, and the concept of ownership like most Austronesians, the strong Chinese culture influence eventually assimilated most of the aboriginals who lived along the coast (���H�� Ping-Pu aboriginals). That is why average Taiwanese has 80% of Austronesian traits show by the recent DNA tests. Most Taiwanese people are still Austronesians. The all 700 thousand didn't just all disappear to occupy less than 2% of the Taiwanese population.

You can argue that culturally most Taiwanese are similar to those of Han Chinese. However, having the same culture does not mean they are the same country or they have always been the same country or entitle any nation to claim another nation as its territory. Germany and Austria are different nations there are many examples that just because people spoke the same language or came from the same place, doesn't mean they have to be one nation.

China claims that Taiwan has always been an inseparable part of China historically. I seriously doubt their understanding of the word always. Here's "some Chinese documents" proving Taiwan is not always part of China.

�@�����T�~�H���e�X�L�x�n�ϭرF�ɡA�H�x�����ĴN���A�x�W�D���� �����ϡA�]�رF�L���H���Z�֫ءA�ҥH�~�X�L�C�P�ɪ����ǥ�Ʀܻ� �G�u���O�����H�N�x���餧���\�A�^�u�H�S�������ҿתF�f�]���Y�x �W�^�]�C�v

In 1603, General Shen You-Rong went to Tainan to rid of the pirates. The recorder Chen Di wrote "Taiwan is not a part of China. It is because of the Japanese pirates settling here, forcing us to come here. Recorder Chen Xue-Yi wrote "If not for General Shen You-Rong's successful military action, even a QuanZhou, FuJian person like me, wouldn't know of the existence of DongFan (Eastern Barbarians, referring to Taiwan).

�m���v�n�q�~��C�ǡr�u��Ţ�s�b������F�_�A�G�W�_��A�S�W�F�f �A�h�u�{����C�K�v

Keelang (Northern Taiwan, name comes from the tribe called Ketagalan) is to the northeast of Pescadores islands, used to be known as BeiGang (Port of North), also known as DongFan (Eastern Barbarians). It is quiet far from QuanZhou, FuJian.

-- Ming Shi (History of Ming Dynasty)
Taiwan was listed along with Japan, Corea, RyuKyo and Vietnam. Obviously not a part of China.

�l�����~�A�ˬӫҧY��A�@��G�u�x�W�ۥj���ݤ���A�� �Ӧү��Z�]�Y�d���ҡ^�����A�ݤJ���ϡC... �v
--�M�E�Q���G�i�t�Z�����j���i�d�����w�x�W�O�j

The first Year of Yung-Zheng, Emperor Xian sit in the thorn, he stated: "Taiwan was not a part of China since the ancient times. Our Emperor KaoShenWu (referring to Emperor KangXi) has great influence, expanded our territory to include it..."

--Qing Dynasty. Wei Yuan: "Kang Xi taking Taiwan" from The Military achievements of KangXi (Sheng Wu Ji Lue)

The Dutch actually didn't want Taiwan at first. They wanted Pescadores Islands (now ��� Penghu islands owned by Taiwan) in between China and Taiwan, which was a part of China since the Mongolian Yuan dynasty. The Dutch and the Ming dynasty had a war in 1622 over Pescadores. In 1624, Ming dynasty and Dutch came to agreement when Ming dynasty suggested the Dutch go to the ownerless island (well, it was owned by the aboriginals and some Japanese-Chinese pirates) of Taiwan. In 1626, Spanish occupied the northern part of Taiwan, but was driven out by the Dutch in 1642. The Spanish left behind some buildings and some names for places. For example �T�I�� (In Taiwanese, San Diao Go) which is Spanish name of San Diego.

San Dimingo, located in Tapei, built by the Spanish in 1629.  Sacked by the Dutch in 1642.  Taiwanese called it ���� (the Red hair castle).  It was later used as a British embassy during Qing dynasty.  The British actually owned this castle until 1972. When UK stopped formal relations with Taiwan, the castle was returned after some international negotiations. 

The Dutch was driven out of Taiwan by �G���\ Zheng Cheng-Gong (Cheng Xing-Gong, a.k.a KoSingYa). He is the son of a Chinese pirate, and was born in Japan by his Japanese mother. His father surrendered to Ming Dynasty when Ming Dynasty bought him out with money for him to be a general of China. When the Manchurians invaded the Ming Dynasty, Zheng's father surrendered again to the Manchurians. Zheng refused to give up the fight and disowned his father. He continued fighting the Manchurians, eventually losing all the mainland grounds.

He turned his attention to Taiwan where his father sometime hid to avoid capture. The Dutch has build two fortresses, Zeelandia and Provintia. Where the Dutch believed the enemy came only approach from one direction. However an Chinese worker informed Zheng of an secret water way. When Zheng arrived under full moon and high tide, this secret water way opened up, and he was able to surprise the Dutch and force them to surrender. His invasion of Taiwan was successful. However, his grandson forced general �I�w Shi Lang to defect to the Manchurian Qing dynasty. Shi took the Qing navy down the same path Zheng went, and Zheng's grandson surrendered Taiwan to the Qing dynasty.

Qing dynasty actually didn't make Taiwan a province of China until the 1885, almost the end of Qing dynasty, when Taiwan was wanted by the Europeans and the Japanese. In 1884, France invaded Taiwan along with Vietnam. The Qing dynasty was able to drive them out of both places, neither were part of China. However Qing dynasty realized the importance of China and made Taiwan an province the following month.

By the end of Qing dynasty it was absolute humiliation for the Chinese empire. In 1894, Corea was invaded by Japan. Qing dynasty went to Corean's aid and was defeated by the Europeanized Japan. Qing dynasty was forced to sign ��������, The Treaty of Shimonoseki (known in Japan as �U������). In which Qing China "permanently" gave Taiwan to Japan. The Chinese representative ���E�� Lee Hung-Zhang wrote to the Qing court saying the people in Taiwan are simply barbarians. It is not a big deal of giving up Taiwan, because in Taiwan �u�k�L���A�k�L�q�A�����y�A�ᤣ���v "Their man has no loyalty. Their woman has no self-respect. Their birds don't sing. Their flowers don't have fragrance."

The Taiwanese rebel upon the Japanese invasion. It declared its independence call called itself �x�W���D��, Republic Nation of Taiwan.  The Chinese leader of the resistance first hoped that the Europeans would come to their aid, when they discovered the Europeans and Americans had no interests in helping them, they fled back to China. However the people of Taiwan fought on. They at one point killed the Japanese royalty in charge of the invasion. At the end, the resistance fought by the Han-Taiwanese and the aboriginal Taiwanese failed.

The flag of Republic Nation of Taiwan.  If the resistance was a success, it would have been the first republic nation in Asia.

However other resistance movements never stopped. The most famous is the rebellion of the Atayal Tribe, led by Monaludo. The Japanese had to use the chemical weapons to kill them in their hiding place.

There's more on this topic that I can write another thread just as long, explaining the international treaties after World War 2 that granted Taiwan's future is for Taiwanese people to decide in the future. Also explaining how the Nationalist Chinese party (Guo Ming Dang) has suppressed the Taiwanese people by means of a police state and misrepresented Taiwan for 45 years. The nationalist can claim as much as they want that China is still under their control. But they are delusional, any idiot knows that is not true and will never be true again. If you want to read about that, I'll write those some other time.

Today Taiwan is a completely free and democratic nation. China points about 500 missiles along their coast line, pointing towards Taiwan.  That is the most fortified coast line today in the world.  Yet they claim it is the Taiwanese disturbing the peace, while they deny Taiwan from every international organization, even that of the World Health Organization during the height of the SARS out break.

In my personal opinion, the real reason for Chinese to claim Taiwan is for its military strategic importance. Right now the Chinese navy has no free entrance into the Pacific. It is blocked by Corea, Japan, RyuKyu to the north, Taiwan and Philippines to the south. China is eagerly building up their navy, especially in its carriers and anti-carrier forces. If Taiwan is part of China, its only purpose is to serve China as the lunching base of its navy into the pacific. And By doing so, China can become a real world power.

I still don't think what is going on with this Koguryo thing is a Chinese propaganda.   

But if it is, maybe the Chinese government knows something about North Corea that we don't.

Maybe Kim Jong-il has just been replaced by a Terminator from the future and is set out for the machine take over.  And China wants to save the world while not to be misunderstood as an invading army.  So it is trying to prepare the rest of the world to see their heroic, self-sacraficing act as re-unification.

I've heard that China is looking to move into North Korea when it collapses, and the Koguryo thing is to prepare for that..

but of course, I heard this on Korean internet, that huge thingy where info spread so very quickly, whether it be true or BS, so I can't be sure if its correct or not..

No Michael!  Save the world from the machines!  Didn't you ever watch Terminator, featuring our governor?

I actually don't view America that way.  I actually view America the same way South Park views America.  It is just a place who allows both voices, so that when they do something you can't really blam America, because many Americans is against it to begin with.

I studied in Irvine.  Now I am in San Jose.

To be honest.  I know black and white are not equal in all fronts just yet.  But it is really not as bad as before.  Things are continously changing.  That's good.  No one is happy with what have been achieved so far.  The most important thing now is not about the races, is about how to improve the Urban areas and get kids from the city more chances to education.

Actually, black people are getting all the cool stereo-types now... since all the negative stereo-types have been proven wrong.  Now we just need to prove not all of them can dance, and sing like Usher, and hung like a horse for the benefit of other races.  WE ARE ALL EQUAL DAMN IT!......  At least I am

Don't forget there are two equal forces in the main stream.  But they are all mostly white.  But dont forget.... white people do have the number advantage.  Like I said thing are changing.  The lack of social mobility is changing.  and I hope it will continue to change. 

I had my share of lefty soci-professors, I read my All the presidents spin.  One thing I've noticed though.  Most of the lefties in the 70s are now conservatives.  Then I realized it is actually an age thing more than anything.  When you are young and don't have a stake in anything, it's easier to critisize everything.  Then when you are getting old, you want to protect what you have so you'll have some stability.

In your opinion, what is the reason of the decrease of the American supremecy?  I rather enjoyed it.  Personally I think the only reason for the decrease of the American supremecy is the end of the cold car.  After cold war's over, who needs America?

Irvine is a great place to live no?  After Irvine, everywhere else in America looks like sh*t.

To Warhead,

JIANG ZEMINS EIGHT POINTS ON TAIWAN

Stressing that the Chinese should not fight among themselves, Jiang indicated that the use of military force cannot be discarded, but will only be directed at foreign powers who would interfere in the reunification process and engage in a Taiwan independent plot(Point 4).

The 5,000 year-old Chinese culture, a spiritual link holding together Chinas sons and daughters, was then hailed as an important basis for reunification (Point 6).

There's a lot more.  Just hard to find them in English.  I am sorry, but that's what the PRC has ALWAYS said about the Taiwanese people.  They do so on international venues and they do so ever more at home.

The Treaty of San Francisco never returned Taiwan to China.  The Shimoseki treaty was never nullified.  Japan simply gave up Manchuria and Taiwan.  Where in the Shimoseki treaty ever mentioned giving Manchuria to Japan anyway?  Why should the nulification of Shimoseki effect Japan's ownership of Manchuria? This is what the treaty actually said:

CHAPTER II

TERRITORY

Article 2

(a) Japan recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet.

(b) Japan renounces all right, title and claim to Formosa and the Pescadores.

(c) Japan renounces all right, title and claim to the Kurile Islands, and to that portion of Sakhalin and the islands adjacent to it over which Japan acquired sovereignty as a consequence of the Treaty of Portsmouth of 5 September 1905.

(d) Japan renounces all right, title and claim in connection with the League of Nations Mandate System, and accepts the action of the United Nations Security Council of 2 April 1947, extending the trusteeship system to the Pacific Islands formerly under mandate to Japan.

(e) Japan renounces all claim to any right or title to or interest in connection with any part of the Antarctic area, whether deriving from the activities of Japanese nationals or otherwise.

(f) Japan renounces all right, title and claim to the Spratly Islands and to the Paracel Islands.

So, where was this nulification of Shimoseki?  They simply gave up their claim over it.

Now let's recall why Japanese surrendered Taiwan to the Nationalist China and not the Americans:

Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek, leader of the Chinese military region, had been the Supreme Allied Commander in the Asia Region during the war; on October 25 1945, Chiang sent representatives to Taiwan, and represented the Allied Forces at the ceremony accepting Japan's surrender of "the Chinese Theater's Taiwan Province," and temporarily took over control of Taiwan and the Penghu region after the departure of the Japanese Taiwan Governor's Office.

Chiang accpected the Japanese surrender on the Allies behave, not the ROC.  Sine in San Francisco Treaty, Japan only forfeited their claim to Taiwan but actually never said who has the right to Taiwan.  The situation of Taiwan is much like those of Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste and other disputed lands that was forcefully over taken by the one of the Allies.  Theoretically, the future resolution of the Taiwan issue should be carried out, according to the aims and principles of the UN Charter, and under the principle of self-determination by its inhabitants, by means of a public referendum, which would ask about the direction desired by the inhabitants of the region, before a verdict can be reached.

In fact the PRC knows if they go with the San Francisco treaty, they will lose their claim to Taiwan.  That is why the PRC have expressed their disreguard of the the San Francisco treaty due to the lack in presence of a Chinese representative.

Finally on the note of The Republic Nation of Taiwan.  I did not forget to mention that the first leaders were in fact Qing dynasty appointed officials.  I mentioned that they ran away from the first day of the battle.  The Taiwanese people fouhgt on without these Qing dynasty people telling them what to do.  There are journals of this period that shows people weren't fighting to be part of China.  They were just fighting NOT to be part of Japan. 

In fact the aboriginals and the Han-Taiwanese have worked together for the first time in fighting the Japanese.  There was a battle on Mabanban mountain, where the Taiwanese set a trap to push the Japanese down the mountain when they pass through the narrow passage.  These Atayal aboriginals were definately not fighting to be part of Qing dynasty again.  The matter of fact is, the Qing dynasty forces in Taiwan all gave up with out a fight, whether in Taipei, or in Tainan.  It was the Taiwanese people, whether they were Hakka or Holo, were the ones who really fought the war from Keelung all the way to Jia-Yi.

So, Mr. Warhead please re-examine the evidence.

To fastspawn...

Well, the government during the Chinese civil war era actually invaded Taiwan as I explain on the above thread.  The nationalist government had no claim over taiwan.  But since then Japan also made a separate peace treaty after the San Francisco treaty with the nationalist Chinese.  It didn't say Taiwan will be given to the ROC.  In fact it said the exact samething as the San Francisco treaty. 

But since the death of Jiang kai-shek and his son, the current government has became a true democracy.  Where the people of Taiwan can choose their own leaders, elect officials, even hold referendums.  It structuraly shared some fundations of the nationalist invaders, but it has became a Taiwanese government.

Zheng's forces occupied as much land as the dutch.  Taiwan was still a true Austronesian island.

The following is not directed at anyone, especially not to fastspawn.  One thing I found to my dismay is often times people say there was never Taiwanese determination.  Just because the Aboriginals didn't understand the international laws, just because they didn't have the modern sense of ownership, they still owned and ruled this island. 

People are sounding like colonialist saying if only aboriginals lived there, and no "real" countries claimed it, then this island is up for grabs.  Sure that's what people did back in the 1600s when the aboriginals were considered less than human, but it is 2004 today!!  Why are there still people who talk like a freaking racists when it comes to these kind of issues?

Taiwan was an Austronesian society, operated under Austronesian rules.  They have determination.  That's why everytime there's an invasion, they rebel.  That's why the get massacared and that's why the Dutch, the Chinese and the Japanese tries so hard to make them forget they are Aboriginals.

"Finally on the note of The Republic Nation of Taiwan.  I did not forget to mention that the first leaders were in fact Qing dynasty appointed officials.  I mentioned that they ran away from the first day of the battle.  The Taiwanese people fouhgt on without these Qing dynasty people telling them what to do.  There are journals of this period that shows people weren't fighting to be part of China.  They were just fighting NOT to be part of Japan"

No, Liu Yong Fu, the leader of the black banner regiment of sino-vietnam war and later the leader of Taiwan movement was not Taiwanese nor was he officially under the service of Qing, but he did declare the republic of Taiwan to be a Qing vassal after its brief gained independence and thats a fact.