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Exarchus
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Topic: Found: Europes oldest civilisation Posted: 11-Jun-2005 at 09:26 |
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=645976
11 June 2005
Archaeologists have discovered Europe's oldest civilisation, a network of dozens of temples, 2,000 years older than Stonehenge and the Pyramids.
More than 150 gigantic monuments have been located beneath the fields and cities of modern-day Germany, Austria and Slovakia. They were built 7,000 years ago, between 4800BC and 4600BC. Their discovery, revealed today by The Independent, will revolutionise the study of prehistoric Europe, where an appetite for monumental architecture was thought to have developed later than in Mesopotamia and Egypt.
In all, more than 150 temples have been identified. Constructed of earth and wood, they had ramparts and palisades that stretched for up to half a mile. They were built by a religious people who lived in communal longhouses up to 50 metres long, grouped around substantial villages. Evidence suggests their economy was based on cattle, sheep, goat and pig farming.
Their civilisation seems to have died out after about 200 years and the recent archaeological discoveries are so new that the temple building culture does not even have a name yet.
Excavations have been taking place over the past few years - and have triggered a re-evaluation of similar, though hitherto mostly undated, complexes identified from aerial photographs throughout central Europe.
Archaeologists are now beginning to suspect that hundreds of these very early monumental religious centres, each up to 150 metres across, were constructed across a 400-mile swath of land in what is now Austria, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and eastern Germany.
The most complex excavated so far - located inside the city of Dresden - consisted of an apparently sacred internal space surrounded by two palisades, three earthen banks and four ditches.
The monuments seem to be a phenomenon associated exclusively with a period of consolidation and growth that followed the initial establishment of farming cultures in the centre of the continent.
It is possible that the newly revealed early Neolithic monument phenomenon was the consequence of an increase in the size of - and competition between - emerging Neolithic tribal or pan-tribal groups, arguably Europe's earliest mini-states.
After a relatively brief period - perhaps just one or two hundred years - either the need or the socio-political ability to build them disappeared, and monuments of this scale were not built again until the Middle Bronze Age, 3,000 years later. Why this monumental culture collapsed is a mystery.
The archaeological investigation into these vast Stone Age temples over the past three years has also revealed several other mysteries. First, each complex was only used for a few generations - perhaps 100 years maximum. Second, the central sacred area was nearly always the same size, about a third of a hectare. Third, each circular enclosure ditch - irrespective of diameter - involved the removal of the same volume of earth. In other words, the builders reduced the depth and/or width of each ditch in inverse proportion to its diameter, so as to always keep volume (and thus time spent) constant .
Archaeologists are speculating that this may have been in order to allow each earthwork to be dug by a set number of special status workers in a set number of days - perhaps to satisfy the ritual requirements of some sort of religious calendar.
The multiple bank, ditch and palisade systems "protecting" the inner space seem not to have been built for defensive purposes - and were instead probably designed to prevent ordinary tribespeople from seeing the sacred and presumably secret rituals which were performed in the "inner sanctum" .
The investigation so far suggests that each religious complex was ritually decommissioned at the end of its life, with the ditches, each of which had been dug successively, being deliberately filled in.
"Our excavations have revealed the degree of monumental vision and sophistication used by these early farming communities to create Europe's first truly large scale earthwork complexes," said the senior archaeologist, Harald Staeuble of the Saxony state government's heritage department, who has been directing the archaeological investigations. Scientific investigations into the recently excavated material are taking place in Dresden.
The people who built the huge circular temples were the descendants of migrants who arrived many centuries earlier from the Danube plain in what is now northern Serbia and Hungary. The temple-builders were pastoralists, controlling large herds of cattle, sheep and goats as well as pigs. They made tools of stone, bone and wood, and small ceramic statues of humans and animals. They manufactured substantial amounts of geometrically decorated pottery, and they lived in large longhouses in substantial villages.
One village complex and temple at Aythra, near Leipzig, covers an area of 25 hectares. Two hundred longhouses have been found there. The population would have been up to 300 people living in a highly organised settlement of 15 to 20 very large communal buildings.
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Vae victis!
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Komnenos
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Posted: 11-Jun-2005 at 11:00 |
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Le Renard
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Posted: 11-Jun-2005 at 20:04 |
This is really awsome! I wonder who this people are and what they did!
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"History repeats itself because nobody listened the first time."
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YusakuJon3
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Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 22:10 |
Ancestors of the Celts, I guess. Their origins have
been traced to roughly the same part of Europe, from which they
migrated after the 3rd millenium BC. By the days of the
familiar Greek and Roman civilizations, they were mostly limited to a
corner of northern Europe straddling the English Channel. One of
the things which stands out about Celtic culture is the structure
of certain religious sites such as Stonehenge. Many such sites
also include concentric ditches and ramparts such as described above,
so it wouldn't surprise me if that design was a surviving concept from
the ancient culture now being discussed.
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Zagros
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Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 07:16 |
Stonehenge wasn't built by celts was it? Celts didn't arrive in the biritsh isles till much later, I thought.
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Cywr
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Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 09:05 |
Stonehenge predates what is understood to be the Celtic era, but there
again, the entire notion that there was a mass migration of Celts into
the UK is dusputed, rather cultural diffusion is the in thing somewhat.
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Maju
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Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 16:18 |
These people belonged to the culture of Western Linear Pottery, also known as Danubian Neolithic,
the first farmers to settle in Central Europe. Their origins are in the
Hungarian area but they can be traced to the first Europeans farmers of
Thessaly (Sesklo), who eventually came from the Near East. Still they
surely had some strong admixture with European natives, though the
cultural elements are almost exclussively imported (though evolving as
they march).
Some of these "temples" had been located earlier. But it seems that now
they have found the phenomena to be widespread and the ritualistic
meaning to be more clear. Cool!
I don't think these peoples are (culturally) direct ancestors of Celts
but the original Celtic group (as well as other Western IE groups)
could well have evolved after IEs invaded these Danubians between 3000 and 2400 BCE. As Danubians weren't
any backward people (actually I suspect they resisted the IE invasions
for some time pretty solidly) it may well be that they influenced the
culture of Celts (for instance the torques is first found among Danubians!).
But the Megalithic culture (rather phenomenon)
that eventually gave birth to Stonehenge doesn't have this origin but
SW Iberia. It seems to have spread among "native" (post-Magdalenian)
peoples of Atlantic Europe around 3500-3000 BCE, later extending its
scope to some Danubian and Mediterranean groups.
Eventually, much later, the Celts, that sprung from the Rhin area,
conquered and assimilated some of those peoples, learning druidism
(imported to the continent from Britain)... but that's another story.
I don't think it's justified to call them a civilization, as their were a rather rural (though sedentary) kin only because they built temples. Civilization comes from city.
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Phallanx
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Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 17:31 |
Their origins are in the
Hungarian area but they can be traced to the first Europeans farmers of
Thessaly (Sesklo), who eventually came from the Near East. |
The first farmers of Europe were obviously those of the agricultural
cultivation in Nea Nicomedia (7.000 B.C.). We have finds of 2,000
decarbonated wheat seeds in N. Nicomedia, proving that knew how to
cultivate the ground from the 7th millenium B.C.
I would like you to support your claim of their origin to be the Near East with some facts.
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Maju
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Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 18:49 |
Sesklo, Nea Nikomedia... where's the difference? That culture is known
as Sesklo (after c. 6000 BCE) and pre-Sesklo (before, but not as much
as 7000 BCE for what I know). Do not mix specific sites (that can
include several succesive cultures) with cultures (that just take most
often the name from one of the sites), please.
I can't proof that they came from the Near East but seems very likely. I can give some hints though:
Hacilar in Anatolia seems to be related to Sesklo and pre-Sesklo, while
the Cardium Pottery also found in pre-Sesklo and later in the
Mediterranean Neolithic has a clear relative in Biblos. Still these
could well derive from pre-Sesklo and not vice versa (depending on the
datations used).
Also it's clear that agriculture was first developed in the Near East,
at least before than in Greece or anywhere in Europe. And the
pre-Sesklo and Sesklo culture(s) starts with fully developed seeds and
cattle, all obviously imported from Asia. Though I could concede that
potery may have been developed earlier in Thessaly than in Asia, as the
dates for Thessalian pottery are very early, maybe even predating those
of Syria.
The Sesklo (and directly related cultures) architecture also keeps relation with that of Asia, creating the characteristic tells or magoulas, that are found at both sides of the Mediterranean. Instead one not well understood characteristic of the Danubian offspring
culture is that, though they still use adobe for buildings, their
villages don't form tells anymore. For this and other reasons, Danubian
Neolithic is considered separadtely (though relatedly) from the
Balcanic Neolitic starting at pre-Sesklo.
Finally, ther is the genetic study of Cavalli-Sforza (other studies are
quite concordant too) that show that the major principal component
(PC-1) of the European genome has its strongest concentration in SW
Asia, specifically in Mesopotamia, and that it's gradual dilution
towards the north and the west resenbles strikingly the known pattern
of expansion of Neolithic through the continent.
( source)
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Phallanx
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Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 19:48 |
And the
pre-Sesklo and Sesklo culture(s) starts with fully developed seeds and
cattle, all obviously imported from Asia. Though I could concede that
potery may have been developed earlier in Thessaly than in Asia, as the
dates for Thessalian pottery are very early, maybe even predating those
of Syria. |
Another hypothesis, "all obviously imported from Asia".
How can you support this claim, based on what archeologic finds, why
totally discredit the finds in Gioura of Alonnesos island that give us
the date of 8200BC for domesticated cattle and pigs or the finds in
Frachthi of Argolida that give us decarbonated seeds dated back to
8100BC, I could also mention the fishing hooks found in Gioura dated to
8600BC.
As for genetics, shouldn't we be able to link let's say the Hellines to
the area of Mesopotamia as in your example and if so, why hasn't the
whole debate ended based on this map Cavalli-Sforza presented?
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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strategos
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Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 19:54 |
Europes oldest civilization? I thought the Minoans were already found..
I do mennipos
Edited by strategos
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http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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Menippos
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Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 21:14 |
Probably you mean the Minoans
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CARRY NOTHING
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Maju
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Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 21:30 |
Originally posted by Phallanx
How can you support this claim, based on what archeologic finds, why
totally discredit the finds in Gioura of Alonnesos island that give us
the date of 8200BC for domesticated cattle and pigs or the finds in
Frachthi of Argolida that give us decarbonated seeds dated back to
8100BC, I could also mention the fishing hooks found in Gioura dated to
8600BC. |
Are you sure of those dates? They are totally new for me. Links? Sources?
Fishing hooks? That isn't agriculture.
Still, if your data can be confirmed and is not just another
ultra-nationalistic claim, it will very interesting to fix the whole
hypothesis to that new data, approaching more to the truth, hopefully.
Anyhow, the Near East still predates those findings, I think.
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Phallanx
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Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 21:53 |
Ultra-nationalistic???
What kind of BS is this???
Well it seems like, not only these dates but the history of Hellas is quite new to you, if you ask me.
Anyway, I know of no source that mentions these finds but will look for
one. You see, I didn't copy this off some site, my knowledge of these
finds is by visiting the archeologic sites and talking to the
archeologists. (it's just a 3h boat ride from where I live, Volos)
A simple search gave me this site that mentions the island's history, not much but it'll have to do for now.
http://www.ikion.gr/en/photogallery/map.htm
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Togodumnus
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Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 22:25 |
I have perused many history sites and have yet to find a concensus on
Stonehenge and the Druids.Now I have always thought that it was a
Druid thing!But all the latest info now tells me that it predates
Druidism by a lonnnnngggggg time.But I continue to hear of the two
together.Apparently all this time and nobody knows as yet.
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History is simply the record of mankinds repeated mistakes...and fruitless efforts at redemption.
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Maju
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Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 09:06 |
Originally posted by Togodumnus
I have perused many history sites and have yet to find a concensus on
Stonehenge and the Druids.Now I have always thought that it was a
Druid thing!But all the latest info now tells me that it predates
Druidism by a lonnnnngggggg time.But I continue to hear of the two
together.Apparently all this time and nobody knows as yet.
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The issue is where the druids come from? It's clear that the Celts
found them in Britain and "exported" them to the continent, wuite
succesfully. So after all, proto-druids could be behind Stonehenge,
Avenbury and other sites, after all.
What Stonehenge (c. 2900-2000 BCE) does predate for long is Celtic
Britain, that can only be traced to c. 1300 in the SE and not before
400 BCE in the rest of the territory.
Here is a good link on Stonehenge and Avenbury.
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Maju
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Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 09:18 |
Originally posted by Phallanx
Ultra-nationalistic???
What kind of BS is this??? |
What is BS?
Well it seems like, not only these dates but the history of Hellas is quite new to you, if you ask me.
Anyway, I know of no source that mentions these finds but will look for
one. You see, I didn't copy this off some site, my knowledge of these
finds is by visiting the archeologic sites and talking to the
archeologists. (it's just a 3h boat ride from where I live, Volos) |
I have a rather good overall knowledge of the prehistory, more than
history properly, of all Europe or the Euromediterranean region if you
prefer. I'm not so much focused in specific areas but, logically, I
have a little more knoweldege about my inmediate context (Western
Europe). Still, due to the significance of Greece in the Early
Neolithic and the Bronze and Iron ages, for all the continent, I can't
ignore the prehistory and history of Greece and I am very interested in
finding out everything.
Instead you seem only focused on finding "evidence" that backs your
pre-made ideas of Hellenic continuity through centuries and milennia
and that's is not obviously a scientific attitude but an ideological
one. Hence why I tagged your statements of ultra-nationalistic.
If there is Hellenic continuity since whenver, then it has to be
demonstrated at least reasonably, not just yelled out in an angry
defensive mood.
Why don't you write a good article / start a topic on that issue? I
would find it most interesting, though I start with a difeferent
viewpoint. Maybe you convince me or others by using possitive
argumentations instead of acting defensively/negatively in isolated
efforts that only bring confussion and stress.
A simple search gave me this site that mentions the island's history, not much but it'll have to do for now.
http://www.ikion.gr/en/photogallery/map.htm
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Poor link: turistical, no archaeological references found. Nice pics, though.
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